We have had a lot of discussion on penetration comparisons between RN solids and FN solids. I common statement made and seemingly accepted by many of you is that " RN solids do not penetrate in a straight line. They tend to go off course." I grant that there have been creditable reports of that happening with A2 hemispherical RN homogenous metal solids. In fact Clem Coetze, a Zim culling officer, mentioned in to me in the late 80's.

I have used both Hornady RN steel jacketed solids from a 375 H&H on buff and Woodleigh RN steel jacketed solids from a 465 H&H. 458 Lott and 470 on buff and elephant and have never had any indication of anything but straight line penetration. I have also never heard a first hand account of one going off course in animal tissue. Can any one give an example of a RN steel jacketed solid going off course in an animal?

465H&H

I can't remember offhand if the Trophy Bonded is steel jacketed or not...... get an idea it's not..... but in case it is steel and FWIW, I've seen quite a few of them (mostly in 375 H&H) distort, change path and fail to penetrate. The worst of these was a client who shot at an eland bull from about 100-150 yards. The bullet killed the animal, so I guess one could argue it wasn't a failure, but we found the bullet had entered between the ribs but failed to exit the other side. When we found the bullet, it was against the ribs on the opposite side and bent (literally) like a banana.

The original ones made by Jack Carter were made from naval bronze. The current version I'm not sure about.

My experience with Woodlleigh RN F.M.J. in 470NE was staight line penatration on Buffalo.

The TB is not a steel jacketed solid.

465H&H

Sorry to have wasted your time.....b

All of the Woodleighs that I have shot, that I could track, shot straight so far as I could tell. Some tumbled; when they tumbled they still seemed to keep a staight course, but further penetration was very limited. Some I've recovered had split bases. I think these tumbled and then hit solid bone, well past the point where they did their jobs killing the animal.

FWIW, I followed a North Fork flat nose solid that curved, but the curve wasn't noticeable or significant until maybe 4' of penetration and then wasn't much. That bullet had a divit in the nose from striking bone.

JPK

Of a couple dozen or so Woodleigh and Hornady RN steel jacketed solids I have fired into buff, hippo and elephant, I have managed to recover only three bullets.

I recovered two .510" 600 grain Woodleighs from elephant body shots (both "insurance" shots), and I recovered one .458" 500 grain Woodleigh from a raking shot on a running buff taken at 100 yards.

Some of the unrecovered solids (I'm not sure how many) did not fully penetrate, but were lost. Most whistled right through. I suspect that the non-penetrating bullets must have struck big or multiple bones.

The recovered solids were all in good shape. The base on one of the .510" Woodleighs was slightly split on one side, but otherwise, had it not been for the rifling marks, that one and the others could have been mistaken for new bullets.

I have never had anything to complain about as a result of using RN steel jacketed solids from Hornady or Woodleigh.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Sorry to have wasted your time.....b

Not wasted at all! I'm sure all who read this thread would like to know about a failure with any kind of solids. I've only used the original TBSHs, those were in 416cal on buffalo, where they seemed to perform as expected...given that they all made an exit!

We were hunting elephant in Zimbabwe, and towards the end of the hunt, we came across a good bull to shoot early in the morning.

The bull was feeding amongst some trees, and we got closer and closer to him.

When we got to about 30-40 yards, he sensed our presence, and turned around to look at us. I presenting a good frontal shot.

I fired and my PH fired. The bull dropped stone dead from my brain shot. Roy had a 460 Weatherby Magnum, loaded with the old Hornady RN solid. He was trying to shoot for the heart through the trunk. His bullet went into the trunk, changed direction and disappeared, never hitting the elephant's body at all.

I would imagine EVERY type of bullet would chgange direction sometime.

If there is one thing I've heard over and again from those in the know (I'm not yet) is that they've never seen a big assed Woodleigh solid fail, if the shot is true. It think Buzz says this too on his ele DVD.

I have never personally had a problem with a woodleigh solid from 9,3. All hea shots have exited or gone right through to lodge in the body.

No bullet I have seen yet is fool proof. Hit the teeth and any jacketed solid is in trouble! As the impact velocity increases so do the number of "funny happenings". I have seen .375 woodleighs distort badly and begin to loose direction on the proficiency exam (but not so that I would call it a failure). Have also seen Barnes super solids bend an mushroom! Like Saeed said, there is a failure waiting in almost every bullet!

Kevin Robertson (doctati) always downloaded his .375 to 2450fps - just slow enough to prevent the occasional failure. In my 9,3 start velocity is only 2380-2400fps, and like I said, the blunt nosed woodleighs perform wonderfully!

After dissecting hundreds of elephants, some of them in the company of Art Alphin, I believe that the flat nosed solids perform best - if they are hard enough!!!! A squares bullet metal is a heck of a lot harder than Barnes ( you can see some of the rifling forming a cloud every time you pull the trigger on an A square load!)

So why do I ontinue to use woodleighs? Well a 9,3 is a bit short of case capaity to throw a 286grn mono fast enough for my liking, and the woodleighs just work. Why chnge a winning formula? Same goes for the double.

I'd agree that flat nosed bullets penetrate considerably better than round nosed ones. My favourite mono metal solid by far is the GS Custom.

I've always liked the Woodleigh bullets as well, although, from my experience, you do have to pay close attention to the minimum and maximum terrminal velocity speeds printed on the packet. - Especially with the SPs.

/

Alf,

Do you mean that RN tumble/flip in the body, but FN don't?

/

Well, like Doctari recounted the performance of his 505 Gibbs with older Kynoch reprimed loads. They hardly ever exited, tumbled like mad and made a real mess of things. The results were said to be nothing short of spectacular, as I recall.

Thanks Alf, you learn something new every day huh!

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Do you guys guys consider the fact that RN Solids whether Monometals or FMJ's that flip around in target a "failure"?
The reason I bring this up is the fact that they all flip in target, it's a physical and biological constant and the distance at which it happens is dependent on projectile geometry. The distance is in fact predictable to a formula that has been validated based on serial flash x-ray pictures of the bullets progression in the target.

Alf,

From my bullet digging, it is apparent that the .458" Woodleigh round nose solids tumble - some of the time. If they do tumble, it is after they have penetrated well and lost considerable speed and it seems the trigger is an extra rapid loss of speed. Not all of them tumble. Some, many, come to rest nose first. Since the path of a tumbled bullet is so obvious, it is clear that these many did not tumble and the nose first attitude was no fluke.

My digging also shows that flat nose solids penetrate better than round nose solids regardless of whether the round nose tumbles.

JPK

/

Alf,

Yes, in muscle you can tell if the bullet has been tumbling, even if you happen to find it nose first. The wound channel and the blood shot and bruising that a tumbling bullet creates are visibly different than that of the non-tumbling bullet. You can even tell if the bullet is tumbling on two or three axis if you pay attention and go slow.

Also, my pinky finger makes an excellent probe for .458" solid wound channels! You can feel the changing dimensions, or the chaging texture and consistency of surrounding muscle of a wound channel when the bullet has tumbled. But the wound channel is pretty consistent when the bullet has not tumbled.

JPK

Alf's comment depends upon the FN solid not deforming in animal tissue. In actual tests it has been shown that they often do deform to one degree or another. Take a look at the pictures that 500 grains provided in his article on bullet penetration in Dangerous Game. In the Bridger bullet picture three of the 6 recovered bullets show some nose deformation. Although this small amount may not significantly influence penetration depth. Also at least two and possibly three show bending at the crimping grove about 3/4 of the way back from the nose. That bending suggests that the bullet had or will tumble or go of course. The GS Custom bullets show even more deformation. Three of five show a significant amount of nose deformation and bending just behind the nose. It appears that those bullets recovered from elephant head shots had more deformation than those from soft tissue. Perhaps that is why he concluded that on elephant heads "Woodleigh (RN steel jacketed solids) penetrated the deepest, with GS Custom and Bridger coming in second and third".



465H&H

Saeed
I bet that ele was inhaling at just that moment!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Can any one give an example of a RN steel jacketed solid going off course in an animal?

I cannot.

This Woodleigh steel jacketed solid 450 grain/.404 Jeffery went a bit off course.

Hunted buffalo in mid November 2007 in Save with Gordon Duncan, Shangaan hunters.

I shot the dagga boy right in his nose when he was going to charge the second time. Distance ca 60 paces. The bullet hit a tooth and made a slight turn, penetrating the far right side of the bulls brain, and was found in the rear part of the scull.

On many ocassions solids and softs turn over when the velocity sheds to nil..usually the last couple of inches, if not then it will make and exit hole...Doesn't hurt anything.

I prefer a flat nose solid with a cutting shoulder regardless of what anyone says, thats just my choice to make and it has worked consistently for me...

If you want to solve this problem once and for all,I suggest you perform the SHOOTAWAY BULLET TOUGHNESS TEST.[URL= ]a[/URL] See which bullet is DEFORMED LESS after the VICE and HAMMER.This is how I test my bullets.I hope it becomes YOUR WAY.

quote:

the SHOOTAWAY BULLET TOUGHNESS TEST

Wow. No doubt a source of very useful information.

Husky et al

Teeth, Zygomatic arches and tusk bases are the objects that cause solids to fail. If you don't hit one of these any bullet should perform fine. I don't know what brand of Bullets W-R in Germany uses but I saw 2 of his loads stop against the tusk bases of a big bull from a .500 NE. They didn't really deform. They just stopped!

quote:

f you want to solve this problem once and for all,I suggest you perform the SHOOTAWAY BULLET TOUGHNESS TEST.[

Ah! that explains part of it, but shitaway can you explain to us how you manage to wedge your head in the vice(I see it's set to the appropriate width for a pinhead) yet get enough moment on the mallet to beat your head? jorge

Like Saeed said, there are no guarantees with any solid. Most of the TB and Woodleigh bullets solids I used were either slightly distorted or more so. Even had an old Barnes mono solid distort once. That would take some doing.

I never had a distorted solid with the now obsolete Speer AGS solids.

The flat nose mono solids like the Barnes, North Fork, etc., probably have the least probably of distorting and there will deflect less.

yes, but he did mention he only used them on buff; didnt consider them good enough for elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Well, like Doctari recounted the performance of his 505 Gibbs with older Kynoch reprimed loads. They hardly ever exited, tumbled like mad and made a real mess of things. The results were said to be nothing short of spectacular, as I recall.

hi
I asked the same question to my beloved nurs syster Lena . which is an exopert on this matter and she said : nothing is better than solid penetration and larger the caliber is the result is better . a bullet which bends at impact is horrible and not be desired . i have confidence in her statment in her more than 20 yeras of experience as a nurs . she is realy expert.
regards
yes

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Like Saeed said, there are no guarantees with any solid. Most of the TB and Woodleigh bullets solids I used were either slightly distorted or more so. Even had an old Barnes mono solid distort once. That would take some doing.

I never had a distorted solid with the now obsolete Speer AGS solids.

The flat nose mono solids like the Barnes, North Fork, etc., probably have the least probably of distorting and there will deflect less.

I don't often disagree with Will but the whole point of this thread was to show where RN solids go off course. I have 19 Woodleigh RN solids recovered from elephant in 465, 458 and 475 diameters. Most were from head shots two show a small pimple of lead coming out of the base but that should have nothing to do with their penetration abilities. One shows moderate flattening at the base from hitting an elephant femur on the off side. The elephant leg was disabled. I slso had one that showed cracking about 3/8" up from the base. None of the 19 show any nose deformation at all. So that is two out of nineteen or 10.5%. I have nine 300 grain Hornady solids recovered from buffalo. None show any deformation. The pictures supplied above by 500 grains show eleven recovered FN monometal solids recovered from game. At least six show some amount of length wise bending and/or nose deformation for 54.5%. Based on these data I make the case that FN solid monometal bullets are MORE likely to deform that RN steel jacketed solids.

But Saeed is correct in that any solid can fail but it happens so seldom with good RN steel jacketed or FN monometal solids as to be a non-event. I would confidently use either to hunt buff or elephants.

465H&H

465H&H,

Regarding your comment on the deformed noses of flat nose solids, I don't think that the relatively minor definition represents a failure or near failure or leads to any likely hood of the bullet straying off straight line penetration.

I've never had a round nose Woodleigh that I recovered show nose deformation either, btw, and I don't think the pimple of lead at the base is significant, but I do think splitting or significant flattening are near failures. I believe they occur most often after the has penetrated significantly, slowed and then begun to tumble, well after bullet has done its job and so the flatten and minor splitting aren't really material.

I've recovered only one of the North Fork flat noses and ten or so Woodleigh round noses. I've shot about an equal number of each either as hunting shots or later experimental shots into dead elephants. Tracks have been straight for each, so far as I have been able to tell, and I try, except for the late and minor deviation noted for the one recovered North Fork that had a divit in its nose and that curved after ~4' of penetration.

So even if the flat noses are showing some nose deformation, they are tracking as straight as the round noses and penetrating much further as well, exiting or making them that much harder to find.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Like Saeed said, there are no guarantees with any solid. Most of the TB and Woodleigh bullets solids I used were either slightly distorted or more so. Even had an old Barnes mono solid distort once. That would take some doing.

I never had a distorted solid with the now obsolete Speer AGS solids.

The flat nose mono solids like the Barnes, North Fork, etc., probably have the least probably of distorting and there will deflect less.

I don't often disagree with Will but the whole point of this thread was to show where RN solids go off course. I have 19 Woodleigh RN solids recovered from elephant in 465, 458 and 475 diameters. Most were from head shots two show a small pimple of lead coming out of the base but that should have nothing to do with their penetration abilities. One shows moderate flattening at the base from hitting an elephant femur on the off side. The elephant leg was disabled. I slso had one that showed cracking about 3/8" up from the base. None of the 19 show any nose deformation at all. So that is two out of nineteen or 10.5%. I have nine 300 grain Hornady solids recovered from buffalo. None show any deformation. The pictures supplied above by 500 grains show eleven recovered FN monometal solids recovered from game. At least six show some amount of length wise bending and/or nose deformation for 54.5%. Based on these data I make the case that FN solid monometal bullets are MORE likely to deform that RN steel jacketed solids.

But Saeed is correct in that any solid can fail but it happens so seldom with good RN steel jacketed or FN monometal solids as to be a non-event. I would confidently use either to hunt buff or elephants.

465H&H

465H&H,

I do not doubt in the slightest that you have had no deformations from your round nose solids, but I have. I think that the only thing proved by this discusiion is that some fail (deflect) but most don't. It is difficult to predict what a bullet will do under all the near infinite circumstances that a solid bullet will find itself.

Since Woodleigh-like solid bullets have been dinging elephants for nearly a century is testimonial enough, even if one does something strange once in awhile.

I have had only one strange occurance with a 480 Woodleigh Solid out of my 450 No2.

I shot my first elephant at 6 yards. I was slightly above and it was an angled frontal brain shot, [ not quite hald way between full frontal and side brain].

The elephant went right down.

The bullet was recovered past the skull brain pan, the hole in the back of the skull bieng calibre sexed, ie not tumbling.

However the Woodleigh was split from the base to about halfway up.

I do not think the bullet was hit by a skinners axe but I cannot entirely rule it out.

JPK I agree completely with your comments. Will, I also believe what you say. 450No2, sounds like you had more than enough straight line penetration from a split bullet. I sent the woodleigh with the split base to Geoff McDonald of Woodleigh and he came back with the comment that it is difficu7lt to get steel cores of the right hardness level. Too hard (brittle) and they split and cause barrel damage, too soft and they bend. Quality control is very very important.
Let's all say it together, "There is no such thing as the perfect solid!".

465H&H

/

quote:

"There is no such thing as the perfect solid!".

465H&H,

I'll sign on to this!! But I believe that the flat nose solids like GS Custom or North Fork are the better choice. I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with either round nose or flat nose solids though.

Alf,

Read my prior post, then read 465H&H's post. We both seems to agree with you, though I don't believe that round noses tumble all of the time, just some of the time. Don't want to speak for 465H&H but his response to my post seems to indicate that both of our experience tells us that the bullets don't tumble until they have lost significant velocity, if they are going to tumble at all, and so if they do, its well after they have done what they need to do.

JPK