That's the best I've ever heard it said. Bravo!

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan W:
My wife's great uncle Bob Swinehart (deceased) killed the big five with a long bow. It's been a few years since I read his book, but I believe he was backed up on one animal. He then successfully bow killed the species to complete his big five. His big five included a Black Rhino.

Personally I prefer a big bore.

Bryan

Cats/Wynwood posted those pictures as his awhile ago.

quote:

Originally posted by DanEP:
Fred Bear's bow that he used to take an elephant with was a "super kodiak" with 75# pull. I saw the movie (16mm sound!). Saw it in the late '60s... and is one of the reasons I got interested in this forum (so -- you can blame him, in part, for my companionship on this forum )...

Dan

Fred Bear's Elephant was shot in the off hind knee with a 470 before he shot it. This was done to anchor the Ele for him and the cameraman. The shooter was Bob Langeveld, who some of you may remember as the person whose stories Peter Capstick wrote about in Death in the Long Grass.

I'm always amazed by some of the people here who believe that because it is on tape or in a movie that it is true. While some famous bowhunters have shot a lot of animals with a bow they haven't killed them all with a bow, despite the 'video evidence'.

Very interesting Mickey about how the "hunting" movie was setup. Amazing what acts some guys will go to, to sell a 'stunt' hunting movie.

Movies are made on the "edit" floor after all.

Side question...When an elephant is shot in the hind knee he just stands there and does not move?

GTR

quote:

Originally posted by GTR:
Side question...When an elephant is shot in the hind knee he just stands there and does not move?

GTR

Yes. Exactly correct. A three legged elephant is an immobile elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
Fred Bear's Elephant was shot in the off hind knee with a 470 before he shot it. This was done to anchor the Ele for him and the cameraman. The shooter was Bob Langeveld, who some of you may remember as the person whose stories Peter Capstick wrote about in Death in the Long Grass.

I'm always amazed by some of the people here who believe that because it is on tape or in a movie that it is true. While some famous bowhunters have shot a lot of animals with a bow they haven't killed them all with a bow, despite the 'video evidence'.

I don't beleive this and think you're a lying POS an will continue to think so until I see some proof other than another of your wild accusations. Cats

I se a lot of confusion on the use of a Bow & Arrow here. Bowhunting is about stealth, ambush, close & personal. Arrows kill by hemmorage not by tramatic shock. Bowhunters do not have the luxury of multipule shot placements oppertunitys.

It's never been nor ever will be about stopping a charging ANYTHING. It always was and always will be about getting close and being precise in shot placement.

A (--)% are shot by the pH at the end of the day. Of course they are outfitter hunting is a business no matter how much we enjoy it, it's still someone's job. When we're all back home telling our "storys" someone's figuring out how to get more animals on the ground in less time next season.

There is no animal on this planet that will survive a broadhead cutting a major heart artery or vain...PERIOD!

Why would anyone Bowhunt DG? For the same reason you would hunt with a rifle.

Mickey
I believe the filmed bowhunt you are talking about was the one made by Howard Hill not Fred Bear. In the film of Freds kill the elephant runs away at a full run.It is in a very large herd of others. It was said to have been hit too far back hitting the liver and making for a long follow up. At times it is rumored that Mr Bear used a "pod" poision arrow on his elephant and buffalo kills. But being american I will find him innocent of that charge until summeone proves other wise. I have the Swineheart video and the Bear videos they are from a different time with a different set of "standards" The Swineheart video most of all. His lion is hit too far back and ends up in the truck with them.I believe he takes his shot from the truck. A must see for anyone who doubts the speed of a cat.
Dean

Freds elephant was not shot in the knee, he wouldn't claim it as a bowkill if it was. It is well known that the Howard Hill elephant was shot so that they could make a good movie of it and if you've seen it, its very obvious. Its NOT something that would be done in this day. Fred shot three polar bears in his life the first two charged immediatly and had to be stopped with a rifle, he could easily have claimed them as bowkills, but didn't.

quote:

At times it is rumored that Mr Bear used a "pod" poision arrow on his elephant and buffalo kills.

Dean - I'm a very big fan of Fred Bear. I have the video of fred's Cape Buff kill. I've watched that video a 1000 X's when that arrow hits thier is a poof of power or dust. Initally, I thought it could have been a feather prep powder. Then again why would you bother with feather dry in Africa? If it was even available in the 50's???

At that point in Fred's life he was exteremely concerned about quick & humane kills.

That video is avalible through a few differant Trad Gear suppliers and occasionally on E-Bay.

He was right thier on tha Buff. Vedio is deceptive but it didn't look more that a 20 yrd shot.

Frank
Have have the entire Bear video set. The puff of powder is in the video. I have a friend up your way(Gary Ind) who was friends with Frank Scott he might have and inside answer on it.You most likely have seen him posting on stickbow "moose" I visited him a while back and had my photo taken with Freds bow. Its the one pictured on the back of "trailing the Bear". I think I became a better shot just by holding that bow. Fred must have had a good sense of humor he signed his own bow. "good hunting Fred , Fred Bear.
Dean

I think Tonto is correct. The swath of wounded animals HH and his gang left through Kenya and Tanz is still TODAY the reason for the anti bowhunting bias in Tanz that is only now starting to fade.

Cats- Micky made an honest mistake. If interested , check out Brian Herne's White Hunters. I'm almost sure that is where I learned of Howard Hill's techniques. In particular his lion "hunting" was inexcusable, even given the time it took place.

Rumors abound about Fred Bear's Kodiak brown bear being hit first by the guide's bullet too...it seems the macho Big Bore crowd just can't accept the fact that the big bores while fun to shoot and hunt with are really not the only weapon needed to kill DG.
My reference to Mickey1's wild accusations are well founded an I stand by them. "Cats"

Bear did use a pod on the buffalo and a lion as well. I do have a pic of a pod if anyone wants it. There is an old pic of bear with his tiger as well and the pod knuckle is clear behind the head. I talked with Glen St. Charles about this once when I lived in Seattle and he said Bear was just exploring options in bowhunting. Not necessarily caving to pressure to produce big trophies for his company, I asked him that question directly. I think it important to remember that we sit on the pious right hand of history in that we look back and judge but lo be the day when our progeny do the same to us. They will hold their heads in their hands and wonder 'Why, " and cast doubt and look with distain on everything we have done, yet we persist. _BAxter

At one time South Africa legislated that bow hunts for DG had to use a chemical back up on the arrow. Zim considered it, and said no, and then I belive SA Changed their law as well.

Edd Ashby, an American was heavily involved in the SA trials and published some excelent work on the subject.

NB, The south africans have long used chenicals to imobilise elephants during the culls. Why they didn't put a team together and just brain shoot the lot like we did, I don't know- especially as many of our parks men moved south and could have trained up south african teams...-but that is off the point. Chemical back up was one recomended or legislated.

I'm no expert on bowhunting and though I did a bunch back in the mid eighties I gave it up. As my young son is starting to talk about it I will probably take it up again.

Before I started bow hunting, when I was a youngster, I recall that the use of poison contained in a rubber "sleeve" just rearward of the broadhead was not considered unethical. I recall that the sleeve rolled back releasing the poison when the arrow penetrated the animal.

If I recall correctly the use of poison arrows began to be made illegal in different states when it was determined that a proper broadhead could quickly and humanely kill deer, which are and were the primary quarry, and when a number of hunters were killed in accidents by either falling on their arrows or cutting thenselves and finding the residue of the poison either did them in or nearly so.

JPK

I have it from an excellent source that all archery hunters are closet gays! Personally I don't know but thats what I have been told!!

now that was a piss stupid thing for you to post!
what's the matter you senial old lard ass time for a booster shot of vitamin E

(ust calling a spade a spade, lab lover how you like that one? )

Ray
I know a nice little river we could do an archery float hunt down. Ill get my boy to break out his banjo. Practice up on your hog calling."squeallll, squealllll".
ps email a photo of your teeth.
Dean

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mickey1:
Fred Bear's Elephant was shot in the off hind knee with a 470 before he shot it. This was done to anchor the Ele for him and the cameraman. The shooter was Bob Langeveld, who some of you may remember as the person whose stories Peter Capstick wrote about in Death in the Long Grass.

I'm always amazed by some of the people here who believe that because it is on tape or in a movie that it is true. While some famous bowhunters have shot a lot of animals with a bow they haven't killed them all with a bow, despite the 'video evidence'.

Could have been Hill. It was 27 years ago that Bob told me the story.

quote:

I don't beleive this and think you're a lying POS an will continue to think so until I see some proof other than another of your wild accusations. Cats

Wynwood

I thought you were the resident Lying POS on this Forum?

look just admit you made an error or that you were talking out of your ass...no big deal

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:

quote:

Originally posted by DanEP:
Fred Bear's bow that he used to take an elephant with was a "super kodiak" with 75# pull. I saw the movie (16mm sound!). Saw it in the late '60s... and is one of the reasons I got interested in this forum (so -- you can blame him, in part, for my companionship on this forum )...

Dan

Fred Bear's Elephant was shot in the off hind knee with a 470 before he shot it. This was done to anchor the Ele for him and the cameraman. The shooter was Bob Langeveld, who some of you may remember as the person whose stories Peter Capstick wrote about in Death in the Long Grass.

I'm always amazed by some of the people here who believe that because it is on tape or in a movie that it is true. While some famous bowhunters have shot a lot of animals with a bow they haven't killed them all with a bow, despite the 'video evidence'.

It is now many years since I saw that old movie. I'm older too, and my naive idealism was broken a long time ago. I'm not likely to be upset about hearing that Fred's elephant was anchored -- I've read about that before. But I still tend to believe in virtues -- even in a world that isn't ideal. I suspect that is true of most of those who post here who put favorite quotes in their signature entries.

However, who I heard it about was Hill. At the same time, that guy did a lot to bring archery to the public mind. Bear did more -- ranging from manufacturing technologies to advertisement methods and messages, to going on those hunts. One thing that is maybe most interesting is how the ethical values emerged as more people got involved AFTER some of those pioneers got it started. Oughtn't to blame with hindsight -- at least not too harshly.

Dan

I met Fred back in the late 60s even as an older gentleman he held the glint in his eyes that tells another hunter he's been there done that...it was around the time he had shot the polar bear that came thru the ice pack for him that was wounded buckshot shortly before. He told me straight out he didn't consider it a bow kill even though the bear would've gone on living with that buckshot wound but blood had been drawn with lead so it wasn't a bow kill..... you must admire a gutsy SOB like the skinny/frail grey haired guy Fred was...the man had balls an I admire him for it unlike I do some of the types whom buy their way into the record books now a days. cats

10 years ago I shot quite a few deer with pods and never once saw any powder fly from the impact.It doesn't work that way.However when watching video of Saeed's last hunt I saw some white powder arise from the impact site on a couple of the buff he shot .Do you suppose he was using pods on his 404?

Then again maybe it was just dust.I am with the others here who saw the Bear video and do not believe the ele was incapacitated.It just does not add up.

As to whether or not Fred ever shot pods,I have heard the rumor enough to believe that there is at least a possibility that it has merit.

I have toyed with the idea of ele with my bow.Already took a buffalo and an asiatic water buffalo.Got pass throughs on both and have no doubt that I can get adaquate penetration on an elephant.

Someone here alluded to the fact that many ele taken with a bow are probably sporting some bullet holes.There is a forum now going about ele hunting .If you read that one it seems that quite a few rifle shot ele get a dose of medicine from the PH also.Read for yourself and see what the facts are.

Is elephant hunting with a bow a stunt? I cannot conclusively answer that.It is certainly challenging and a heck of a rush that is for sure.

Ganyana,
I read your post and your mention of Ed Ashby. I have known him since the 70's and went to Zim with him for 6 weeks about 10 years ago. Last time I heard he was in New Zealand. Do you have any idea where he is now I would love to make contact with him.
To the other members here he is the only person I know of or have heard of to shot two white rhino with a long bow (118 pound pull). I remember him telling me that after shooting the second one that he considered them to be to large for archery hunters. But if any of you can find any of his writings on line they are absolutely the benchmark to follow. I would guess he has shot more african animals with a long bow than any living white man. And he is the best rifle shot on game I ever seen in action. Sorry to get off track but the man taught me a lot.

.

Alf:

First, let me say that I'm glad you're not dead.

Having taken 25 or so species of animals with a bow, and after reading your above post, which, by the way was as usual, knowlegable, boringly complete and accurate , I still wonder about other factors.

For instance, my experience is that some species of animals, regardless of size, just die (or become incapacitated... that is... fall on their ass) quicker than others. Bears, in my not so limited experience, seem to expire from lung hits much quicker than whitetails. Moose seem particularly quick to topple.

Could there be some animals, regardless of size, that are more susceptable to variations of blood pressure... ???? Not being medically trained, I may be really off track, but some animals seem to get "hypoxic" ??? if that's the word, much more quickly than others.... they just seem more fragile as to any significant loss of blood.

Did I make any sense?

Off topic: Why don’t the gun hunters shoot elephants in the legs then? Seems to me elephant is no long a risk to charge. Then you can just place the 2nd bullet wherever, recover is easy..

No booking agents or PH's answered my question. How many animals are wounded and not found by the gun and bow hunters? To the PH's, does it make a difference if the non-recovery is due to an arrow or bullet?

Heck, if you do not handle bow hunters please just tell me how many non-recovered game you had this season compared to recovered.

GTR

Alf,
Very interesting comments. When Ed was telling me about his second white rhino hunt he told me he clipped the aorota on a shot from 7 yards. If my memory serves me correctly he said they tracked the rhino for about 2 miles before they found it (dead).

.

The last time I read it, Dwight was the Editor of BOWHUNTER MAGAZINE. Would the other fellow be Larry D. Jones? I've done a bear hunting video with him. I made the very worst shot I've ever made (and on camera, at that), and we found the bear in five minutes, dead as a big lump of coal. Not much blood. No big veins cut. Must have been my reputation.

I hunted with Tink near Rocky Mountain Nat'l park in the late 70's, well before he went to RSA. If you believed 1/2 of what he said, he was a pretty amazing guy, hunting in Germany in the early 50's, etc. I always wondered how he kept his beard from getting caught in the wheels of his compound.

BTW, if you do die, would you leave me an "original" .404 Jeffery? I'll drink a single malt to your memory every night.

Back in 1994 or so, I took a bow to Burkina Faso. Before the hunt was over, I had folks waiting in line to follow along and watch. I related this earlier, but I killed a bird on the wing and became a minor god. Great fun.

Keeping on subject, I believe that a good recurve of 100#'s or so... I have one, btw which I can shoot about 10 times @ day if I skip a day between sessions... and a fish arrow with a stout single blade broad head, as Dr. Ashby recommended.. and you were willing to pass up lots of opportunities until the perfect one presented itself... you could do just fine on an elephant...

Was Ashby an eye-doc from Oklahoma... if so, I have about 200 broadheads he sent me once. Here's a link to his best works: ASHBY'S RESEARCH

He was from Texas, and yes he is an "eye doc". He helped designed a solid broadhead called the "grizzly". I wished I could find the paper he authored about broadhead and min pound pull requirements as I once had a copy. I remember he concluded the only broadhead worth its weight were solid designed heads and that any of the heads with replaceable blades were bascially garbage on a large critter. His work with the SA goverment was very very thorough as they performed post moterm inspections on everything they shot. The animals they didnt shoot with a bow were also propped up and then shot with archery gear to determine what effects different angles and different equipment had on the animal. Totally fascinating reading by a even more fascintaing man.
Does anyone have an email for him?

I posted the site above when I edited my post. Sorry!ASHBY'S RESEARCH

.

Judge and ALF, Thanks for sharing the stories about old Tink. I met him almost 20 years ago, and he was quite a character. The stories he told were fantastic! Thanks again.

While I have shot a few rabbits with a bow, I have not hunted anything bigger.
A long time back I remember reading about "poison pods" being tested on arrows. I believe it was in Louisana. It was not really a poison but a muscle relaxer called [if I remember correctly] succinol coline [sp?].
The idea was with ANY hit where the pod opened and the chemical [powder] got in the blood stream the animal would die from the stoppage of breathing and heart function. Thus resulting in more animal recoveries, less wounded game lost. The chemical was said not to effect the edibility of the meat in any way.

N.E. You are absolutely correct. SSC was used in 5 or 6 Southern states back in the 60's and 70's. I think Florida was the last state to permit it's use. I think it actually paralized the diaphram, causing quick asphyxiation.

Alf - Reference your interesting and well thought out bleed out theory.

It's not an issue of total blood volume it's a matter of % of blood loss to deprive the brain of oxigen.

I do agree heart rate is the factor to a point, as animals with a lower heart rate can handle lower blood oxgen levels.

Further a slower beating heart will pump the blood into the chest cavity at a slower rate.

However, Bio-plumbing is still bio-pumbing and ALL animals have to follow the rules that govern nature's blood pump. Severed artery's DO NOT supply blood.

.