I'm on to one of my favourite gripes again. I'm just curious about the feeling of the average hunter, as judged by the members/visitors of AR forum (?), about the spreadig bad practice of many hunting outfitters of buying some trophy size male animals at a game auction. These are then delivered into a smallish fenced area a few days before the first hunting clients, who were offered guaranteed trophies of the particular species, arrive. I refer to it as put-and-take hunting. IMHO its much like fishing for trout in an artificial pond using a worm as bait. Canned hunting?

What are the experiences of the members? Have any of you shot an animal "right next to the high gameproof fence", where the poor unadapted translocated beast was trying to escape from the strange enclosure, or just learning the boundaries of the new game area? I know that it is quite posible to ethically hunt an animal and happen to find ione right next to the fence, but if your kudu, and your gemsbuck, and your whatever were all found next to the fence, have you ever wondered?

If your chosen hunting outfitter told you up-front that: "You are guaranteed a 50"+ kudu, because we will have ten such kudu delivered into our area 2 days before yor arrival." Would you knowingly hunt such an animal? Would you then bragg about the trophy? If the outfitter told you that some or all of the trophies offered were canned, would you continue making the booking arrangements with such an outfitter? Have anyone ever asked his chosen outfitter to give a specific statement about the "truely wild and natural adapted in the environment" status of the trophies offered?

Asking around in South Africa I am alarmed at the number of hunting outfitters who do exactly this, except that the client is usually kept in the dark, and not told that he will be hunting a "canned" kudu! If canned lion is bad, what makes canned kudu, or gemsbok or whatever OK to hunt?

I also have some pretty sure-thing kudu hunting coincessions, on which I could 'almost' guarantee a good kudu. But nowhere are any of these bought in just before the hunting season starts! These good areas have either been protected for many years (like my favourite concession called "Kuduparadize") or were just very conservatively managed for many years.

Please let me hear your views on hunting "canned" or "put and take" plains game. I don't offer any such hunting, but it seems that my outfitting business is one of a small minority who only offers animals which are well adapted, bred and born on, the area in which they are hunted.

Verewaaier.

I don't have anything to do with put and take ranches..but all of So. Africa is fenced for the most part as I suspect you are..some ranches are large and the game is born and raised there, but the fence is still there....

I have no concern over fences, the whole world has barriers of one kind or another, so I look at the size of the ranch more than any thing else...40,000 hectares of bush is a lot of bush..Most of the concessions I represent are from 40 to 75,000 hectares and one is 500,000 acres in the eastern cape...I have seen some smaller places that could challange any hunter....

The bottom line should be is it a fair chase hunt...the option is up to the hunter himself....I hear so much tripe about fenced hunting but those same folks would jump on a chance to hunt a fenced ranch in Africa for the most part...

Anyone can have a concession hunt or hunt where no fences exist, just give me a call...but not everyone can afford that, so much the shame, but hey thats life in the big city. Take a good fenced hunt in RSA, I don't know anyone who didn't enjoy it....

This is probably going to upset some people, but knowing what I know now, I would never hunt in RSA. It is too developed and even if the concessions are large (which many are not), it is still hunting behind a fence. I made the mistake of hunting there twice (even hunting buffalo on one trip). I wish I had been better informed at the time.

I have seen hunters who have only hunted RSA and have taken lion, elephant, leopard and buffalo. It is amazing to me to think that some hunters will make multiple trips to Africa and hunt dangerous game in RSA. Imagine the amount of money they are spending, the cost of a lion in RSA can be over $30,000. In additon, I think the prices charged in RSA, even for plains game, have risen to a level that is bordering on theft. I have seen some Daily Rates for plains game over $450 and Observer Rates of $200. Those prices are totally unreasonable, not to mention the high Trophy Fees.

RSA is a money making scheme with very little "feel of Africa". Many experiences in RSA do not even qualify as hunts.

Let me go back in time to 1998 (the year of my first safari), I should have booked a buffalo hunt in the Zambezi Valley (big deal if I didn't see herds of plains game) and then spent some time in Capetown and the wine country. I now know that two or three earned trophies mean a lot more than a wall full of trophies shot behind a fence in RSA.


Regards,

Terry

T. Carr,

I know you have more experience of African hunting than I do -lots more- but I�d still like to differ with you on one point: Not all plainsgame hunting in the RSA is "canned" (physically or ethically) and I think�that one can have an enjoyable hunt for a nice price if you just shop around a bit. And the RSA is a safe place to get to learn the ropes on African hunting.

I do feel the same on DRG though (even if I haven�t yet hunted any DRG type game -is a civet cat DRG?) and when I go on my buff/leopard hunt I�ll be looking for the open range in Zim or Moz.

The feel of Africa I carry with me wherever I go.

I think that now the US$ has decreased relatively in value to the rand some shake-ups may occur.

One problem with all these discussions.

There wouldn't be supply without demand!

Verewaaier

Your getting close to a lot of peoples meal tickets!

Expect to bitten by a few.



I to wished I would have hunted some of the wilder areas of Zimbabwe or Namibia. I just did not know how penned most of South Africa was. Few Americans realize on most hunting farms, They know the exact number and size of 99 % of the animals because most were bought at auction.



After the plane gets back to the states. It seams most of the South African hunting areas get larger, animals wilder and PHs get better.



Verewaaier I can only wonder how stupid most South African must think we foreign hunters are.

How many days can you drive on a 2000 hectare ranch before you realize seeing 32 different species eating out of feed troughs isn't a normal African Experience. Or is it?





Verewaaier thanks for a true post. I hope you have thick skin!

No matter how much you knock it, RSA will still be providing hunting when other African countries are finally conquered as one big shanty town with corrugated iron to the horizon....
OK, yes it is true some (many?) raches are pretty small, I know that areas of 40,000 exist but there are 75 others for each big are that are maximum 2000 hectares. Does it mean they are all stocked anually? Does it mean you can corner an animal in 2000 hectares and shoot him in a corner?
I know that no true hunter would accept a guaranteed hunt for a stocked animal, but on the other hand demanding a true wilderness experience for everyone means many more people will stay home and play deerhunter rather than get out and do some hunting!!!
I think that there are variable levels of "wilderness" in each hunting area around the world...some European reserves look like well-managed parks, some are completely wild. Similarly, some RSA game farms are like a cattle ranching operation with animals coming in alive and leaving dead, others have a few dirt tracks and a thatched hut near the gate with native game. For the record, if hunted too hard the animals in a game farm can be even spookier than those in a true wilderness area!!!

The absolute bottom line of this discussion is that some of us have very strong opinions. Please keep in mind that they are just that; opinions. If you don't want to hunt in a fenced area, no matter how large, don't do so. Spend your time and money doing something you enjoy, or not. It is your time and your money. Keep in mind that others might not share your opinion, and that does not make them wrong.

I do not offer properties that do put-and-take game stocking. No, I do not believe in put-and-take hunting. I am aware a lot of it goes on. My opinion on high fence outfits is that they do offer fair chase hunting in most cases. At least the ones I have hunted on. I am sure there are others that don't. I do not market those either. I have turned away potential clients because of that.

Don't forget, some animals are fenced on purpose. Where do we think the rhino would be now if they were not fenced and privately owned?

I have hunted on high fence properties and NEVER cornered or had an animal shot near a fence. I have never seen all male herds of game. All of my guys maintain healthy breeding populations and monitor the numbers verses the available browse and graze for their game species. I have seen kudu jump fences and plenty of others go under them. I also know of one outfitter who lost a herd of eland when they decided to demolish the fence just because they could. Fences are often not a deterent to the game. They are also not always a deterent to poachers either.

To the best of my knowledge I've never been o a "put and take" operation. And if an outfitter of booking agent guarantees I'll take a certain size animal, I won't do business with them. I'd much rather have someone tell me"this is what we average on such & such. There are bigger ones but hunting is hunting, and although we'll hunt hard for them, you never know".

We all do put & take hunting. Nature put them there and we take them!

First off, I have no problem with anyone that wants to hunt fenced areas; it's your money. Cattle fencing is one thing, high wire is another. What really gets my goat is when someone compares high fencing to natural "barriers" such as mountains, rivers, etc.....Rockfishing Albemarle Sound in NC and seeing a black bear swimming across seven miles of open water, watching wolves, sheep, caribou, grizzly climb over the mountains into another drainage. Those natural "barriers" only stop or slow us down not the game living there. Sell a high fenced hunt for what it is.....comparing fences to mountains, rivers, etc. is sad, at best.

Joe

I tried to lighten this with my previous post. There high fences and there are high fences. North American game is basically restrained by high fences and the area is normally relatively small i e 5000> acres. In RSA I have seen Kudu jump HIGH fences with ease also Eland. Warthogs will burrow under the fence and then other small game will use those holes. The first time I hunted Pronghorns I was told when he comes to the fence he will stop and look for a place to go under shoot him then, isn't this just as bad as high fenced. Oh yea the fence was a cattle fence. In this case it was a barrier that cost him his life.

Hey T. Carr,

As a retired attorney (lawyer, by any other name) in Texas, I am sure you are aware of all the "Fenced Game Farms" in your own great state, including those that offer African Game on private land, lots of private land...sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. With all the power mongers dividing up the land, whether here in the USA or abroad, this will be the norm, not the exception. Take a more educated look around and you'll see that the money is all that matters, disquised as "CONSERVATION". RSA is a great place to visit, hunt, sight-see and enjoy, just like a lot of places. Most of us working-class grassroot types can't afford the "Wilds" in a land with an unstable government. There are a lot of reasons why folks hunt where they do, to each his own...think about it.

RHS

I'll preface this by admitting I've only been to Africa once (so far), but I find this thread to be more than a little opportunistic for a few of the participants.

While hunting in RSA with JJ's outfit, we hunted many different ranches. Most of these were fenced, however the size of the ranches was tremendous in every case, and in several cases the only time we saw a fence was when we had to open the gate to access the property. These were all very large properties.
All the game I saw, and everyone else we talked to, was very wild. The Bush was very thick, water holes were spread everywhere, and escape routes and safety areas seemed to be huge. In fact, many of the animals were very difficult to approach due to terrain, brush cover, and just plain spooky animals.
With all that, I had what I consider a quality hunting experience and I still believe everyone else in our group would agree. I guess the point is to have fun, do some great hunting, and afford to be able to do it without mortgaging the house.
Obviously, some of us won't ever have the money to hunt enough in Africa to be able to compare every type of hunting experience, but I still believe there are many quality hunts in RSA to make it a very worthwhile place to go if you spend the time to check out the outfitter you plan to book with. (with the possible exception of DG)
I agree there are plenty of places that stage what would be considered "unethical" hunts, but the direction of this thread seems to make it seem that is the norm rather than the exception. I just don't buy it.- Sheister

I am getting nervous.

I thought I had a grasp on what to expect as far as prices go to hunt a buffalo in Africa. However, I do not want to hunt in an enclosed area-unless it is extremely large, say over 25,000 acres. I figure this is large enough to make me put out some effort to bag one.(Of course my opinion can change as I learn more.)



I am not very interested in a true trophy animal, never have really cared about it in any species. What I enjoy is the experience and the process. Don't get me wrong I want a decent animal and would jump for joy if I bagged a record. I want to get into the middle of Africa, not see a fence except maybe on arrival and departure, go to where they live and take the one I outsmart that day. Not the one someone else caught and presents to me. Hell, I can do that in my backyard.



Anyway, back to my concern. Just for a starting point what is the difference in price between the typical RSA buffalo hunt(fenced) and one in an decent unfenced area? (or very large ranch)

Let's be sure we're not being hypocritical when we denounce certain things.

I once was chided by a far West Texas rancher for hunting on a ranch in central Texas for whitetails where there were high fences and feeders. Then, a few minutes later this rancher bragged that he knew where deer always crossed his land and he just sat in his pickup and drank beer until he saw one which he proceeded to shoot out the window of his vehicle with his scoped rifle.

I was hunting his land (many sections of mountains and desert) on foot with an unscoped handgun, but I was not much of a hunter in his opinion because I also shot deer on an overpopulated ranch the easy way in the Texas Hill Country .

There are ways to hunt which are sporting and ways which aren't. Fences aren't always the deciding factor.

.44,

Don't be too quick to listen to just any opinion here, including mine. RSA is great place to hunt. Been there, done that. They have a very stable government, some huge concessions that provide some great hunting experiences and some great plains game trophies. I'm going back in June and will only hunt fair chase. What some are calling fenced areas depends much on the actual circumstances. If you truly want a "Wild" area to hunt in Africa, better hurry, those days are drawing to a close...I'll spend my hard earned money where I can feel secure and enjoy the chase. I don't recognize those who would play judge as to how my experiences "rank"...

RHS

United we stand,divided we fall.

Hunting behind a fence is not my thing...but I have

no problems with it if you want to.Don't let the anti's

divide us.



Same with hound hunting.Some deer hunters think it's ok

if they close bear hunting with hounds.Will not affect them.

My sport today,yours tommorow.



Same with guns.Some people own guns JUST for hunting.They

say why does a guy need an "assault" rifle anyways.My gun

today,yours tommorow.



United we stand,divided we fall.

Jeff

Truth be know hunters can affordably hunt Wild areas & Wild animals. Namibia offers many affordable & wild hunts for hunters that enjoy a true wild hunting experience. Hunters can not expect to see or hunt 20-30 different species of antelope on one hunt. This type of hunt does not existed in the wild.

I thought the original question was in regards to put and take hunting not High Fences? There is a big differance. You should all know this.

There is allot of put and take in RSA. Many of the animals that are shot, particularly on the smaller and even the larger areas, were not born on the property but bought at an auction and brought in. The question seems to revolve around the timeing of the transfer.

If the operator is slick you will probably never know if he bought the animal the week before or if it had been there for months or years. Some animals to be wary of though are the ones that would not normally be found in that particular area and that are considered 'desirable'.

This might include Cape Buffalo, Lion, Hartmans Zebra, Nyala, many of the little antelopes. Mountain Zebra didn't migrate to the Northern Transvaal and neither did Gemsbok.

Cape Buffalo haven't always existed in the parks south of Pretoria, nor have Black Wildebeest.

If you don't care than don't ask. If you do care you may not get the truth anyway.

hi
fenced or not it is a reality that the echonmical interest keeps those games alive,if there were not some money to keep the games then they will disapear very quickly. naturally hunting fenced animal is not ethical, but it depends to the size of area. the situation is worse in some european countries.without fences maybe hungry poachers terminate all those animals very quickly in africa. i,ve never been there but in europe there are plenty of put and take huntings and nobody cares or blames it.
regards
Danny

I have hunted about everywhere there is to hunt in Africa and those places I have not hunted I have visited at one time or another most likly...

I still enjoy a good plainsgame hunt in RSA..I like to hunt the Seleti Game Preserve in the old Transvall, the mountainous regions of the eastern cape, the area around Kwa Zulu natal and many other places, I doubt that anyone who has hunted the elusive vall Rhebok, Mt. Reedbuck in the higher regions could dare say that is not fair chase, or anyone who has hunted the lowveld for the Bushbuck on his ground could call that unfair....Those that protest simply have not been there IMO or were introduced to a less than fair chase ranch, which do abound, thats for sure...

For the information of some here who are professing otherwise a lot of RSA is huge land holdings with only 3 strands of barbwire...So is Texas.

There is a certain area of The old Transvall where you pass one game farm after another, a regular cafateria of 2000 ac. ranches, chuck full of American hunters..I don't hunt these places but don't care who does...I learned a long time ago that what some folks protest about they eventually end of doing....

I suspect RSA will be around and stil in the hunting business when Gab blows his horn, regardless of internet jabber...At least I get a lot of happy hunters back each year that are estatic over their adventure...

If you have hunted on private farms in RSA (that�s everywhere except the Kruger concessions and the national park land) you hunted behind a fence somewhere and the animals you were hunting were placed there at one time or another. RSA was largely devoid of game animals during the 50's. If you wanted to see African animals, you went to a national park or a handful of private game farms.



It was not until hunting became big business that game farming became popular. During the 80's there was an almost explosive growth in RSA hunting. Accordingly, game capture and seeding became popular. In fact, during this time, there was more money in game capture and seeding than in hunting. Today, every Dutchman with 20 hectare and three impala is in the business.



The bottom line, hunting in RSA is still popular, however, if you want open area hunting, you need to focus on Mozambique, Tanzania, Namibia, and Zim (if anything is left to hunt).



So if you don�t want to hunt on put and take farms in RSA, you best focus on the Timbivati (if it ever opens back up to hunting) or the Klaserie. Be prepared to pay through the nose to hunt these areas...

Back to the original question

What is the definition of "put and take"?

I know it is buying animals at auction and releasing them on a property to be hunted.

But it relates to the difficulty of hunting them obviously.

If these animals are all wild animals bred in similar properties they wouldn't take long to acclimatise, especially if the new property is large.

Is it unethical for "put and take" to release animals and hunt them the same year, perhaps doing this every year?

Personally I do not like this sort of place.

However the game may be very wild and nervous by the end of the hunting season even with this, if the property has been hard hunted during the year.

How many months or years until the animal is "ethical"?

I have seen released deer in the wild from deer farms (when it was still legal here) and even a year later they are nowhere near as wild as their wild-born cousins. On the other hand someone isn't shooting at them every week either.

I think a large number of properties even some unfenced ones will have introduced game, either the same species or more likely additional species.

You are kidding yourselves if you think otherwise.

Ray Atkinson:

I like a man who is clear on his standing on controversial matters. Yes, South Africa is “virtually” all fenced, and your assessment is quite right: So are all the concessions where I offer hunting. Some are large, some smaller. The way to look at the size of a ranch is not really the total number of hectares fenced in, it is really the number of typical territories or home ranges for a particular hunted species that it covers. This must be viewed in conjunction with the number of trophies of species X taken off every year.
You say: “The bottom line is: Is it a fair chase hunt?” My question is really: Does the average person reading the post on AR forum consider hunting such recently-released animals as a fair chase?

Terry Carr:

You bring up a very valid point: South Africa does have DG hunting, but seldom are these fair chase hunts and as far as I know the cost is very high when compared to a similar hunt in some other African countries. The point of my post was however to hear views on the fair chase status of canned antelope hunting.

Cewe:

As a South African Hunting Outfitter I “have” to agree with you. As a hunter who learned to hunt, and the concept of fair chase from my father in South Africa, all on some form of fenced property, I know that there are lots and lots of real fair chase hunting taking place on large and small areas, be they fenced high or low. I go on a few of my own ‘private’ hunts each year. Every year I hunt at least once on a concession that is fenced with cattle and sheep as well as blackback jackal proof fences only. This means that springbok, steenbok and duiker (the main species hunted) cannot readily leave [or enter] the property. Kudu, being such good jumpers, can and do come and go as they like! IMHO there is nothing unethical about my hunting there, and I enjoy these hunts very much!

Robert Johnson:

Yes, Robert, I do expect to be bitten by a few, those who are guilty of offering such PUT-AND-TAKE hunting as a norm. For example, Ray has certainly not bitten me [yet?], but stated clearly that he has nothing to do with such practices.

Please don’t count me as part of your “most” South Africans who think that foreign hunters are stupid. Any one area is usually only ideal habitat for a relatively small number of species. You need really big real estate to have natural breeding free ranging and trophy producing populations of more than about ten or so species.

No, my skin is not thick enough to not bleed when bitten. But the wounds will heal, and I will have learnt who bites. And why do they bite? Because they offer 32 species on one property, many species available only by put-and-take means!

NitroX:

You say: “There wouldn't be supply without demand!” Yes, very true. I’m trying to establish the actual demand, i.e. the feeling of a hunters who are informed beforehand that he/she is offered a canned plains game trophy.

Boghossian:

You bring up many valid points and seem to grasp the situation quite well. Your statement about the more they are hunted the spookier they get is particularly true. I would almost say that the bigger the property, the easier the hunt is as a rule, of course with the exception of what my post is about, hunting recently delivered auction bought trophies.

patrkyhntr:

Your point is taken in the good spirit in which it was made. I’m merely trying to get prospective hunters visiting South Africa better informed on what to expect here. Then they can decide how to spend their money.

Ann:

Your clear and unequivocal condemnation of a practice about which you say “ a lot of it goes on” just pushed my regards for Aspen Hill Adventures a notch or two higher! Prospective hunters take note!

Die Ou Jagter:

Slim storie!

KevinNY:

No, not stirring the mud for the sake of stirring it. But some mud may get stirred up in the process. I hope my marketing smells of ethical fair chase hunting offered!

RHS:

I agree that RSA is a great hunting venue. I know. I live and hunt here!

Sheister:

You had obviously not been offered any “canned” animals on your hunt. Re-reading my post it is clear that the choice of words were not made with the required degree of caution. The really big time operators who hold vast areas as single fenced concessions generally do not need to do any canned hunting. So saying that I feel to be part of a small minority of hunting outfitters who do not offer canned hunting may be skewing the facts a bit. By far most of the hunting undertaken in South Africa is not canned. It is not the norm, I hope that it will never be. But my personal limited experience seems to indicate that it is a practice on the increase. In the area where I live on one of the many hunting concession areas on which I operate my three closest neighbors are all registered outfitters and they all buy trophy animals from the auctions to stock their concession areas before the season. Last year only one of them did.

Mickey1 and NitroX:

Thanks for focusing again on the real issue.
NitroX is quite right in asking for a definition of “put and take”. Only if the problem is accurately defined can we have a meaningful scientific discussion about it.

I agree with a statement made by someone that the ones to watch out for particularly are those species that did not historically occur in any particular area, and the desiareable ones at that. Like nyala in the busveldt or the Free State?

As I see it by and large most hunters would not continue booking with a specific outfitter if they were told that some of the trophies in the package offered would be canned animals. But then, as someone remarked: If you ask you are not very likely to be told the truth by the slick operators! But if the operator is really offering fair chase you are likely to be told so very clearly. And you can ask for the experiences of hunters that he lists as references.

It is a fact that fenced areas should from time to time restock new genetic material. Now one must ask: When is a "new bloodline" introduced animal considered to be fair game? I don't know. But my guess would be that after a complete breeding cycle. Or at least one complete summer or non-hunting season. True that animals which were wild bred and caught in similar habitat will adjust quickly. But I would rather err on the side of caution than the other way around.

Any other thoughts?

Verewaaier.

Verewaaier,



In 2002 I had the privelege to hunt on a very nice piece of property in KZN that had both fenced and unfenced portions. The terrain was best described as difficult as it was very hilly and thickly wooded for the most part. Some of the hill country was open pasture. All game present were seen on both sides of the high fence in good quantity. I hunted on both the high fenced area as well as the unfenced. Guess which side had the more difficult hunting?





What is sporting is obviously in the mind of the beholder concerning fences. Put and take is not, but there are some people who will do anything for a buck (meaning monetarty as well as horns). We know that is not hunting but shooting. Those are the types who like to proclaim, "mine is bigger than yours!", and don't care how they do it. But that is what makes or breaks their "sport" so who are we to deny them their day? In their minds, they are acting in a sporting way because what they did is legal, in most cases. The cooperating land owner made some money and that put a value on the game. Thankfully, most properties are not doing business this way.



I will hunt South Africa again and again and on my own terms. There is real, honest to goodness hunting opportunities to be found there and I hope it stays. I have been so impressed with the care and concern of the land owners I deal with. I wish my own neighbors were as concerned about the quality of game in my own region.

Robert Johnson,
Your post is simply not correct, I can hunt you in RSA on 500,000 acres, 200,000 acres, or another place with 150,000 acres all of which have 3 strand barb wire fencing and game is indigenous to the area and wild and free roaming..These large holding are privately owned land in the Eastern Cape.

Apparantly your "experience" is referenced to the Northern most areas of RSA....but RSA is a pretty big place...

I'm not a fan of put and take or High fences, but a fair amount of the put in RSA in the last couple of years has been because the drought did alot of taking. Quite a few Kudu have been bought at the sales to restock. As far as fences, they may do more to keep poachers out than game in. A bull kudu or eland according to my friend who has a large ranch in the northern provice, can stand flat footed and clear many of the game fences. Which might might make it kinda like herding house cats with respect to getting a bull kudu to stand by a fence for any period of time.

Ray - Not so fast. While there are a few large tract hunting areas still in operation in RSA, the preponderance of the hunting in RSA is high fenced farm hunting. I have also hunting in the Eastern Cape and it is far more open than the Northern operations, however, the animals in this area are most certainly seeded and managed. Land owners engage in animals counts and management to ensure healthy populations. If the herd is thinning a little, they will bring in some new genetics to ensure trophy quality animals.

There is a difference between put-and-take, managed game, and open plains hunting. I am hunting in Mozambique this year in an area that was only opened last year after 20+ years of non-hunting. The area is 120 by 150 miles (18,000 square miles). There are no fences, no game management, and no hunting pressure. These places still exist in Africa, but they are not prevalent in RSA.

No arguement there, never was, but a blank statement (not my you) that there are no non fenced hunts is not correct...

As to managment, the places I refer to manage only in the since that they do game capture to supply the put and take ranches, and other than that they do not manage at all, and they do not import any game into the area, never have.. they cannot manage as only a 3 strand barb fence between them and tribal lands...the animals there are Black Widebeest that were restocked to the area in the early 30's I believe, Eland, Eastern Cape Kudu, Mt. Reedbuck, Vaal Rhebok, Springbuck, Zebra and some cats, bat eared fox etc..I think thats correct on the species, maybe Zebra also.
Also the have Gemsbok that established themselves there a number of years ago, they escaped from a neighboring ranch or perhaps tribal lands and populated well over the past 50 years and they were originaly indigenous to the area I am told...

' Never been to Africa yet, But going in 2005. We are 4 guys who are going together for buff and larger plainsgame.
(We are still looking for the best prospect)
some time ago we made some terms for the hunt, what to include what not to...
One of the terms we very quickly agreed on was NO FENCES whatsoever!! No fences there. No fenced hunting ANYWHERE!
I am not saying that a canned hunt cannot be ethical and I am not saying that an uncanned hunt allways is ethical. But I choose not to hunt a fenced in animal.
People I know have gone to south Africa and came home with a good bag. I wondered how, 'cause the same people cannot hunt worth a damn here in scandinavia. Then I learned that they had been "benched" in a tower, at a concrete waterhole and all the other concrete waterholes had been deliberately dried out. I dont care how big the fenced area is, if that is the way some people prefer to get a trophy I cant even say "fine by me" I am getting sick. I feel it is a disgrace to hunting and to hunters. And besides..the anti's can have a feast on a thing like that. The size of a trophy should in most cases tell something about the luck or the skill of the hunter (the bigger the trophy, the older and wiser the animal.) But if we are buying trophy size just to be able to bragg about it, then where are we going?? To me a good trophy is, first of all, something I worked hard for, secondly.. Yes I do like it to be BIG or at least representative for the species, but not at any cost.
I do feel that the size of fenced land matters, but I cannot tell you how big I feel it should be, therefore I have chosen never to hunt a fenced area.
I feel that hunting any animal, should include at least some form of skill, be it shooting skill, as in grouse or pheasant hunting in Scotland (or here in Denmark for that matter) or the skills you need, to get close enough for a good clean kill. But I also feel that skill doesn't do it alone, the hunters ethics matter the most (hence my signature)

Guys,

Being South African, and hunting for the past 30 years or so there, I can state that yes, almost every farm is �fenced� in one way or another! I agree with both Ann and Ray here that sometimes geographic location i.e. proximity of large mountains/rivers etc also plays a large part here.

However, in many instances, animals, while not indigenous to the area, had been re-located to these areas many years ago, and have developed into fine breading herds. Also, many a farmer will certainly introduce new stock (genetic material) to ensure the long term viability of their game. Does this amount to put-and-take if this new introduced blood is harvested? I think not!

Surely we shouldn�t tar everybody in RSA with the same brush here?

Just last year I spent 5 solid days in a relatively small fenced area (10K hectares) with a bushman tracker after a huge �blue� eland (the herd was introduced in the early eighties). The terrain and the eland got the better of us!

I�m not sure about most of you, but the ONLY guarantee I ever ask for is being allowed the opportunity to hunt fairly i.e. always walk and stalk (no shooting from the back of a truck), or for the most part not from blinds: and even this is dependant on the species.

Ray, I sure am glad you cleared that up ! After reading the first posts on this strand I was getting visuals of back on back 2,000 acre high fence operations lining the road like casino's on Atlantic Boulivard.

Quite an interesting topic.....I'm a poor boy from Georgia/Alabama. Have never been on any kind of paid hunt and doubt I will ever have the money to do so. I could pay off what I owe on my house for what you guys are obviously spending/charging for a hunt. I have always hunted the land immediately surrounding my home, and have traveled a couple of times to WMA's for some hunting. I've seen a few record book class bucks in the woods, never in a situation I could get a shot, so to me some of all this trophy hunting stuff is and may remain a mystery to me. I am primarily a subsistance hunter, and every one I get anterlered or not is a trophy to me. If I had the money to burn on such an extravagance as a hunt in Africa would I take it? Absolutely, and I would not for a moment even question if the hunt was canned or not, because at that point the hunt is about antlers, horns or what ever. With enough money to burn on a hunt like you guys are talking about, we ain't talking about getting by anymore are we. So hell yes I would take the hunt, hell yes I would shoot the animal, and hell yes I would enjoy every moment of it. Any one out there want to treat me????

I shot a yearling doe one evening toward the end of this season that had been shot that morning by someone else. Ain't no caged land around here, this animal was shot most likely by someone out riding the roads spotlighting (a practice frowned upon heavily in this part of the world but practiced heavily as well, I hear it every night) and left to wander and die or become a meal for the coyotes. I wonder how likely this kind of event is on land surrounded by a high fence. Yet there are places that spotlighting is the only way to take the game being sought. Sporting? As I see it there is not now nor has there ever been anything sporting about going out and killing an animal. I enjoy the hunt, I enjoy a freezer full of meat. I enjoy memories of times past with good friends while looking for something to shoot. But mostly I find it work. Perhaps someday I will get a chance to see this mirror from a different angle, for the present the biggest question I have about next years hunt is will I be as successful as I was this year and what can I do to make that happen.

Guess all you anti put and take, anti seeding types better never hunt phesant anywhere in north america or turkey in areas where they have been planted.

/

" Yet there are places that spotlighting is the only way to take the game being sought. Sporting? "



I would hope you are refering to night time varmit hunting. Irrespective of your socioeconomic status poaching has never been and never will be sporting. We often see strands here about what each individuals "ultimate" trophy is. Well here is a description of mine. He is cunning, averages 175#, 5'8" tall, and carrys a SKS. Now there is a description of my untimate "trophy". I can only wonder if my Latin is as accurate or as vivid as my imagination.

" Fiat justitia ruat caelum "