Dande North

12 October 2014, 17:25

Indy

Dande North

There's a big difference between a joke and a lie. Perhaps Kim should learn that difference. I almost sent the photo to some friends of mine.

I hunted out of Mukanga Camp also, in 2011. There are many big bulls in that area. Shame on Kim for shooting a baby cow.

As for Barak Obola's ridiculous ban on importing ivory, someone could make a fortune by offering a painless path to store it in Canada or Europe and/or donate it to some museum for a tax deduction.

12 October 2014, 18:15

shakari

quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
As for Barak Obola's ridiculous ban on importing ivory, someone could make a fortune by offering a painless path to store it in Canada or Europe

At the risk of going off topic for a moment..... that actually raises a good point.

(For example) I have the ideal set up here for a very secure storage area but the problem is that one would be daft to advertise such a facility because any such ad would be an open invitation to the world of dodgy bastards and his dog to try and breach such a facility.

Catch 22.

12 October 2014, 18:46

DTala

some of you need to get a life....

12 October 2014, 19:07

rnovi

Ok, I'll admit it - I thought that was a beast! Well played gents!

12 October 2014, 19:28

Matt Graham

quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
There's a big difference between a joke and a lie. Perhaps Kim should learn that difference. I almost sent the photo to some friends of mine.

I hunted out of Mukanga Camp also, in 2011. There are many big bulls in that area. Shame on Kim for shooting a baby cow.

As for Barak Obola's ridiculous ban on importing ivory, someone could make a fortune by offering a painless path to store it in Canada or Europe and/or donate it to some museum for a tax deduction.

Wouldn't importing someone else's ivory into Canada be ... a lie?

12 October 2014, 19:32

Buzz Charlton

Indy- "Shame on Kim shooting a baby cow???" It was a ration ele cow hunt and quite what you are getting at with regards to calling it a baby cow-I am lost- do you mean tusk size- if you do we make it a policy , unlike many operators, that we do not shoot bulls but only inferior cows as rations which is what she was (8 and 10 lbs). Or if you mean baby- are you talking body size- if that is the case just to let you know she was a very old cow and was on her last set of molars- something that is not common these days and we age ALL our elephants!

She happened to be the 120th elephant that we tracked up and looked at before deciding to shoot as she fit the criteria that we at CMS have put down for our ration quota! As to call Kim lying- you really lack a sense of humour! Cheers Buzz

!

12 October 2014, 19:36

Matt Graham

I am sorry that you are made to feel that you should justify your actions here Buzz.

12 October 2014, 19:54

shakari

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Wouldn't importing someone else's ivory into Canada be ... a lie?

A hunter is perfectly entitled to send his elephant products to a third party elsewhere in the world for either permanent or temporary storage.

12 October 2014, 20:17

tanks

Regarding the critics of the "joke" as you say.

It wasn't a joke per se. We were "Punk'd". And, well done at that.

12 October 2014, 20:43

Indy

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Indy- "Shame on Kim shooting a baby cow???" It was a ration ele cow hunt and quite what you are getting at with regards to calling it a baby cow-I am lost- do you mean tusk size- if you do we make it a policy , unlike many operators, that we do not shoot bulls but only inferior cows as rations which is what she was (8 and 10 lbs). Or if you mean baby- are you talking body size- if that is the case just to let you know she was a very old cow and was on her last set of molars- something that is not common these days and we age ALL our elephants!

She happened to be the 120th elephant that we tracked up and looked at before deciding to shoot as she fit the criteria that we at CMS have put down for our ration quota! As to call Kim lying- you really lack a sense of humour! Cheers Buzz

!

Seriously, Buzz, I am confused. By "ration cow" do you mean human rations? I thought elephant meat was tough, especially old elephants. Why not shoot a buffalo for rations? Also, I'm not sure I would want to pay for a safari where I had to track 120 elephants before shooting a non-trophy one. How long did that take?

The last time I hunted out of Camp Mukanga in Dande North, in 2011, we came across maybe one bunch of them per day. I shot the second bull we actually stalked as it was better than my first elephant from another area.

13 October 2014, 00:35

tanks

quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
... By "ration cow" do you mean human rations? I thought elephant meat was tough, especially old elephants. Why not shoot a buffalo for rations?

Toughness doesn't matter when meat is preserved as follows:

Also, one elephant will feed about 2,000 people for a month when they add just a little meat to each meal of maize. One would have to shoot multiple buffalos to end up with the same amount of meat.

Finally, elephant meat is not tough. On a recent hunt I had both elephant stew and elephant "chicken fried" steak. Both were delicious. I did like the stew more though, I think I had 3 helpings, and requested they fix me the stew again after I shot my second elephant. Now, they used the back straps for camp meat and other parts might have been tougher.

13 October 2014, 01:21

tendrams

quote:
Originally posted by shakari:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Wouldn't importing someone else's ivory into Canada be ... a lie?

A hunter is perfectly entitled to send his elephant products to a third party elsewhere in the world for either permanent or temporary storage.

Correct. Nothing wrong with that. Ship it to yourself c/o individual X to be stored wherever and for whatever period of time. It still amazes me that more people do not do this more often as the ivory import ban wears on. It would be very easy to find climate controlled storage in Canada at relatively little cost, to insure the item(s) at full value, and then wait out the ban. Better yet, simply build a trophy room or small home in whatever "import friendly" country and be done with it. It is beyond me why people prefer to whine about the ban rather than circumvent it.

JMHO

13 October 2014, 03:25

KPete

I hadn't intended to post again on this now tedious thread, but yours is a fascinating post, Indy. Let me attempt to respond as best I can.

quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
There's a big difference between a joke and a lie. Perhaps Kim should learn that difference. I almost sent the photo to some friends of mine.

Whew! I'm relieved that a tragedy was averted; I can only imagine the anguish and humiliation you would have suffered at the hands of your friends had you sent that photo. Since it is clear that I'm ignorant on the matter, perhaps you would enlighten me as to what in any of my posts constituted a "lie".

quote:
I hunted out of Mukanga Camp also, in 2011. There are many big bulls in that area. Shame on Kim for shooting a baby cow.

I have to assume that you are a very experienced elephant hunter as, I'm sure you will agree, only a fool would make such a harsh judgment otherwise. That being the case, can you provide us with your experience with having a "big bull" taken under a ration elephant license? Also, since I never posted a photo of my elephant, how did you determine that it was a baby cow? Is clairvoyance another of your areas of expertise?

----------------

quote:
Seriously, Buzz, I am confused. By "ration cow" do you mean human rations? I thought elephant meat was tough, especially old elephants. Why not shoot a buffalo for rations?

Okay, now I'm confused. What with your elephant hunting expertise, how is that you don't know that, 1) non-trophy elephants are occasionally offered on license as community rations; 2) a substantial protein component in some African communities' diets comes from legally hunted elephant meat; and, 3) there are several differences between a cow elephant on license for community rations and a buffalo. Even from my limited experience, I can tell them apart as one of them has a trunk.

quote:
Also, I'm not sure I would want to pay for a safari where I had to track 120 elephants before shooting a non-trophy one. How long did that take?

My ration cow was taken on the afternoon of the seventh day of hunting. Hard hunting. As an elephant hunt should be. This is also precisely what I had asked Buzz to provide, and he delivered in spades. Close to fifty miles of tracking in temperatures that often exceeded 100-degrees F. Yes, we could have taken a young tuskless on our first day, but why? I went to Zim to hunt dangerous game and in the process marvel at the skill of our trackers, learn from the tutelage provided by my PH, get in and among lots of elephants, and enjoy the extraordinary wilderness that is Dande North. Put simply, I hunt because I revel in the process, not because I'm hell bent on shooting something at the earliest opportunity.

quote:
The last time I hunted out of Camp Mukanga in Dande North, in 2011, we came across maybe one bunch of them per day. I shot the second bull we actually stalked as it was better than my first elephant from another area.

You had two tracking sessions before you shot your elephant, I had somewhere north of 15. The way I see it, I experienced seven times more elephant hunting than you managed, and all in one week. That's my idea of a great safari (as well as value for money)!

That said, I'm glad you didn't over exert yourself. It's important for a man to know his limitations. As for me, I would have been happy to have taken my elephant the last hour of the last day and enjoy every moment available to hunt hard alongside a world-class PH like Buzz. You know, like your signature line says, "Life is short. Hunt hard." Or did you forget that last part?

13 October 2014, 03:32

cal pappas

Damn fine post, KPete. I hope the matter is at rest.
Cal

13 October 2014, 03:48

bwana cecil

I fail to understand how anyone could be offended by Kim's post.
I found it to be durn funny myself.
But I do know a few people who have ZERO sense of humor!
For those of you that are witty enough to think up such pranks to play on us, please don't let the humorless few deny the rest of us a good laugh.

13 October 2014, 04:09

Chris Lozano

quote:
Also, I'm not sure I would want to pay for a safari where I had to track 120 elephants before shooting a non-trophy one.

Sounds perfect to me.

Regarding your hunt, I'm glad you didn't over exert yourself. It's important for a man to know his limitations. As for me, I would have been happy to have taken my elephant the last hour of the last day and enjoy every moment available to hunt hard alongside a world-class PH like Buzz. You know, like your signature line says, "Life is short. Hunt hard." Or did you forget that last part?[/QUOTE]

I wish all my trips ended that way. Last hour of the last day. That getting your moneys worth. Rest on the plane ride home.

Kim I still think it was funny.

13 October 2014, 05:13

Nakihunter

One great outcome of this post is that Lion Aid made a fool of itself!

I posted there about this joke & how Lion Aid is undermining grass root level conservation among African villages by attacking ration hunts!

I have got some positive comments and no negatives so far!

13 October 2014, 05:26

Indy

quote:
Originally posted by KPete:
I hadn't intended to post again on this now tedious thread, but yours is a fascinating post, Indy. Let me attempt to respond as best I can.

quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
There's a big difference between a joke and a lie. Perhaps Kim should learn that difference. I almost sent the photo to some friends of mine.

Whew! I'm relieved that a tragedy was averted; I can only imagine the anguish and humiliation you would have suffered at the hands of your friends had you sent that photo. Since it is clear that I'm ignorant on the matter, perhaps you would enlighten me as to what in any of my posts constituted a "lie".

quote:
I hunted out of Mukanga Camp also, in 2011. There are many big bulls in that area. Shame on Kim for shooting a baby cow.

I have to assume that you are a very experienced elephant hunter as, I'm sure you will agree, only a fool would make such a harsh judgment otherwise. That being the case, can you provide us with your experience with having a "big bull" taken under a ration elephant license? Also, since I never posted a photo of my elephant, how did you determine that it was a baby cow? Is clairvoyance another of your areas of expertise?

----------------

quote:
Seriously, Buzz, I am confused. By "ration cow" do you mean human rations? I thought elephant meat was tough, especially old elephants. Why not shoot a buffalo for rations?

Okay, now I'm confused. What with your elephant hunting expertise, how is that you don't know that, 1) non-trophy elephants are occasionally offered on license as community rations; 2) a substantial protein component in some African communities' diets comes from legally hunted elephant meat; and, 3) there are several differences between a cow elephant on license for community rations and a buffalo. Even from my limited experience, I can tell them apart as one of them has a trunk.

quote:
Also, I'm not sure I would want to pay for a safari where I had to track 120 elephants before shooting a non-trophy one. How long did that take?

My ration cow was taken on the afternoon of the seventh day of hunting. Hard hunting. As an elephant hunt should be. This is also precisely what I had asked Buzz to provide, and he delivered in spades. Close to fifty miles of tracking in temperatures that often exceeded 100-degrees F. Yes, we could have taken a young tuskless on our first day, but why? I went to Zim to hunt dangerous game and in the process marvel at the skill of our trackers, learn from the tutelage provided by my PH, get in and among lots of elephants, and enjoy the extraordinary wilderness that is Dande North. Put simply, I hunt because I revel in the process, not because I'm hell bent on shooting something at the earliest opportunity.

quote:
The last time I hunted out of Camp Mukanga in Dande North, in 2011, we came across maybe one bunch of them per day. I shot the second bull we actually stalked as it was better than my first elephant from another area.

You had two tracking sessions before you shot your elephant, I had somewhere north of 15. The way I see it, I experienced seven times more elephant hunting than you managed, and all in one week. That's my idea of a great safari (as well as value for money)!

That said, I'm glad you didn't over exert yourself. It's important for a man to know his limitations. As for me, I would have been happy to have taken my elephant the last hour of the last day and enjoy every moment available to hunt hard alongside a world-class PH like Buzz. You know, like your signature line says, "Life is short. Hunt hard." Or did you forget that last part?

Pete:

I apologize if I set you off or said anything wrong. But in answer to your questions:

Q: "...perhaps you would enlighten me as to what in any of my posts constituted a "lie"."

A: You posted that one tusk weighed 160 pounds and the smaller 140 pounds. That wasn't true.

Q: " can you provide us with your experience with having a "big bull" taken under a ration elephant license? Also, since I never posted a photo of my elephant, how did you determine that it was a baby cow?"

A: I have taken two bulls but never under a ration license. In fact (believe it or not) I did not realize there even was such a thing. As for "baby cow," you posted that the biggest tusk weighed 10 pounds. "Small tusked" would have been a better term for me to use than "baby."

Q: "Okay, now I'm confused. What with your elephant hunting expertise, how is that you don't know that, 1) non-trophy elephants are occasionally offered on license as community rations; 2) a substantial protein component in some African communities' diets comes from legally hunted elephant meat; and, 3) there are several differences between a cow elephant on license for community rations and a buffalo. Even from my limited experience, I can tell them apart as one of them has a trunk."

A: Again, while I've heard of tuskless hunts and PAC hunts, I did not know they had ration hunts. Of course I knew that both the bulls I shot had been made into biltong. Sorry for the confusion I may have caused. And yes, I have also hunted buffalo and know the difference.

Q: "You had two tracking sessions before you shot your elephant, I had somewhere north of 15. The way I see it, I experienced seven times more elephant hunting than you managed, and all in one week. That's my idea of a great safari (as well as value for money)!"

A: If it makes you feel any better, I hunted for six days in Dande North before I took a buffalo and 18 days before taking a lion. I never did get a shot at a leopard.

I told my PH I would not shoot an elephant unless we could get one larger than the one I'd killed in 2008. It's not my fault that we found one on the second stalk. What would you have me do? Throw away the chance and hope for a better one? For the record, it was a 46 pounder. A respectable size for the area, according to the PH, and looks good on the wall.

To each is own. I'm glad you got what you paid for. I feel that I did too. I again apologize if I gave any other impression.

13 October 2014, 05:55

KPete

Indy, I won't bother to engage you any further on this silly matter.

Quite frankly I'm now convinced that our colleagues on AR who refuse to post write-ups on their hunts are right: It's no longer worth it. Too many internet commandoes anxious to score points in ridiculously contrived conflicts. There will be no more hunt reports from me, including the one I had planned for this safari.

I do wish to address your calling me a liar, which accusation you supported with the following:

quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
I apologize if I set you off or said anything wrong. But in answer to your questions:

Q: "...perhaps you would enlighten me as to what in any of my posts constituted a "lie"."
A: You posted that one tusk weighed 160 pounds and the smaller 140 pounds. That wasn't true.

If you plan on calling a man out on in public regarding his integrity, Indy, you had best have your facts strait. Had you bothered to accurately read my original post you would have seen this:

quote:
Originally posted by KPete:
Official weights have yet to be established, but estimates are approximately 160 and 144.

Nowhere did I allege that these numbers reflected pounds, kilos, stones, or any other measure of weight - until the next day when I posted this:

quote:
Originally posted by KPete:
As for their weights, they are still approximate but are believed to be in the region of 160 and 144 ounces respectively (that's 10 pounds and 9 pounds each). Certainly better than the other tusks I managed on this hunt, but by no means less exceptional to a relative novice like myself.

You may fairly challenge me on the economy of my humor - better men than you already have - but a gentleman will always be circumspect before leveling a charge of lying. And you, sir, are no gentleman.

13 October 2014, 06:11

npd345

great post KPete. I have enjoyed it!!

some of the posters on here need to get a real life and lighten up!

Shane

13 October 2014, 06:31

RCG

This is getting serious. I have the feeling that Doug Chester, Esq will be making an appearance.

On whose side remains to be seen.

Seriously, good one KPete!

13 October 2014, 08:32

bwana cecil

It's a shame when supposedly grown men get into such a pissy fit over someone playing a prank or using a word they find offensive.
GROW UP PEOPLE!

13 October 2014, 10:07

John Chalmers

KPete, I enjoy your posts on AR as many do.
Sorry we are to be deprived of your hunting report because, a minority, failed to see the humour in your excellent post.
Good craic!jc

13 October 2014, 19:20

larryshores

This is shocking . Not everyone has the same sense of humor. Who cares? Why get stirred up about it? Even worse , why do some who clearly lack knowledge on the matter of elephant hunting in Zimbabwe feel the need to make ridiculous statements? How does a joke go on for 4 pages?

AR at its best.

13 October 2014, 19:31

tendrams

quote:
Originally posted by RCG:
This is getting serious. I have the feeling that Doug Chester, Esq will be making an appearance. On whose side remains to be seen.

Any thread is a winner in my book when "Doug Chester, Esq." gets brought up! Hysterical!

13 October 2014, 20:09

Buzz Charlton

What a loss of what would have been a great report! Kim unlike the vast majority of us has a great writing style, is amusing and had an interesting story to tell.

I have seen it time and time again where by people are scared off ( or more to the point "bored off") by complete idiots. Richard Harland was one of them- he was given a lecture by a "gentleman" on the merits of a 458 which in his eyes was not adequate for dangerous game hunting, even going as far as questioning the accuracy of Richards books- all from a hunter who had shot a single buff in his life! I have it myself with an "arm chair hunter specialist" regarding lions- it just gets to the point where it just aint worth the hassle.

One of the few advantages of living in 3rd world Africa is it teaches us not to "sweat the small stuff"! ( who would care if your good friends found out that you were duped in a great and humours joke like pretty much everyone else!)Surely there must be more important stuff to spend ones time one even if you did not see the humour in Kims joke?

13 October 2014, 21:15

JTEX

13 October 2014, 21:38

Neil Duckworth

Congrats on the bull. What were the measurements ? Circumference and length out at lip?

13 October 2014, 21:47

Neil Duckworth

Sorry only read page 1 ,ignore my previous comment.

14 October 2014, 00:22

dyker

Buzz isn't it sad how so many people stopped posting because of this negativity. I do know that, if I were a PH back home, I would not post here after some of the recent threads. You appear to be very tolerant. I'd like to have a doro with you some day. Cheers.

14 October 2014, 02:15

ForrestB

I'm pretty sure I'd rather share a camp with Kim than with Indy.

14 October 2014, 03:13

Indy

quote:
Originally posted by ForrestB:
I'm pretty sure I'd rather share a camp with Kim than with Indy.

I would rather you did that too.

14 October 2014, 04:09

Bill C

Shake it off Kim.

The antihunters will soon find another to villainize, and with this in the past I am pretty sure you can handle a little conflict here on AR. You do possess the sharpest pen.

Speaking of which, if you stop posting I will need to resubscribe to the Word of the Day to keep my vocabulary fresh.

14 October 2014, 04:15

Frostbit

quote:
Originally posted by Bill C:

Speaking of which, if you stop posting I will need to resubscribe to the Word of the Day to keep my vocabulary fresh.

but true!!

I got baffooned by the picture as did the others at Joyce's Pronghorn hunt. I initially said no way, then I saw it was KPete and thought he's one of the sharpest knives in the drawer and would not author such shananigans.

Surprise, surprise.

14 October 2014, 04:32

AnotherAZWriter

Every day someone pulls a prank on some unsuspecting person. Not everyone reacts to a prank the same way. To expect everyone to react the same way is a pretty tall task, kind of a form of PC (or should we say AR politically correct?) humor I guess. Perhaps Indy emailed this to one of his friends who now think he is an idiot for thinking this was real; I have no idea. But the point is, what is funny to one person is not to another. Google "Hitler loved Brett Favre." I find that YouTube video hysterically funny, but one person told me he found it disgusting. Am I to think less of him because he doesn't agree with the great AZW? Of course not.

Calling Kim a liar was obviously over the top, as he was intent on making this a joke from the get go. But pummeling anyone who thinks this joke wasn't funny is a bit too harsh. Indy has a lot of experience that we can all learn from.

14 October 2014, 16:15

buckeyeshooter

quote:
Originally posted by shakari:
Gotta say that if they were mine, I'd be looking at ways to ship them to somewhere like Europe or elsewhere where there isn't an import ban because there's no way on God's earth, I'd be happy with leaving them in Africa and most certainly not leaving them with the Zim Govt.

Yep, I think I'd just have to stay in Africa until I could bring those home. I don't think I could give them up.

14 October 2014, 16:46

DCS Member

I'm sure many here griping about KPete's post got a chuckle out of the "Booze Charlatan" video. I still wonder why I'm still here, but there are so many great resources here about hunts I'd like to take, or just dream about taking. I suppose it's like a drug or car wreck, you keep looking or coming back. However, it's sad to see great, knowledgable and wonderful contributors leave. Hell, Selby didn't stick around. Boddington departed here. Watts just changed careers. Sullivan got smart after a few posts. There are many others who are not "big names" that got tired of the BS. I just hate it. As one looking to learn more about African hunting than my two hunts in RSA, this has been a great resource. However, the griping drives me nuts.

I did like when we got together to help injured and fallen PHs like like Stu, Ant, et al. Well, those went to the crapper eventually.

14 October 2014, 23:08

Safaris Botswana Bound

BUZZ , Kim - well bloody done , just returned from the bush and saw this on Facebook first and said to my good lady - Bloody hell now our big Botswana bulls are realy going to Zim.

as a few 100 pound bulls were shot in the dieing days of Botswana that had escaped being shot while still in the 80-90 pound range - i thought it actualy quite possible, so the joke was a superb one.

The fact it sent the anti hunting brigade into a fuzzy tiz - was the cherry on top. I think you may have stumbled onto a diamond idea - we all know how they bullshit the general public with lies and mistruth - if we all started sending bS stories and photos , they would go viral and then we could press release the truth leaving them with mud on their face - just a thought - but well done - in these times we all need a good chuckle at ourselves.

16 October 2014, 19:02

fairgame

Always great to have some humour in camp and that was champion.