I was on an Alaskan board lately and I came across one of those "Is a .44 big enough for bear" threads. Even though the topic has been rehashed around 7,000 times, my Adamic nature still enjoys all the flames the topic generates. Anyway, one of the esteemed posters trotted out the (inevitable) "people kill em' all the time with bows at a couple hundred feet per second, so surely a .22-250 is adequate!" line of argument. He then claimed to know "lots" of people who had killed elephant with a bow. While the poster is clearly an idiot, it got me thinking. Is it really possible to know "lots" of people who have killed an elephant with a bow? I'll concede its been done, but "lots"? How often does this happen? When Wynwood was making a fool out of himself, he posted a photo of one with a bunch of arrows in him so clearly its possible. Please enlighten me.

Just ignore everything W has posted. A lot of his "experience" is pure bunk and made up. If you're serious, contact Ann of Aspen Hills. She would've gone a bow hunt for ele except that she hurt her collar bone on her right side. If anyone knows whether this is feasible, she'd be the one to contact.

There is a DVD "Death by arrow" a guy takes an Elephant with a bow and alot of other African game aniamls.

I'm not quite sure I understand the point of hunting such a large animal with a bow. Is it merely for accomplishment's sake? It's certainly not for the animal's sake.

What kind of arrow do you use to stop a charge on an elephant???? Maybe you could get some arrows with C-4 strapped to them.

How about we all just use enough gun and not let them suffer!

Having been present on the second set of Zim parks bow hunting trials and having guided a client after ele with a bow, I think I can make an informed comment.

A modern compound bow, 100lb peak draw weight, with 750grn arrows is marginal.

To get a clean kill- The elephant must be broadside on, Near side leg raised to expose the hert, yet not moving. If the animal is moving, the arrow is usualy deflected- it has 20" of hide and meat to go through before it gets into the lung and if the animal is walking there is enough movement to twist the arrow backwards and they seldom even get into the lung let alone reach the heart.

If conditions are perfect you could probably get away with an 80lb bow

Also, an arrow in the lungs is seldom effective. an Eles lungs do not collapse when punctured and if they can survive 30 AK bullets a single arrow is minimal unless a major artery is hit. Generally, the arrows fail to go in all the way, and the ele reaches round with its trunk and pulls them out.

Following fairly extensive trials Zim put bow hunted Ele on special permit only when they legalised bow hunting generally in 1997.

Of all the bow hunted ele that have been done in Zim since 1998 (47) 38 have fallen to a bullet at the end of the day.

38/47 = 80% failure rate.

Wow. Thanks Ganyana! 38/47 does not make a hunt like this too ethical eh! I would also be curious about the degree to which the other 9 elephants looked like pin cushions when all was said and done. Most unfortunate.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

This is way out of my league but I have read and reread one of Fred Bears books in which he hunts just about every living thing with his bow.

He took an elephant with bow and arrow, but from what I recall it was a quartering away shot at close range with a an arrow hear desinged to cut the insides so cleanly that it would at least penetrate to the liver if not on into a lung.

I think it was a 24 hour blood trail to find the dead beast, so maybe it does not count... ?

The DVD i watched the hunter and PH shot an arrow into the Elephant skull before the hunt,it went nearly right through.Balla Balla lend me the DVD and would know more about it.

If the arrow penetrates properly you have a dead ele in a couple of hundred yards or less.

If any of you can dig out the 1950 Tarzan moovie you will see my father shoot an ele with a bow- for real. It was their second attempt and the ele ran 80 paces and stoped, spraying blood everywhere. Bow was a 110lb draw recurve with 1535grn arrows. Bull was at about ten paces. The two sucessful trial hunts I watched both bought the ele down quickly - as quick as any .375 bullet in the same place. the problem is finding "that spot" - see Garry larson's cartoon of the cave men with the mamoth- "gee make a note of that spot!"

In many ways- I am very against bow hunting ele or hippo. It is about the same as using a .22 savage. It will work, can be done - but not reliably. On the other hand, getting in that close is certainly exciting, but if that arrow fails to penetrate far enough for any reason, you stand a good chance of a charge.

contact Tink Nathan, retired PH he has killed 3 for certain I am aware of and I think 1 or 2 others with his bow...Tink is known by that name 'cause he only stands about 5' tall in boots!
Make this post on Bowsite.com and you'll get the real answer without the unbiased "coffee can of powder & cannon ball" logic that would rather see a ele shot in the hip as it runs away from you than the bow shooters whom sneak in ARCHERY close to lace a heart/lung with a shaft!
to whomever made the post about it being an accomplishment thing cause it is not to the benefit of the ele....I ask is shooting to break a leg bone or hip joint to the benefit of the ele once you have blown the brain shotand the ele is running away, more to his benefit????

last Bull was witha 105# Oneida and a 1700 grain arrow witha Jerry Hill BH

Almsot had a pass thru went thru first rib hit for rib On my Video to be rerelased this fall Tink Nathan

Dr B ...sorry for the 5'/boots "short comment" I only pray I'll be as tough as you when I get to your age. cats

I am not at all in favor of bow hunting. My two favorite hunting buddies are bow hunters. Both have been doing it for years. Both lose as many animals as they take. I cannot see the attraction nor the sport in this.

I walk around after anterless season here in Pa and find quite a few deer that were gut shot by rifle hunters lying around too! Does that mean all gun hunters are just into wounding not capable of a clean kill???
Your point as to archers wounding rates has been proven wrong so many times it is funny anyone even mentions it anymore.

The following picture is demonstrative of why hunting elephant with a bow might not be a good idea!

While I was not hunting elephants, I was bow hunting (note the fletchings in the bottom left). When this tuskless cow decided that I needed to move, I did so quite quickly, btw.



For those of you who have seen this picture before, I apologize, but it does make a point!

My wife's great uncle Bob Swinehart (deceased) killed the big five with a long bow. It's been a few years since I read his book, but I believe he was backed up on one animal. He then successfully bow killed the species to complete his big five. His big five included a Black Rhino.

Personally I prefer a big bore.

Bryan

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
The following picture is demonstrative of why hunting elephant with a bow might not be a good idea!

While I was not hunting elephants, I was bow hunting (note the fletchings in the bottom left). When this tuskless cow decided that I needed to move, I did so quite quickly, btw.



For those of you who have seen this picture before, I apologize, but it does make a point!

Where's a 45-70 when u need one!

Get a copy of Gary Bogner's video. He takes the Big 6, all with a bow.

I've taken lots of animals with a bow and been a PH on quite a few water buffalo hunts with both bow and gun. There are a lot of things to consider and probably the most important is the guy behind the bow. Just because someone wants to and can afford to, dosn't mean that they are ready to do it, or ever will. I have no urge to hunt elephant, but I have taken buffalo and it does hold my attention. Every animal on the planet has been taken with a bow and most way more than have been taken with firearms, don't forget bows have almost a 30,000 year headstart! One of the current problems is that many bowhunters really don't understand how an arrow kills and they get caught up in the "compound bow high speed syndrome", they just cannot believe faster is not better. It isn't. For big animals you need a very heavy, small diameter arrow with a proper head. Everything done right, many animals will fall faster with an arrow than with a bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by fusino:
I'm not quite sure I understand the point of hunting such a large animal with a bow. Is it merely for accomplishment's sake? It's certainly not for the animal's sake.

Is killing an animal ever for the animals sake?? Unless it is putting the beast out of it's misery, or controlling of numbers, I would say it is allways for the sport and the food in it. But maybe that is just me.

It's a hunt that can be done but my guess is not that it would be easy. I've seen Gary Bogner's video, he did it right. But as already said, one needs a very powerful bow and heavy arrows. They need to be an expert shot and NOT subject to "buck fever". Obviously such a hunt requires a certain amount of dedication and perserverance.

As a bow hunter my goal is to make certain I have a killing shot. For those of you who know people that loose a lot of animals I would offer they are not careful hunters.

However, I am a "do it all" hunter and no matter if it is a shot gun, a high power rifle, a bow, muzzleloader, etc, I use the same principle. Making sure I have a killing shot and nothing marginal. I've had PH's tell me they hate hunting with me because they don't get to shoot anything. Well, that's what we should all strive for no matter the choice of weapon.

If I were able to work up to a proper archery set up for elephant I would do it. But only after evaluating myself and testing my own skills over and over. Whether elephant or deer, a game animal should be treated with the same respect and such a hunt should never be done if you are at a marginal skill level.

When I flew out of the Chifuzi bush strip in March after a sucessful Zim PAC elephant hunt, I ran into a client (I refuse to call him a hunter) that was braging about hitting a cow elephant in the head with an arrow and losing it after tracking it for a couple of days. He also lost a baboon and left a hippo porpoising in Lake Kariba with an arrow in it's head. I understand he makes broadheads for a living. If he is an example of an archery professional then they should be banned from DG hunting.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
What kind of arrow do you use to stop a charge on an elephant???? Maybe you could get some arrows with C-4 strapped to them.

How about we all just use enough gun and not let them suffer!

Doesn't the majority of the beasts we kill "suffer"? Instant death, is something I have only accomplished when killing small game like birds and rabbits. That is, except from an occasional headshot on deersized game.

Ann... You said it!! hear,hear.



Niels

Niels

Some research done by wwf some years back showed that most herbivores release so much adrenaline on being shot that they feel nothing for 20-30 minutes. Most herbivores are destined to be torn to shreds whilst still alive by hyaenas or wild dogs anyway.

Even the predators are short on feelings and heavy on the endorphin release on being hit.

Elephants were the exception (not that they studied all animals). They feel about like us - but what does that mean? I felt only a heavy blow on being shot (ak bullet at 5 paces). Half an hour later I was a very sore man. My best friend took an ak bullet in the leg and knew all about it from that moment on!

I have found most people whom make wild claims about wounding with a bow just are ignorant of how effective archery gear is

With archery hunting I have noticed the following. If the broadhead contacts bone the impact is "felt" by the target far more quickly. If the broadhead passes through, between the ribs, the animal reacts to the sound of the bow and the sound of the arrow as it comes towards them but I don't think they "feel" the arrow going through them.

If you have ever stood down range next to a archery target, while obviously behind a solid barrier, you would be amazed to hear what in incoming arrow sounds like.

That's how animals jump the string. The arrow sounds like a missile. It's very loud. The shooter cannot hear the sound as it is moving away from us. This brings on the importance of being as close as possible to the targeted animal when bow hunting.

My recent kudu kill was videod and in slow-mo you can see his whole side beginning to bunch up, in reaction to hearing the arrow come. It passed through him like a hot knife through butter. I don't honestly think he felt the arrow, but I know he heard it coming. Later that day I killed a big 24 inch impala and know he felt the arrow as it shattered the off side forarm.

Just like that kudu could hear the arrow coming, I also know before an arrow hits an animal that it is dead. I can see where it is going to hit.

Game hit in the vitals with a broadhead bleed out very quickly, with in seconds and pass out before death. There is no oxygen reaching the brain. There is no hydrostatic shock to the nervous system.

In comparing arrow hits with bullet hits, well my experience (read MY) shows a much stronger reaction from targeted animals to bullet impact. I am sure a lot of it has to do with the sound of the firearm but the resulting hydrostatic shock and bone crushing trauma caused by a high power metal projectile must also be "felt" far more than an arrow.

My gun shot animals have run further than anything I've nailed with an arrow. I don't spine game and the only neural hit I can personally recall is my recent ele cow hunt. I am quite certain such a wound is not felt by the receiver.

My elephant hunting experience is certainly limited and insignificant to many of the rest of you reading but I would much prefer, when rifle hunting one to brain it rather than body shoot it. Only to reduce great suffering which is imposed on such a large animal. Any bullet is going to kill a deer or a kudu a lot faster than an elephant on a heart or lung shot due to the huge difference in body size of these animals. Hydrostatic shock and bleed out is going to take a hell of a lot longer.

Having to subdue body-shot elephant by breaking limbs is just not appealing to me. I know personally how much broken bones hurt. It's immediate and agonizing. I will avoid doing this to any animal unless it is a charge situation and my life is at risk. Hopefully not as the result of a poorly placed brain shot on a now wounded and fleeing animal. Again, this is my opinion and how I would personally hunt. Real life, yeah, sh!t happens but, I can reduce the likely hood by being in a proper position for a brain shot and not pulling the trigger if it is marginal.

I can guarentee you if I have the opportunity to hunt elephant in the future I will focus on brain shots when firearm hunting. I am not sure I can acheive the physical strength required to hunt one with archery equipment. I definitly have the skill and nerve, but at this point, not the strength.

I know in the video I have seen with arrowed ele that were shot in the vitals they exhibited very little reaction to the arrow and expired quietly after significant blood loss.

This isn't to exemplify or glorify one method of hunting over another. It's to point out each is very different but can produce the same results.

No matter how you hunt, shot placement will always be number one.

Ganyana. I was just trying to make a point, that we kill for fun and at no point in doing so, should we kid ourselves that the animals do not suffer. When a hunter kills, very often the animal suffers much less than when nature itself kills, but nevertheless an animal suffers when we pull the trigger or release the arrow. So there is no point in arguing about which is the better weapon, Gun or bow. Ann said it... a clean kill depends on the hunter behind the weapon. If we were to make clean instant kills on any animal, then explosives and grenades should be our preferred weapon on the larger species. right?

K&B Niels

When someone posts here and says they killed X number of animals on their safari and lost 1, no one has a problem with that. Why is it different when someone hears an archery animal was not found?

I have no way to prove this theory, but I believe more animals are dead and just not found when hit with an arrow then with bullets.

Poor hunters are just that, the weapon makes very little difference.

Let us hear the hard numbers from the people here that book and guide hunts. Please give us a count of the gun and bow hunter kills and losses.

GTR

Which Bogner title would that be?

quote:

Originally posted by fusino:
Which Bogner title would that be?

It is called "Passport to Africa"

Fred Bear's bow that he used to take an elephant with was a "super kodiak" with 75# pull. I saw the movie (16mm sound!). Saw it in the late '60s... and is one of the reasons I got interested in this forum (so -- you can blame him, in part, for my companionship on this forum )...

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I am not at all in favor of bow hunting. My two favorite hunting buddies are bow hunters. Both have been doing it for years. Both lose as many animals as they take. I cannot see the attraction nor the sport in this.

They are poor hunters, plain and simple. Practice more and don't take stupid shots.

You Got That Right.....You can't take your money with you, so you might as well spend it on ammo!!!

sierrabravo: if you had done your part correctly that buck wouldn't have gotten up the first time! I've yet to see a whitetail with a dbl lung or heart shot that could travel 2 miles....DON"T blame the weapon for your ineptness! Shoot a 80# antelope in the guts with a 30-06 165 gr bullet and watch how far he goes...poor shooting is poor shooting an if you can't be certain of an ethical kill stay home and watch football!!

Tembo, I agree with you.

We have dominion over the earth, therefore we must be good stewards thereof. Still, we sometimes forget that we are naturally omnivores and predators.

Using rifles for hunting game (and I use the word "game" advisedly) is a relatively new phenomenon. Only upon the development of gunpowder (and rifling and steel and Nosler Partitions, ad nausem) did mankinds prowess begin to exceed the shrew or the great cats.... and they "wound" all the time.

So, if you do your best, why feel bad? Does a hawk or a leopard... I kind of doubt it. It is all in the natural order of things. Nothing in nature goes to waste. Just ask a hyena.

So, IMHO, you get to chose your killing device, be it primitive or modern.. and as a God's steward of animals, do your best to prepare and remember that your eyes are in the front of your head like a lion's.. not on the side like a damn cow... or Rosie O'Donnell's.