As many of the regulars on AR have noticed, I am putting myself through the "throes" of selecting an elephant gun. The intended use is to try it out on a PAC hunt, then, if elephant hunting is addictive, use it for more and more and buff and whatever. Also, I have two sons that will go, so we all use the same weapons/ammo to avoid confusion.

I am an engineer and tend to be anal about researching things.
I also tend to like things simple. I do not need fancy wood, just wood that won't crack.
I have ordered Bill Stewart's book.
I have read Boddington's book on guns and cartridges.
I have read about 500 posts on AR about this subject.
I have made several posts on the subject.
I have confused myself.

I need the collective wisdom of the "board" to help me.

Here is the situation -

I like Winchester Model 70's.
I have several in .375 H&H.
I think I need a .416 (Rem or Rigby) or a .458 (WM or Lott) to smote the mighty Jumbo. Maybe even a .404 Jeff.

I can buy a M70 in .416 Rem or in .458 WM. Plenty of ammo available and no modifications needed.

I think I want the .458 Lott which is available in CZ (do not want) or Ruger (maybe). Again, these need a little tuning but on re-manufacturing.

Most posters and a couple of PH's say that - all things being equal - they would take the .458 Lott over the other choices due to "stopping power". Saeed suggested .404 or .416's.

We (sons and I) shoot the .375's very well. We have not tried anything bigger other than a .416 Rem off the bench.

I would prefer to convert a M70 to .458 Lott using an existing .458 WM or a .300 RUM. The problem here is that I have been told by my local guy and another that converting the .458 WM requires work on the action to lengthen it to ensure proper feeding of the .458 Lott cartridge. They also tells me that the .300 RUM (or the 7mm STW) M70 action is the right length (by 1/4") so as not to have to alter the action to make the conversion. However, the gun would need to be re-barrelled and open sights added.

I have never done anything major to a gun before and do not know all of the bear traps to avoid.

I am not particular about guns other than they shoot straight (1" at 100 yds is fine by me), I prefer wood and blue steel.
Other than that, I am happy.

Question:
What would you do and why-

Choices:
Use the .375 H&H
Buy a .416 Rem or .458 WM in M70
Buy a .416 Rigby or .458 Lott in Ruger
Convert M70 to .458 Lott
Convert M70 to .404 Jeff or other

 

The conversion of the .458 Win to .458 Lott in the M70 is as simple as knocking out the spacer in the magazine box and re-chambering.

PH's carry cannons to solve problems caused by poor client shot placement. Do not expect the extra power to in anyway compensate for poor shot placement on ele. If you can shoot a .416 well it is a "better" choice for ele but the .375 is more than adequate.

I shot a .458 Lott in a Ruger over the weekend. After 4 shots I couldn't see a 100 yds! So 1" was out of the question.

Each time I started the pull of the trigger I would recall what my Mom taught me about time travel when I was a kid "If you do that again I'm going to knock you into the middle of next week!"

I voted for the .375 ( big suprise ) I have never hunted elephant, but I have owned a .416, it taught me that if I can't kill it with a .375, it don't need killed : ) All kidding aside, if you shoot the .375 well, it's all the gun you will ever need.

Ganyana is just wrong about his elephant rifle views and history does not support him. While nothing will ever replace shot placement, all but a very few of the elephant greats used large bores of .458" or bigger, sometimes much bigger like a 577 of 600. There is a reason for this, the reason is that not every shot will be perfect. When your shot isn't perfect, more rifle makes a substantial difference.

And the choice should never be extra power or ability to make the shot. It should be both. If the calibre of your rifle is causing you shot placement problems then you need to learn to shoot your rifle so that it becomes tame. If you cannot do this then you need to shoot less rifle.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Ganyana is just wrong about his elephant rifle views...more rifle makes a substantial difference.JPK

I whole-heartedly disagree. I miss is a miss. I don't care if you miss with a 286gr or 500gr projectile. I shot the one elephant I have to my credit with a 375 and would do it again and again with a 9.3 or 375. Took me a minute, but I finally figured out that shot placement and a well-constructed bullet is the key to sorting out elephants.

Dogcat - use the 375 if that is what you are comfortable with.

Now I commit myself to the commencement of the public flogging and the argument to ensure of the "shock" value of the "bigger" big bores.


Brian

Dogcat,
You certainly have been giving this some thought! Hope the elephant hunt is not in the next few months, if so take the .375 H&H and don't look back. But get a removal scope on it, if field conditions so dictate.

If time allows and you know that you may be in thick cover at times, I would invest in a Win Mod 70 --458 Lott, 458 Mag, 416 Rem--in that order and shoot it a plenty and take it along as well. No need to scope it but do take two rifles at least for flexibility. The Lott was available from the custom shop and enough 458"s are floating around in the classic Mod 70. Hasve a gun smith glass bed these things and maybe stick in a cross bolt. Learn to hand load for the 458 and you be able to get up to 2100 fps. The choice of bullet is the challenge.

Good Luck!!

I voted for the M70 in .458 WM and here is why. You are comfortable with the M70 setup, that being the case, stick with what you are comfortable with. The M70 comes in .458 WM, either push feed or CRF. Using the Hornady solids, their muzzle velocity is 2260 fps for the 500 grain solid. That is plenty for an elephant in my opinion given reasonable shot placement. Also, ammo should be readily available if that ever became a problem. I am seriously considering using the same setup for my elephant in August.

You already have the 375. Spend the extra money on ammo so you'll get the shot placement right.

Allout,

This may suprise you but I'm not disagreeing really. If you are going to hunt one elephant, or try one to see if it is your cup of tea, a 375H&H will cut the mustard.

If you go after elephants long enough often enough, you will see that there is a difference between the capabilities of the big bores, the super big bores and the medium bores, just like more than a century's worth of professional hunters have - and I'm not only talking PH's but the real proffesional hunters of old.

If you hunt enough elephants you will find a situation where you won't be sure a light rifle would have saved your skin, but you'll be shooting a big bore if you get there.

I'll add that hitting a four inch circle consitently, reliably, perfectly, everytime at 25yds is a real piece of cake, and hell, an elephants brain is a bigger target than that, so it isn't much of a shooting hurdle. Not so easy seeing that four inch circle three feet behind the hide on a elephant's head.

JPK

MJMines,

I would try a different bullet, or make sure your ammo is loaded with the NEW/OLD steel jacketed solids.

2135fps is very easy to achieve with Woodleigh 500gr solids in the 458wm and plenty for either bull or cow elephants. A STEEL JACKETED Hornaday would be great at this velocity too.

If your rifle likes 450gr Flat Point North Fork Solids, you will find their performance out of a 458wm improves the rifles performance by a whole league or two.

No flys on the properly loaded 458wm!

JPK

I know that there are issues with the Interbonds, but I have not heard any complaints about the Hornady solids, old or new. Am I missing something?

dogcat,

The 458 Lott is a blown out 375 casing...If yoiu have a couple of Win70's take one new barrel and chambering and you are there...
I have shot both buf and bull ele with a Ruger 458 Lott...At 2243fps it is a knockout when impacting a buf on the shoulder with an X bullet rips him apart..
With solids it is really a banger and hard hitter...
Shooting a 458 Lott has a little technique of how to hold and manage the recoil and not get the snot knocked out of you...It works...
Will try to find and post it...
recoil management

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/745103114
Mike

Ganyana -

quote:

If you can shoot a .416 well it is a "better" choice for ele but the .375 is more than adequate.

JPK -

quote:

And the choice should never be extra power or ability to make the shot. It should be both. If the calibre of your rifle is causing you shot placement problems then you need to learn to shoot your rifle so that it becomes tame. If you cannot do this then you need to shoot less rifle.

JPK - I'm not at all sure that you aren't agreeing with Ganyana, without realizing. No one is a greater proponent of large caliber rifles than is Ganyana but never at the sacrifice of hunter effectiveness. His post above addresses the disparate needs of hunter vrs PH and how such may influence the choice of weapon. His record has always indicated strong support for heavier ordnance for buffalo, while placing emphasis in favor of penetration and accuracy, in regard to the visiting hunter of elephant.

I believe you are correct in stating that the move up in caliber should involve both increased power and the ability to employ it effectively but all too often, such is not the case. Thus, Ganyana's guiding rationale.

OH mgod :eek :another anal engineer what you need is a wheel mounted M2 browning with 4 belts of AP's then you will have all alternatives covered and if it doesn't work you can blame it on the spec writer

Dogcat,
I like the 40 cals. I read alot also and like the 416 Rigby, as it has done all that has ever been asked of it. Loaded as a classic ( 400 grain bullet @ 2400 fps ) it's healthy but it doesn't knock you around like the big 45's. Shoot other peoples rifles and choose for your self.
Good luck, Doug

I believe that the more people that you ask the more opinions you will get.
I believe that the more opinions you get that your confusion will not be "sorted out" for you.
I believe that proper elephant rifles begin at about .375 Mag and go up.
I believe you pick one and try it.
I believe if you don't like for whatever reason, you try another.
I believe what I use or have used doesn't fit everyone.

Dogcat,

Your book is in the mail!

If you feel the 375 is inadequate, steeping up to the 416 (in wahtever form) gives you 5000 ft-lbs and is fine for elephant. Same goes for the 458 WM. You don't need a Lott at this stage and most of the PH's I know have 416's!!

As others have implied, shot placement on elephant is what counts, and counts more on them than other animals, IMO. Study the book!

I wouldn't hunt eles with a 375 but 416's seem to be adequate.

You have two obvious choices: use the .375 you already have, or get a same-action .458 WM or Lott. Or both.

That's exactly the setup I run most of the time, near-matching Model 70s in .458WM, .375, .338, .270, and .22-250, plus a Ruger 77-22 (.22 LR) because the safety is the same as a Model 70. Name an animal, and at least two of them are perfectly reasonable responses.

I'm an anal retentive engineer also. Like we say at work, we appreciate redundancy and we repeat ourselves a lot too.

I didn't want a scope on the .458 because I didn't want to get whacked by it, so I use a Williams receiver sight in the rear and a FireSight up front.

Add a mercury recoil reducer and it will stay on a soda can at 50 yards, comes in at about 9.5 pounds, is real handy to carry, and is actually a hoot to shoot with full boat 500 grainers.

........Dogcat;;I,m in the same boat execpt I have quite a bit of experience with the large bores....I voted for the 416 REMINGTON ...I would definately try the 350 gr Barnes Banded solids , North Fork Flat nose .....And GS Flat nose...............................I wouldn,t trust my life to trying to get a rifle to feed the cup point solids.....In a double O.K. But all one needs to do is watch some hunting dvds to see all kinds of gun related problems in the thick of things...............................If you want the biggest easiest to come by Model 70 go with the 470 Capstick,,,Greater frontal area and the same recoil as the 458 Lott...The recoil of the Lott is definately heavier than the 458 Win Mag ,,and it , with heavy bullets is more recoil than the 416 Rem ........................................One thing Pondoro said is," you can only kill an elephant dead,",,,,The comment he was makeing was the debate between the 577 Nitro and the 600 Nitro and how deep they penatrated.....His point was that the 600 penetrated deep enough from any angle he was going to shoot an Elephant at to reliably kill or stun the elephant.......A 450 gr solid in the 458 Win mag.@ 2150-2200 fps will do likewise from every thing I have read and seen ..........................................And apparantly the 400 gr 458 Barnes Super Solid did also...Possibly because it was well stabilized...Actually , to think that a 423 dia 400 gr solid @ 2200 fps will out penetrate a 458 dia 400 gr solid @ 2380 fps is a stretch that I can,t make....But the faster 458 bullet will hit alot harder......,.,.....................................,The 470 Capstick can be loaded to 2200 fps and mild pressure , with a 500 gr bullet it should be about ideal ... The key is what can you shoot well when you are tired ......The 416 is extremely versitile and will shoot plenty flat with bullets like the 330 gr GS HV @ 2800 or , 300 gr Barnes X bullet @ 2900 fps.for every thing other than Elephants and recoil is not a limiting factor.....................................I have and shoot a 458 Lott and I am in the process of converting all my 458 Lott brass into 416 Rem .The rifle will become a 460 Whby.....I,m doing the same with all my 375 brass... and 8 mag brass..................Obviously I like the 458 Win mag .But judgeing by the # of shots it takes to kill these big African animals , I haven,t noticed any difference in the killing ability of a 458 Lott and a 416 Rem...I don,t know if the 470 Cap . is better but it is at least substantially bigger with out more recoil ...or rifle weight ....RIP posted a great report on his 470 Capstick a while ago...............................The 460 Whby is more powerful than the 416 Rem,,at least on Brown Bear.but I dont think the Lott is.......But from the reports it is still a 3 shot Elephant and Cape Buffalo rifle...........If I ever can hunt Elephant , I will use a 500 A-Square or 550 full length Magnum ......But only if I can get so I can shoot them as well as I can my 416 Rem or my little Ruger 458........That is the great thing about this Accurate Reloading forum ,,,So much that can be learned on here....

Ross,

You have a case of "Analysis Paralysis"(I wish I had come up with that) Anyway the sagest advise you will get you've already received from Ganyana. If you shoot the 375's well look no further.

If you are stuck on a new rifle I'd either buy a new 798 Remington in 458 or a M70 if you can find one OR rebarrel one of your existing 375's to 458 WM. The Ruger and the CZ are big clunky POS's in any caliber and you'll need to be a weight lifter to carry them around. I don't recommend either. You'll want trigger work, bedding ,better recoil pads on either the Reminton or Winchester but that's it.

The 458 WM has been one of my favorites for 15 years. The Lott is more power but the recoil increase to gain 150-200 FPS is significant too abusive. I honestly feel in a portable gun of say 9 pounds that the 458 WM is about the limit of recoil that most people can handle. Also if there is another big bore other than the 375 H&H that has readily available factory ammo it is the 458.

I can tell you from personal experience which in many cases with AR experts is dubious that the 458 just knocks the snot out of any buffalo or elephant you point it at and with the new mono metal 450 gr bullets a 458 will give you 2300 fps out of a 24" barrel.

Of course there is nothing wrong with the 416 Remington and I've owned 3 but I only took one to Africa once and it just did not WOW me. After that I took the 458WM or a 375 H&H. Actually those 2 might be the ultimate Afrcan batteries for a safari mostly targeting the big stuff.

Of course this is only my opinion but it is exactly what I would tell a client that asked me.

Mark

A bigger rifle is better than a smaller, but adequate, rifle as long as - and only if - one can shoot the bigger one as well as one can shoot the smaller.

I suggest that you forget about converting anything!

Click on the link below.
Elephant Rifle

Buy that one or one just like it. If you are PAC you couldn't ask for a round more steeped in African Lore and elephant cropping!
Spend the rest of your money on Trophy Fees and good Single Malt Whisky!
Quit worrying!

Recently I was in Zimbabwe for a few weeks and I asked my friend (who lives there; hunts himself and has been a PH for 29 years and owns a battery of DG rifles) what his favorite caliber was, and he replied ".416 Rem." I asked him why and he told me his favorite animal to hunt was the Elephant, and the .416 Rem., had enough to do the job day in and day out. "What about your .460 Wby?" He said it gives him a bad headache to shoot. I voted for .416 Rem., because of his opinion and my decision to buy it as my first DG rifle based on results and a number of like opinions. I do take others advice seriously, especially some of the members here. They walk the walk. So take mine with a grain of salt. Recoil, availability and price of ammo (I do not reload..yet) were other considerations. I can speak from experience having examined a number of Ele skulls. I spent 18 years in the Taxidermy field. Shot placement and bullet construction = dead game. Good hunting, LDK

Nickudu,

Perhaps you are right. But there are alot of good reasons to learn to shoot more rifle, and it doesn't take that long. PH's are failable, and may not even have the opportunity for the shot that saves your bacon. Best to rely on your own rifle. Best not to pretend that anyones' every shot is an internet quality shot.

MJines,

Hornaday is switching back to steel jackets for their solids - they wouldn't be doing it if the bras? jacketed bullets were working. I have heard of instances where the brass? jacketed solids just didn't make the grade. No first hand experience though.

For the 375 and 416 crowd,

Watch Zimbabwe PH Buzz Charlton's DVD "Hunting the African Elephant", which is great and great fun to watch. Count the number of times he says, after shooting an elephant with his 416, "If I'd been shooting a 500 grain bullet, that elephant would have dropped."

Buzz is making the move to more rifle, for a reason.

JPK

JPK

JPK, where is Buzz Charlton's video available for purchase? I've heard lots of good stuff about it.

Rowland Ward had the Buzz video in stock last time I checked.

Whitworth,

Here is a link to Charlton McCallum Safaris. There are instructions on the site, and a preview featuring our own 500 Grains!

http://www.cmsafaris.com/

JPK

As for calibers:

1. Large calibers do not necessarily compensate for poor shot placement, but they can knock the ele down so that you have time for a 2nd shot. There is no grace period when you miss the brain with a small caliber.

2. Small calibers can compensate for a hunter who feels he cannot effectively manage the recoil of a large caliber.

"small caliber" = .416 on down.



There is a definite difference between what a casual client can get away with and what might save a PHs life when things go bad. If a client feels comfortable with a .375, then he should get on a plane and go hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

For the 375 and 416 crowd,

Watch Zimbabwe PH Buzz Charlton's DVD "Hunting the African Elephant", which is great and great fun to watch. Count the number of times he says, after shooting an elephant with his 416, "If I'd been shooting a 500 grain bullet, that elephant would have dropped."

JPK

That is pure speculation on Buzz's part. It is difficult to prove such declarative statements and there are many PH's around with tons of elephant experience that use 416's.

And Dogcat doesn't NEED anything bigger.

And if one can shoot, they don't either.

On an early season hunt after an Ele in a group amongst the jesse bush, one feels happy with a 416+ caliber.

As Mr Stuart says "Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

ozhunter

I've never shot an elephant, but I understand that it's a close-up sort of affair in general. I think the 404 Jeffery is a great option (I have one on a Model 70 action) with tolerable levels of recoil but still shooting a 400 grain .423 caliber bullet. With modern bullets it ought to be better today then when all the game rangers in East Africa were using it.

I have 6 416 rem mag rifles.I love the model 70 Winchester the best of all.I have a bunch of remington model 700s in it also but I trust the winchester a whole lot more.I have shot around 2500 rounds of 416 rem mag loads.I usually shoot 350 gr speer bullets in a reduced load of 76 grains of reloader 15.This gets me use to my rifle and is not a bad load for game up to moose.I like the barnes 400 gr monlithic bullets for the heavy stuff they shoot very well in my rifle.I shot alot of the 410 gr woodleigh bullets also.I can shoot my rifle 150 times in a day with these reduced loads and two past pads in a standing bench position.I learn from Elmer Keith books how to kinda roll with the recoil.My 416s kick less than alot of the 375s I have shot.I think it has more of a push recoil.I also use a 60 pound bull bag off of the bench to hold the gun on top of a milk crate.I also do alot of off hand shooting and shoot 4 shots as fasyt as I possibly can and still hit the target.I have gotten really good with my 416s and sold my 458s that have become hard to get brass for.I stocked up on 416 rem mag brass and I can reload a box with new brass for around $25 with the speer 350 gr bullets.I love to shoot these big guns.The model 70 has a good stock.I think my kevelar stocked guns actually kick a little less.I finally had a stainless one with a muzzle break on it.It feels like shooting a 30-06 .I usually dont hunt with breaks on my guns though.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Ganyana is just wrong about his elephant rifle views and history does not support him. While nothing will ever replace shot placement, all but a very few of the elephant greats used large bores of .458" or bigger, sometimes much bigger like a 577 of 600. There is a reason for this, the reason is that not every shot will be perfect.
JPK

................and the larger the cartridges gets, the less likely that the shot will be perfect!

There are always two ways to look at any thing, and in this case If the CLIENT HUNTER can shoot his 375 H&H very well, and doesn't Choke under pressure, it is fine for ele!

Like JPK, I, personally would rather have somthing in the .458, or larger range up to a point! That point being nothing larger that a 500NE double. However, if all I could shoot properly was a 375 H&H with 300 gr solids, then I wouldn't be unduely worried about the outcome of the close shooting Elle bull.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

For the 375 and 416 crowd,

Watch Zimbabwe PH Buzz Charlton's DVD "Hunting the African Elephant", which is great and great fun to watch. Count the number of times he says, after shooting an elephant with his 416, "If I'd been shooting a 500 grain bullet, that elephant would have dropped."

JPK

That is pure speculation on Buzz's part. It is difficult to prove such declarative statements and there are many PH's around with tons of elephant experience that use 416's.

And Dogcat doesn't NEED anything bigger.

And if one can shoot, they don't either.

Will,

Ron Thomson, Richard Harlan, Roger Whittall, Ian Natchens...your hero John Taylor and even you have made poor shots. Those with the most experience most all used .458" and bigger rifles because of the significant difference in the impact effect of a large bore over a medium bore.

Buzz is not merely speculating, he is drawing on his extensive experience. Not only that but he is making the switch himself.

Hell, Will, even you are making the switch.

JPK

dogcat
I have taken elephant with the 450 No2, 450/400 3 1/4", and the 9,3x74R.

Since you already have the 375 I would go with the 458 Win Mag or the 458 Lott.

There are several bullets avialable for deer and pig hunting and plinking in the .458 bore size so yuou can practice with the big gun a lot.

When hunting elephant a 500gr Solid at 2050 to 2150 fps will do just fine.
Or a 450gr North Fork Flat Point at @2200fps.

No real need to shoot a 500gr at 2300+ un less you just want to and the recoil does not bother you.

Nothing wrong with a 416 either, but for a persons forst big bore I like the .458 bore as bullets and brass are cheap.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

For the 375 and 416 crowd,

Watch Zimbabwe PH Buzz Charlton's DVD "Hunting the African Elephant", which is great and great fun to watch. Count the number of times he says, after shooting an elephant with his 416, "If I'd been shooting a 500 grain bullet, that elephant would have dropped."

JPK

That is pure speculation on Buzz's part. It is difficult to prove such declarative statements and there are many PH's around with tons of elephant experience that use 416's.

And Dogcat doesn't NEED anything bigger.

And if one can shoot, they don't either.

Will,

Ron Thomson, Richard Harlan, Roger Whittall, Ian Natchens...your hero John Taylor and even you have made poor shots. Those with the most experience most all used .458" and bigger rifles because of the significant difference in the impact effect of a large bore over a medium bore.

Buzz is not merely speculating, he is drawing on his extensive experience. Not only that but he is making the switch himself.

Hell, Will, even you are making the switch.

JPK

JPK,

As to Dogcat, for his first elephant he doesn't NEED anything other than a 416. You are listing guys (Thomson, Harland) that had the choice of the battery of game departments, either a 458 WM or a 458 WM.

Taylor and Nyschens were shooting doubles and the 416's were not around, not that they would have chisen one.

Bigger is always better, and I have never denied that.

As to bigger guns, I started off using a 470 and am playing with another now, but only because it has a single trigger. Do I need it, or the Lott, over my 416? Not really. It is just to play.

As much as I like to disagree with Ganyana , accurate shooting with a 416 beats flinch with a Lott. But there is nothing wrong with choosing a 458 WM, as it will not kick anymore than the typical 416.

That is a choice that can be confusing, i would have taken a 375 with heavy bullets like 350 grain woodleigh solids, the yhave excellent pentration aswell as a good KO capacity, but no matter what you pick shoot with it plenty before you go on a trip , and reload it fast from the shoulder alos is fine training for your hunting skils

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Allout,

This may suprise you but I'm not disagreeing really. If you are going to hunt one elephant, or try one to see if it is your cup of tea, a 375H&H will cut the mustard.

JPK

Will,

See the quote above.

I don't think we disagree all that much, except for maybe on the degree of utility of the big bores over the mediums.

JPK

I have not shot elephant, so my experience is based on buffalo and plains game. As a shooter of both the .458 Lott and the .375 H&H, I voted for the .416 Remington on the Model 70 action. I love my .458 Lott and can shoot it well. The rifle fits me and I have the sentimental issue that the builder is a good friend. However, I have seriuosly considered rebarreling it to .416, which I think is a much more practical round that is easier to shoot and does not abuse one as much. In my opinion, as long as you can manage the recoil, the .416 Remington with 400-grain bullets will do virtually everything the .375 H&H will with 300-grain bullets, but the converse is not true.

Dave