I am looking for a bit of advice/insight from guys who have a good understanding of African conditions and game and at the same time have personally shot a fair deal with lighter calibers. Where you have shot them is not important as long as you have used them and personally can comment on their performance. I know there is always the exception/handload/extreme but i am really looking for the general perfromance to make a good comparison. I am looking at getting a light rifle to use on springbuck,mtn reedbuck,bushbuck sized game. I wont say for long range shooting because that is relative but am looking at shots out to 350 yards. I also want my youngsters to be able to shoot with it as at the moment i have a .30-06 and the recoil is a bit heavy for youngsters. Our licenecing procedure is onerous to say the least and already having a number of other rifles i will have to put forward a good motivation. I have nailed it down to 2 calibers
(1) 243 win and (2) 270 Win
Comments and advice please

Scott, I have used both calibers you are considering quite a lot.

In my opinion, the 270 is too heavy for the application you suggest and has recoil much closer to a 30/06 than a 243. For a dedicated light game rifle out to the range you suggest, a 243 with 85-100 grain bullets is perfect.

You can always fit it with a moderator to further reduce muzzle blast/recoil, though this negatively impacts the handling of the rifle.

Just my opinion, but most 'young' (how young?) hunters will probably find the 270 harder to shoot accurately than a 243.

I think you have conflicting parameters but the good news is I think some judicious handloading would rescue the day. Much as I love my 243s but I would call it a day at 300yards and a bit earlier than that on larger game. if you truly want to go out to 350yards then I don't think the 243 is what would immediately spring to mind.

Neither does the 270 spring to mind for a pleasant shooting rifle for a youngster but I see no reason why it can't be made at least as pleasant as that renowned sweet shooter the 6.5x55 with some moderate loading. A 110gr TSX wasn't designed for 270 use but by all accounts works well. Load it moderately for you kids and keep the range down for them.

For yourself you can load it to do what it was designed for - flat shooting at medium game. I've not been to Africa (but I've shot a heap of game with a 243) but my African friend has and swears by his 270 as did most of his mates.

For the light game you mention - the .243 sounds great- except that it is alot more wind sensitive than the .270

Where I live, 7mm is the legal minimum for anything bigger than impala, but that is only one country out of alot of hunting . Handloading with Barnes TSX or Gerrard Shultz's bullets will make the .243 do things it wasn't ment to though...so my vote is the .243 When your kids are big enough to hunt bigger game and handle a heavier rifle and or recoil you can always buy them a 280 rem or 7mm mag - which will out perform the .270.

243 with a Barne's bullet will be an absolute killer on the small antelope and will shoot a long way...


Mike

With the kids in the picture and their recoil level at this time the 243 is the answer with good bullets that Ganyana mentioned in the 95-105 grainage.

I've not shot African animals with the 243 but have taken my fair share of deer with it here in the UK.

The 243 with 85-100grain bullet will do for any of those animals, and in my mind is a far easier calibre to intruduce children to game with than the 270. However it's application at 350m on such game turns it from a beginners tool to an experts tool IMHO.

I wouldn't ideally really want to use it on bigger game though like Wildbeast, kudu etc. If these are on the cards in the near future and given the licencing restrictions you mentioned I would probably tend towards a 6.5mm calibre . with a 140grain bullet you can be more comfortable that the gun is easy enough to shoot for a beginner if loaded correctly, while having enough potential for the kids to grow into it.

rgds,
FB

I would go with the 243, using good bullets. My son has a 243 which is just a flat ass killer. Using Nosler Balistic Tip it has flattened Red Stag on the Hill, Sika and Fallow. I have not used it in Africa but form my other experiences I do believe it would be excellent on antelope up to and including Blesbok. I am sure with proper shot (Barnes Xs) placement it would do Kudu & Hartebeast. I would think it would be challenged on Zebra and Gemsbok.

My choice would be the 7x57 Mauser, its a time proven caliber..If I had to pick one light caliber that I had to shoot Springbuck and Elephant with it would be the 7x57.

Of the two you mention I would opt for the .270 with 130 gr. Noslers. I am not fond of the .243. The .270 is mild of recoil and about anyone can shoot it and you just might stumble upon a huge Kudu or Eland and decide to take the shot and the extra always helps.

I don't understand why people gravitate toward the 243 as a kid's rifle. It has a lot of muzzle blast, velocity is in the varmint class not the big game class. I suppose the wide availability of ammo is a factor but most of the factory ammo isn't up to shooting big game. Yes, it will kill deer-sized game but it has very limited "growth" potential beyond that. Same said for 6mm Rem.

If you are a reloader, I would look at the 25 calibers, esp. the 257 Roberts. You can go up to 117 grain bullets in that caliber. The 6.5x55 is another excellent choice. In the 7mm bore, the 7x57 is a safe bet as is the 7-08. This new 6.8 round is also promising but ammo availability is dicey.

Of the two calibers you suggest, I would pick the 270 and load it down to begin with.

I have a good friend who is a PH/Outfitter in Zimbabwe. He started both his sons on a 243 and they have been very successful with it. I personally don't care for the caliber and use a 7x57 for my light rifle for ALL plains game with a 175gr Nosler Partition. The lighter weight bullets make for less recoil and flatter trajectory and are effective on any plains game you might run into. I also like the 257 Roberts very much and have thought of taking one to Africa several times.

.243 is a fine choice for springbok, mtn. reedbuck, reedbuck, blesbuck etc and takes thousand of these animals in Southern Africa every season with no problem.

Of course good bullets only make it better...

I would not contemplate biger game than this size class with a .243, but for this size class it works very well.

Scott, personally, I use a .223 on all of my light African game. It really thumps the game you mention, plus it performs outstandingly on varmints. My PH grabbed mine last year and shot 3 Dassie's in quick succession at 200 yards. He'd never fired my rifle before, I just told him it was dead on at 200. Our Tracker that day was delighted at the feast he would have that night.
You asked about two calibers and I agree with the .243, but only with tough bullets. Most available .243 over the counter ammo is too light, and expansion is way too rapid. I'd want a tougher bullet made for medium game. Then I wouldn't worry. I've seen far too many animals grievously wounded with "varmint bullets" in a .243 and sold as "Deer loads." Enjoy your hunt, David

There are three other "mild ctg" candidates that come to mind that are very rarely mentioned for Africa:

1. the venerable 30-30. This is the consummate brush round for deer-sized critters. No good beyond 150 but kids shouldn't be taking long shots at anyway. With the new "leverevolution" ammo it will zap them out to 200. Pretty much dictates a lever action though and make sure you put a pad on it, unless you want to try a custom single shot (whatever happened to all those Martinis we all used on the school shooting teams in RSA?). I am a big fan of single shots for a kid's first rifle.

2. the 7.62x39. Not sure what ammo availability is like with hunting bullets but again, a very nice short range number.

3. If lever rifles are something that interest you, in addition to the 30-30, the 44 magnum is an interesting brush round with minimal recoil in a rifle and plenty of power for small and medium game. This one won't be any good on Springbok though, unless they are driven and the stand is good.

Regarding rifles, it's worth noting that the Steyr Mannlichers with the syn stock has adjustable LOP from about 13.5" to 14.5". They also make a 22" bbl version.

I hunt the very species you mention regularly with both .243 and .270 and would without doubt chose the .270 first if I could use only one rifle. Shoots harder (I like the 150 grainers, but 140 or even 130 with good bullets just as effective) and handles wind better.
Those long shots need to be avoided with whatever you are shooting.
If recoil is a factor I would rather look at a 260 Rem or something similar.

It appears from your post that you live in So. Africa. If so, my recollection is that .243 is a common number there, and popular with my friends in the Cape for Mt Reedbuck, Vaal Rhebok, and Springbok for culling and hunting. I must add; however, that these men can shoot very well and are seldom anywhere but dead on. The 6.5 Swede is virtually unknown in RSA.

The other calibers which are spin-offs from the .308Win (.358 and 7mm-08) are also relatively rare in RSA, although the 308 is common. (My personal choice here in the US would be the 7mm-08.)

You don't say how big your children are, but they begin to grow like weeds about the time they get big enough to handle a center fire rifle. Therefore, picking a number you can load down for their early years and then gradually move up and extend their range is probably a good way to go.

Because it is important to find a rifle that fits, I'd select something like a Rem 700 or Mod 7 youth model or similar rifle for which extra stocks can be obtained inexpensively or a '98 Mauser where a mil surp stock can be whittled down to size.

I would be highly inclined to move up a notch to the 308 because (1) it can be loaded down with a 130gr bullet and shoot like a 7.62x39 (AK round), (2) loaded down, it will have less muzzle blast plus more weight and less recoil than a 30-30 (or 243) would have, (3) be enough gun out to 150yds which should be the limit for a youngster anyhow, and (4) components and ammo are common and you can continue to use it for many years to come without the hassles of reregistration.

My experience with the 270 in Africa was that there is nothing it can do that a 30-06 cannot do better, while it offers no real reduction in recoil. I have no personal experience with the 243, but my observation of young people shooting them here is that we spend a lot of time hunting for deer that were shot with them. The 243 demands a very good bullet that will expand and not punch through. Kudude

I'd go with the .270 hands down, if all possible the 270 WSM, let any kid shoot it for a while and he/she will get used to it. The .270 WSM is one of the flattest shooting calibers out (med. bores) The 7mm STW is another.

The 243 being as you have the ammo in RSA already. I built one on a Sako action for daugher years ago and with 100 grain bullets she had killed a number of deer.
I am also a fan of the 260 Rem. and the 7/08 all of which I think all children could shoot without becoming afraid of recoil. Being as ammo for the 243 is easier for you to find then that answers the question for me. If I could start them on one caliber I would say a 120 grn. 7/08. in something akin to a Rem. Mod. 7. They might never have to change guns again until they start shooting the much bigger critters. We own and shoot all three calibers mentioned.

I've used both the 257 Robert's and the 7x57 in africa on the smaller antelope and they both worked great. I even kill a waterbuck with one shot using my 7x57.
The 7x57 shooting a 120ge Barnes TS would make a great rig for a young person. Shot a very big mulie and a black bear with this combo and was very happy with the results

I'm in the .270 camp on this one. I really like the .257 Roberts, but I just don't think you can beat the .270, and it has more killing power than the .243, which to me, is added insurance for African game.

Scott

I have had excellent results on deer and wild pigs with Federals low recoil 170gr load in the 30-06 and Remingtons managed recoil load in the 308.

My 10 year old nephew has killed deer and pigs with that load in 308.

It recoils less than a 243.

They are good out to 200 yards.

They make managed recoil loads for the 270 as well.

However for the kids, out to 350 yards with full power loads I would go with the 243.

We used both on our trip to RSA. THe .270 was used on springbok, kudu, wildebeast and nyala. The .243 was used on impala, kudu, springbok and vervets. No problems. Used Nosler Partions in each (100gr in the .243 and 150 gr in the .270). Hit the right spot and they go down.

I thought long and hard about a 243 when starting the three kids out, but luckily, I talked myself out of it. Went with a 7MM-08, and used 120 grain bullets to start with for deer and antelope, then gradually worked up to good quality 140's and 160's when they started elk hunting.

The 308 is a great case to utilize, and the 7MM caliber only makes it better.

I love both calibers, I've shot dozens of deer, 3 black bears and 2 elk with a .243. Traded up to a .270 when I moved ot Montana because of the out chance of a grizzly encounter. I found that putting a Pachmayer declerator pad on my .270 reduced the felt recoil to less than a .243 without a pad. They also sell reduced recoil (lighter loads) for the .270 now if you're not a handloader. I'd vote for the .270. Shoot 130g Noslers a few grains below max. My 12 year old learned on it when he weighed 100 lbs and did absolutely fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
My choice would be the 7x57 Mauser, its a time proven caliber...to that statement, Atkinson!

A 243 is too easily "upset" by the smallest of twigs or grass as well and seeing as you mention bushbuck this is always a possibility.

Scott, you mention the onerous licence procedures, and I assume you are talking about South Africa. Good news is that lately licences seem to be going through quite easily for hunting guns. I just got 3 more through in 5 months and a friend told me yesterday that his 25-06 came through in 8 weeks! Don't describe any one gun as a "do-it-all" calibre though; that makes it hard to motivate the need for another similar one. And keep the motivation to a simple one page.

What about a 25-06?

Gerard makes a 80gr HV which shoots really well in a rifle of mine........

You can load it with light bullets such as that and move up to 115 TSX if you need it and the recoil is not much heavier than a 243...

Thanks for all the input. Just to clarify one point which may have been of concern to some. I do NOT intend letting kids shoot out to 350 yards. I am looking for a light flat shooter for myself that can take that kind of shot only when necessary and at the same time have a gun that the kids can start with that doesnt recoil much and can be built light.

split the difference 25-06 would be perfect and can be fairly common Klemps in kimberly usually stocks this

I have a 243 and i love it to bits. if you hand load it it makes it much better i use GSC 69gr bullets and sierra Gamekings.

if i had to buy a rifle today in that class it will definitely be a 6.5x55 especialy the fact that sons will be useing it we have several guys at the club using them and with great results. the determining factor is the range of bullets you use and the sectional density of the calibre.the 7X57 is also a great choice

if you are in sa my nr is 0824642436

Look at either the 6.5X55 or the 260 rem (6.5 on 308) The 260 is built on a short action. The BC and SD of 6.5 bullets will provide deep penetration, and little wind drift. There are bullets designed for elk and moose, that don't require 3000 fps. You will have to reload. If the kids will shoot off sticks build a 8.5 lb rifle and carry it for them!

JD

How about just getting "reduced recoil loads" for your .30-'06? My wife uses them in her Tikka T3 w/great results on wild pigs! She says the recoil is less than her 20ga. O/U! Don't know if you can get the Remington load over there, if not, maybe a client could bring a few boxes over and leave them?
If you use reduced loads in the 3006 now, your child can use an already familiar rifle w/full power loads when the time comes.
Robert

The problem I have with any 6MM is they sometimes fail to leave a blood trail and I have had to trail up too many animals that took a decent hit and sometimes it was a very hard tracking job..

I have shot a lot of big game with my lovely little 6x45 that shoots a 75 gr. bullet at 2900 FPS, and I have never had a problem but I always limited my shots to under 200 yards, broadside, and place the bullet correctly and only use it in "open country" where I can watch them run off and die. Sometimes they run 75 yards and not leave a drop of blood. I have also seen this many times with a .243 and the 6mm Rem...

Based on that I like the 30 calibers like the .308 and 30-06 and you can load them down. The 7x57 and .270 are great options also.

Thanks everyone for your input and advice. I have a lot to think about and may reconsider my initial choice between only 2 calibers.

Thanks

count me in for the 25-06, my neighbor took his to RSA to hunt and he had no problem filling his bag with impala, springbok, etc.

Scott

If you have decided to consider other options then, if you are looking for something uniquly African consider the 270 Sabi.

http://www.sabirifles.co.za/270sabi.htm

Look at the recoil comparison in the lower right corner of their web page!

I have hunted in the company of one of these little calibres and was VERY impressed.

You have not yet mentioned if you are a reloader and how old your youngsters are. That info would certainly help formulate "opinions" with more light than heat!

Of course, you could always split the difference and get a .260 Rem. -- recoils like a .243 but hits more like a .270.

I think The .260 rem is a 308 necked to a 6.5 and the 243 a 308 necked to 6mm