Hi guys,

From a completely ignorant standpoint I'm curious as to what makes a lion full maned, maneless or otherwise? I seem to remember reading here that the density of the undregrowth having something to do with how much hair is lost. I'm assuming genetics are also a major factor?

Beyond that how important is the mane to those that have or want to hunt lion? I appreciate that a bald lion can nibble on you just the same that a big hairy lion can, but how important to you is the mane quality when hunting lion? Has anybody ever passed on a lion because of the lack of mane or is maturity and body size more important?

Rgds,
FB

the idea was that heavy undergrowth pulled the hairs out of the mane. I suppose this is a partial factor, but genetics are the main one. As far as what to hunt? everyone has different ideas here, thats what makes a trophy different to everyone. and yes i've passed on more than a couple lions, although there was this one old guy that was pretty hairless but so scared up from fighting that he would have been a hellova trophy

Genetics plays a major role in this characteristic. A recent study mentioned here indicated that females find heavily maned males more attractive. Kudude

ps: Sorry, BB, I did not read far enough in your response. k-d

FB; "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" as the saying goes. No doubt, to a Lioness, a large mane gives the appearance of a bigger male, and it seems in nature that is an attribute. Any mature Lion/Lioness is a dangerous animal, with the ability to kill feable Humans. What attracts a Hunter to a particular type of Lion would be as varied as "who makes the best DG rifle?" Good question, maybe a poll would be in order?
Good hunting,
David

I think most people find the darker maned lions to be more appealing. I agree but think a large lioness would be very nice as well.

Here's the perfect lion in my opinion...free-ranging, mature...and available!

Yep! That one would be a doer!!!!!!! If only............

I have never wanted to kill a Lion (male that is) but have tried several times to take what to me is the prettiest and most impressive of all cat's, a mature Lioness. Would still like to.

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Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I have never wanted to kill a Lion (male that is) but have tried several times to take what to me is the prettiest and most impressive of all cat's, a mature Lioness. Would still like to.

I checked around quite a bit and could not find one on quota or anyone who knew where to get one. Evidently there are a number of problems associated with hunting them like trying to determine if she has cubs, trying not to get charged by the wrong one, etc. Have you figured out how it's done?

yukon is there any place a lion like this still avilable,i doubted,cause in lion hunting offers, there r a lot gimicks and lots of saying but when u go there the situation changes,only thing matters to outfitters r 21 days or 16 days these days game is rubbish,what u say? regards

There is no doubt that the lion pictured is available (last I heard). Karl S. has it on one of his leased properties in Namibia and has seen it several times and posted different photos of it. I don't know a lot of the particulars but I would contact him. I know it's not cheap and neither should it be. That lion just has the right wild look.

Best evidence indicates that, besides proper genes, which are of course essential, a lion's age is the key factor in determining whether he will have a large mane.

Some evidence indicates that most, but not all, lion populations may carry the genes for a large mane. Not every male in a population will develop one. Some lion can live to a ripe old age and never develop much of a mane.

I believe that thick brush may thin a mane to some extent. But I don't believe that brush alone will significantly reduce the size of a lion's mane. Many very large maned lion have been killed in thick country over the years.

A mane is a wonderful attribute for a trophy lion. But in my estimation, as contrasted with age, it is not essential.

The most important thing about mane size is that it's the best indicator of age. And unlike nose color, mane size can be relied upon with little or no doubt.

I do not know the details but didn't the Tsavo lion study find that most of the males were maneless?

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Originally posted by yukon delta:
I do not know the details but didn't the Tsavo lion study find that most of the males were maneless?

Walter has a theory.

Lions that feed on "hairy" animals would have more hairy manes.

The Tsavo lions were feeding on Indian railway workers, who shave, hence they had no manes!

Well, that must be the answer. Give Walter a raise...he is up to 2 chickens per month now right?

one bad thing about the hairy ones - the tanning process - on mine they must have ruined 1/2 of the mane. Much of the mane going down the back was 6" long or so and after tanning it's now 1/2"-1"

Research being done by Biologist Dr. Bruce Patterson (no relation to J.H. Patterson) has yeilded some interesting facts:

"While the Tsavo lions gained popularity as being notorious man-eaters, these animals are now famous the world over because the males are mostly maneless. Lions are the only cat species to develop this crown of hair around their neck and shoulders. Most scientists believe that manes help in communicating messages to other lions, intimidating other males and perhaps attracting females. So why, then, don’t the Tsavo lions develop these majestic manes?
Male lions develop their manes when they reach maturity, usually at about 2-3 years of age. Male hormones, androgens, produce manes by stimulating the growth of certain hair cells, just as they produce beards in men, and paradoxically, cause balding in some men as they grow older. Dr. Patterson is trying to discover if manelessness is caused by some change in the genes of these lions, or by some environmental condition in their habitat, or some combination of each. Although they offer social benefits, manes have disadvantages: they’re really hot and they make the lion more visible to prey. A lion with a large, heavy mane has to drink more water and spend more time in the shade in order to replenish moisture lost in panting to stay cool. For this reason, maybe the lions that live in Tsavo are lucky: the climate in southwest Kenya is hot and dry. A lion with a mane would pant more- an animal’s way of regulating its body temperature- and would therefore lose more water. This type of an advantage is called an environmental adaptation.

Lion-Human Conflicts
The Kenyan Wildlife Service reports that only elephants top lions in the number of conflicts with humans in the Tsavo National Park area. Every year, lions kill hundreds of cattle, sheep and goats on ranches in the area. These wildlife attacks cause the nomadic herdsmen to poison or spear lions in order to save their livestock. Conflicts between people and lions are responsible for steady declines in lion numbers across Africa. Recent estimates indicated that over the last 25 years, the African lion population has decreased by 50%, and perhaps as few as 22,600 African lions persist in protected areas. Dr. Patterson and the team collect data on the lions of Taita and Rukinga Ranches, adjoining the Tsavo National Parks. By working on ranches, they can study lion-human interactions in the setting where conflicts arise. They gather information on the way the lions use their space, what types of prey they attack and other activities that the engage in when they roam from their typical area. Data of this sort is called ecological information. This type of information is then shared with ranchers to help them better manage their livestock.
Woodland Biodiversity
Tsavo National Park are the home to one of the laregest and most secure populations of lions in Africa. The area of the park is about the size of Massachusetts, and an equal area of natural ranchlands surrounds it. Tsavo is home to one of the largest Acacia-Commiphora woodlands in Kenya, but this habitat is rapidly disappearing. These woodlands support many of the rarely seen species on the African landscape, but these habitats are being deforested for charcoal and construction materials. Elephants also depend on the Acacia woodland as a dry-season food resource. With the destruction of these woodlands go the species that depend on them for survival. Part of the job that Dr. Patterson and the Earthwatch volunteers will take on is documenting as many species as possible while working on Taita and Rukinga Ranches. Team members will photograph species that they see, record the number of animals and their location, and plot this data into graphs that show the range of the species.

The Research Site and Goals
One way to ease the tension between the lions and their human neighbors is to understand the Tsavo lion’s annual cycle- that is, how they are organized and behave throughout the year, where they go and what types of food they typically consume. Dr. Patterson, his colleagues and Earthwatch volunteers spend the majority of their time studying the lions on Taita and Rukinga Ranches, a private conservancy within the Greater Tsavo Ecosystem. Here, the team spends hours in Land Rovers looking for the elusive lions using radio and GPS telemetry collars, eyeshine, pugmarks (paw prints) and luck. Lions have enormous home ranges and it takes a bit of luck and time to find them in dense woodlands. Over the past three years, the crew has patrolled over 28,391 km of ranch roads and tracks, making these woodlands one of the best-monitored and surveyed conservancies in the world! Lions are most often spotted at rest, but even so, vital data on pride size and composition can be gathered. Once a lion is spotted, a wealth of information is collected including location relative to the nearest water source or other lions, behavior, and physical characteristics. Sex, size, wound scars and length of mane amongst other things help team members to recognize each lion. All this information is then loaded into a PDA (see Tools section) and then synchronized with a laptop when the team returns to camp. We’ll see later how these tools and techniques help Dr. Patterson and the rest of the crew to track the lions, and other animals."

Those interested in more should take a look at:
expeditions@fieldmuseum.org

LDK

Thanks for the Tsavo research citation. Pretty interesting.

Butchloc, where do you think the hair loss occurred? Is that due to the prep and dipping process or something in the tanning process? It doesn't sound like you are describing hair slippage unless I misunderstood your post. That's terrible to lose that much hair on such a beautiful animal.

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Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
I do not know the details but didn't the Tsavo lion study find that most of the males were maneless?

Walter has a theory.

Lions that feed on "hairy" animals would have more hairy manes.

The Tsavo lions were feeding on Indian railway workers, who shave, hence they had no manes!

unless of course they are feeding on Indians of the Sikh religion, who have long, thick beards as well as long hair. "food for thought"

According to Karyl Whitman and Professor Craig Packer, all male lions have the equal potential of developing a full mane. This implies that they all carry the "right" gene for mane development and growth. In essence, any lion under optimum conditions will develop a full mane. Pigmentation of manes vary.

They further state that thorny bush/scrub has no effect on the lack of mane or overall mane development.

A male lion that is allowed to grow to 6 or more years old will develop a full mane under general conditions.

Causes of poor mane in mature male lions can be attributed, amongst others, to;
- Poor diet causing loss of condition
- Ilness or injury causing loss of condition
- Advanced age often results in mane becoming poorer (Similar to balding in humans).
- Geographical adaptations (such as Tsavo/Taita ecosystems)exist

They go on to say that male lions in "hotter" climates (Such as Tsavo/Selous) "...grow shorter manes and their manes take a year or two longer to grow".

Full mane development is generally reached by male lions from 6 years onwards and may start "thinning out" after 8 years of age.

So if hunters target male lions 6 years and older for their trophies, then not only are they doing the correct thing with regards the sustainability of hunting lions but they will most likely end up with the better looking mane.

Excellent post Bwanamich. Information is key to understanding a species.
Good hunting,
David

The Tsavo study by Kays and Patterson (no relation to the famous Colonel Patterson) found that the Tsavo lions are generally maneless throughout their lives. They have head and neck tufts, but these are very sparse and hardly qualify as manes. This is as true now as it was over 100 years ago when Colonel Patterson shot the infamous maneless man-eaters of Tsavo.

The same is likewise true of many if not most populations of West African lions. They are often maneless, or very sparsely maned, at full maturity.

The data are not conclusive, but evidence adduced by Kays and Patterson indicates that the Tsavo lions may have evolved manelessness as an adaptation to their environment - i.e., that their manelessness has a genetic cause - or that it may be hormonal, resulting from increased levels of testosterone.

Genes for hair growth and "baldness" may, in point of fact, be variable among lions. We just don't know. It does seem logical to me, however, that they would be.

The genome of Panthera leo will make for interesting study (at least for hunters ) if it is ever sequenced.

Here is a link to Kays and Patterson's study for those interested.

Kays, Patterson, Lion Study, 2002

First, let me say I'm not a lion hunter! I'd like to be, but I simply can't afford to hunt them in today's market. Lion hunting has gone through the roof of late, so I'm out, and I envy those who can hunt them.

However, because I'd love to be able to hunt lion, I've done a lot of studying on the lion populations of Africa. From what I can gather, there are definently populations of lion that do not develope large manes. On example is, in the last twenty yrs,or so, the lions of the Kalahari areas of Botswana are not growing large manes. This seems to be a change in the gene pool there, but may be simly because of the heat, that seems to be getting hotter. Ronny Blackbeard of the well known early settler Blackbeard family in Botswana, says these very large lion, simply no longer grow the large manes, no matter how old they get. This may be that the large maned lion were shot out, but I think the environmental cause is far more likely! The large manes of the Angorongoro, and the Lobo hunting area is due to the wide open windy grassland, and because most of the pictures you see of the MGM fellows are in the parks there, where the populations have been largely left to nature, and nature being far cooler than the Southern Kalahari. I have zero scientific data to back any of this, it is simply my personal opinion, nothing more.

As far as hunting lion based on how big his mane is, to me, is secondary. I'd rather take a maneless old lion at close range, on foot, than an MGM from a bakki, or from 300 yds with a snipeing rifle. For me, the thrill of takeing any of the "DANGEROUS" game is because it is dangerous. A lion is simply not dangerous at 300 yds, and though I'd likely take a real MGM at 300 yds if that was all I had, but the real deal, to me, is up close, on the ground. 50 yds is CLOSE for a lion, because if you screw up, he can cover that 50 yds in three seconds flat. To add to that with a alpha lioness in a pride, you stand a chance of getting a multiple charge, even if you down her with the first shot. That makes the lioness a far more dangerous animal than her boyfriend!

All this is simply day dreaming on my part, because, though I've had my sights alligned on a big lion,at close range, waiting to see what he was going to do, that is as close to shooting a lion as I have ever come! I couldn't talk for ten minutes after he decided he didn't want to take the risk, and turned and melted into the bush.

quote:

I'd rather take a maneless old lion at close range, on foot, than an MGM from a bakki, or from 300 yds with a snipeing rifle.

How about an MGM lion, that is OLD at close range?

should that not be the ulitmate aim of every male lion hunt?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:


How about an MGM lion, that is OLD at close range?

That would be even better!

Thanks guys,

I wasn't sure if my desire to shoot a fully maned lion was off the mark as far as reality was concerned. He doesn't need to be an MGM but My dream of a lion is one with a mane.

Of course this is entirely speculation as I don't have a lion hunt planned as yet so if I ever do manage to put one together then my opinions may change once I'm up close and personal.

Rgds,
FB

As an East African PH, I have pondered this question for years, and I am now leaning towards the theory that thicker heavy manes are to a large degree; the result of colder temperatures (either resulting from higher elevations, or from farther distance from equator). This was also the theory believed by such hunters as John Kinsley Heath and none other than F.C. Selous. JKH had this to say: "Generally speaking, climate makes a considerable difference. A cold climate produces bigger manes and bodies on the males, and heavier bodies on the females. In the southern hemisphere, and in Botswana in particular, I found the lions to be the heaviest and best maned that I have ever encountered. In Southern Africa where summer & winter are more pronounced (temperatures dropping to below freezing in April & May)".

A few excerpts from F.C. Selous: "now, personally I believe that cold has more to do with the developement of a lion's mane than anything else". and "Today, lions with really fine manes are never found except in countries where the nights are cold during the winter months, such as the Athi plains, the Uas N'gishu plateau, the high downs of of Matabeleland & Mashunaland..etc" also: "In hotter parts of africa, lying below the level of the more elevated plateaus, I think I am correct in saying that the lions never get fine manes, and the hotter the climate, the poorer on the average the manes will be." Selous did not subscribe to the old belief that lions lost their manes on thorns.

In Tanzania for example; almost all adult male lions taken in Masailand (Masai steppe-higher elevation) will produce good to excellent manes.
The lower elevation Selous GR is well known for large lion populations....and its "poorer" mane quality. I hunt in Selous and I also hunted much in a block adjoining the Selous in the south called Mbarangandu. I have seen very good lions in this block...not quite MGM, but much heavier than typical Selous lions. It is quite hilly country, and when hunting there, I always sleep in heavy pajamas...and wear gloves, wool jersey, heavy jacket in mornings & evening. (Seems like I'm always freezing my bum in that block!!)

While the jury may still be out on this topic, this seems to be a plausible theory worthy of further study....

Yukon Delta,
Karl contacted me to sell the Lion you have pictured sometime back, I think I posted the hunt on AR at the time..

Have not had much luck as the economy has really hit the booking business and the Safari business a lick, the worst I have seen in 40 plus years, but its effecting everyone, thus the problem, and that Lion ain't exactly cheap.

That is one heck of a Lion, and he owns the desert..It is a tracking hunt.

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That is one heck of a Lion, and he owns the desert..It is a tracking hunt.

...and he is canned !


Seloushunter