Bwana B., My ethics are just that mine.I'm not interested in impressing anyone but the man in the mirror.
Reading back thru the search I did on canned lion hunting it seems apparent the difference in myself an many others whom have do it is...I'm not trying to pass it off as anything but what it is.
I admit the " shopping at Cabelas..." was a tad over the top.
Good shooting, DF

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:


JPK

Too bad about the NO GUN photos! Mine turned out pretty cool, and satisfies my need for rhino completely. Of course I triple made sure that mine was unloaded! According to my guys in SA some chinese have driven the price into $60'000 + and all they want is a horn! I find that a little disturbing to be honest. I had an opportunity in 2007 to shoot one for $10'000, but I could keep nothing-not even the cape. Maybe if I could have kept the cape I might have considered, but not for a photo, and not for the sake of the "BIG 5". I came out way ahead, I went to Zim and shot 2 elephants and 5 buffalo instead and had a hell of a lot more shooting fun!!!!!!

Michael

I didn't think to ask if I could carry my double rifle unloaded. PH might have agreed to that. Missed opportunity.

On the rhino horns, what's a hard dxxk worth, eh?

I had hoped that viagra and the like would have reduced pressure on the rhinos, poaching and otherwise. Apparently not even viagra can cure the problem.

JPK

JPK

I am sure you might run into another opportunity in the future, just make sure the gun has no ammo!

Jesus Christ, I don't know what the horn is worth, it must be tremendous since these chaps are willing to give $60'000 plus for the raw material???

You would think that modern drugs would have put a permanent end to this pure nonsense. I guess modern drugs have not made their way to China yet?

Michael

Canned lion hunting would be ok if--- you wear a loin cloth, leather sandals and use a handmade spear, knife and shield. (---and perhaps handmade bow and arrow.)

and ---- no one would let you out of the cage.

I just received an email from a PH that can get someone a pretty good deal on this one - if you hurry.

Allen,

there is still some pink on the nose and I see no scars. Who'd want him? Unless, of course, you have a good taxidermist who can add scars and darken the nose.

Damn, we best look out, this is hairy one, I am sure someone is going to try and book this one!

This is roll on the floor funny!!!!!
Thank YOU


Michael

Hmm, I'm guessing a five year old? Needs another year or two, eh?

looks like tooth doc won't have to go to RSA lion shopping after all.

Hmm at least 4 maybe 5 year old-shoot him!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
looks like tooth doc won't have to go to RSA lion shopping after all.

if they could shave one up to look like an old tusker I could finish my Big Five right here.

Andrew, you are not a member of PHASA (Professional Hunters Association of South Africa) which is strange if you are a registered PH. May I ask WHY you are not a PHASA member?

quote:

Originally posted by Sunshine:
Andrew, you are not a member of PHASA (Professional Hunters Association of South Africa) which is strange if you are a registered PH. May I ask WHY you are not a PHASA member?

Sunshine, you are most welcome to ask, and I have nothing to hide about why I' at present not a PHASA member. This thread, about why canned lion shooting would be OK and referring to an April Fools Day joke about the honesty of the “Canned Game Fishing Industry” , would also be a very relevant place to post my reasons for not being a PHASA member. Yet.

Years ago, on first qualifying as a PH I did join PHASA and remained a member for quite a number of years. Paid my membership regularly and received some newsletters and invitations to annual conventions from them. Did I benefit from being a member, other than receiving these communications? Yes, it entitled me to say that "I'm a member of PHASA!" Did I benefit in any other way? Nope! Was the right to claim membership of an absolutely ineffective organization worth the annual membership fee? Most certainly not! What else did PHASA do for me? Nothing for me!

Did they do anything for anyone, except the PHASA ExCo? Well it did give many young Hunting Outfitters the right to claim, for whatever that may be worth, membership of PHASA on their brochures and letterheads. What else have they done for their members? What have they done for clients that have been ripped off by their members?

So many clients that were cheated by PHASA members found out to their utter surprise that PHASA is not an organization that looks after the interest of clients cheated by PHASA members: Not at all! PHASA looked after the interest of their members first and foremost! Not the interest of clients! Where a client was cheated by a PHASA member in a blatant breach of the PHSAS "Code of Conduct" any investigation of complaints by such clients were, well, mostly inconclusive or covered up. I do not recall all the details, but I have never heard of any reprimand or serious disciplinary action taken against any member of PHASA during the years that I was a member. Yet, believe you me, some clients were very seriously cheated by PHASA members, and some did file complaints, but to the best of my knowledge nothing ever came from those! PHASA kept on looking after the interests of their members, and not the interest of clients cheated by their members! I do not cheat clients, and I therefore do not need an organization like PHASA to help me look after my interest when a client complains about being cheated by me! IMHO any client that is cheated by a PH or Hunting Outfitter has a better chance of getting some compensation from a non-member of PHASA than from a PHASA member! PHASA is [or more accurately was] very efficient in looking after the best interest of their members!

I do here admit that PHASA has in recent years taken some strong disciplinary actions against some members. I believe that Mr. Dorrington really caused a change in PHASA in this respect. I thank him here for having the guts and managerial skills and just having what it takes, to steer PHASA on this course. But do these changes for the better warrant my now again joining PHASA? I think not. Furthermore I have a serious problem about the way PHASA interprets their own “Code of Conduct”. Until this particular problem is resolved to my satisfaction I shall continue to not be a member of PHASA. Let me explain my problem with the PHASA interpretation of their Code of Conduct.

"Code of Conduct:

We hunters will conduct ourselves professionally in a manner which will reflect honesty, integrity and morality. In the spirit of fair chase the principle of sustainable utilization of our natural resources will be adhered to, and we also pledge ourselves to:

Obey all laws of the land
Will not misrepresent ourselves to clients in any way or mislead any client
Will not allow material gain to supercede principles of fair chase
Will not hunt any wild animal which is not normally self-sustainable nor in its natural state
Will at all times employ humane hunting practices
Will not hunt female wild animals with dependent offspring
Will not allow a client to shoot at animals at a distance beyond the capability of their competence or that client’s equipment
Will respect local communities’ property and input…..”

I have only support for a “Code of Conduct” to be adhered to by all Hunting Outfitters. The PHASA “Code of Conduct” is a very good start. But it needs some elaboration and enforcement.

I leave it to the members of PHASA to comment on the correctness of my interpretation of the meaning of some of these terms.

Go look at the meaning of words honesty, integrity and morality yourself, and judge if your actions have been true to these words.

The “…. principle of sustainable utilization…..” may need some explanation. Does PHASA mean that any utilization of an area and the species contained therein should be such that it can be maintained indefinitely? Where such an area is fenced to restrict the movement in or out of the enclosed area it does require very good management of the resident populations. They should ensure that the breeding nucleus is not depleted to such an extent that the population declines to non-self sustaining levels? Good! It must most surely also mean that the managers must not harvest more trophies from an area than the area can produce? If any fenced area produces 5 trophies per year, it means that one may harvest 5 trophies from it each year? Sure, if an area really produces 5 good aged and representative “trophies” each year, then 5 may be harvested! Good, very good! It is after all sustainable and the trophies are produced on that area in their “natural state”. The population is in no way threatened and sustainability is ensured. What now is the situation where a PHASA member gets involved in harvesting the 6th, or 7th or higher number of trophies from that area? We have established that the given area is honestly capable of on a long term sustained basis produce 5 trophies per year, and that harvesting those 5 trophies is perfectly OK? But now a PHASA member harvests 15 trophies from that selfsame area! Surely that is not OK? Yet it is being done all the time by PHASA members! An area in “its natural state “ can produce 5 trophies per year and PHASA members harvest 15 trophies from the same area! Surely it cannot be regarded that the 10 trophies that were caught elsewhere and released into the area to be “taken” by the clients of these PHASA members cannot be regarded as “in its natural state”? I therefore hold that any PHASA member involved in any form of “Put & Take” shooting is NOT adhering to the CoC! So any PHASA member that is involve d in any form of “Put-‘n-Take” trophy hunting should be acted against by PHASA. But does PHASA take any stand on this? I don’t know, certainly have not seen PHASA take any action against any member involved in P&T shooting. Such actions are also regarded as dishonest, and immoral and reflects a total lack of integrity by the HO involved. It also applies to the PH involved if the PH knows about P&T at a concession, or does not bother to verify that P&T is not practiced on a hunting concession where his employer sends him to hunt with a client.

PHASA condemns canned lion shooting, and rightly so! A small area [note this can be a very substantial number of acres] cannot produce a single trophy lion per year on a sustainable way. Now a Hunting Outfitter, who is a proud member of PHASA, arranges with a member of the Canned Lion Supply Brigade to have a 8 year old lion with a very nice mane delivered very early on a certain morning at a specified point on that small area. A client is then brought to actually shoot the lion s his “trophy”! PHASA condemns that! The fact that the client was led to believe that the lion in question has been free-ranging in that area for two years, or even that the lion was bred, born and grew old on that area seems to be irrelevant to PHASA. That seems to be not considered as dishonest?

I have posted the fact that I do not hold anything against a guy who wants to shoot a lion that was captive bred and released into a large area where the lion has some hope of evading the hunter for at least some time. If the hunter was, in accordance to the PHASA CoC, fully informed and not misled about what is offered, it is really up to the hunter to decide if he wants to. I would not, but that is “my” ethics, and I do not condemn any hunter who decides that he may actually want to shoot such a lion. It is, as 2th docter stated, his ethics, and I will not criticize or condemn him or anyone else for it at all. But I do condemn and criticize the non-members and PHASA members who falsely leads the hunter to believe that he is somehow hunting a wild or free ranging lion! And I do condemn PHASA for not being very much more proactive in rooting out such dishonesty and misrepresenting of facts about lion hunting to clients.

Then what about the Put and Take kudu hunting? What about all Put and Take hunting? Where is PHASA in taking the lead in condemning and destroying this unsporting, unethical and dishonest practices which is IMHO against their own CoC from our hunting industry? Many who read this will know first hand which Hunting Outfitters that post on this forum are regular participants in Put & Take hunting, be it for lion or kudu. Look at their websites: Almost invariably members of PHASA. For me, no thanks for free membership of PHASA!

As soon as I see some very active efforts by PHASA to eliminate the dishonesty associated with all put and take hunting, be it lion or kudu, I may very well join the organization again. Until then, I will only join if I’m forced to: Fortunately the Nature Conservation authorities of the Free State hold the [IMHO correct] view that any government department cannot require membership of a voluntary organization like PHASA as a pre-requisite for issuing a PH license. So, I am a PH and not a member of PHASA as membership of a toothless and double-standards organization is a waste of my money.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Ouch, That is going to leave a mark...

Wow, I didn't know CATS could take all of the Big Five...jorge

Andrew:

For reasons similar to yours, although I have made a passable living strictly as an outdoor writer/editor/publisher for more than a half century, I did not renew my membership in the Outdoor Writers Association of America after attending my first OWAA convention many years ago.

Professional associations are fine for some people, but like you I found that I did not need the organization and it could get along just fine without me.

I also was shocked to find out how few of its members actually were full time pros. Too many of them were shoe and insurance salesmen, not writers/editors/publishers.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Wow, I didn't know CATS could take all of the Big Five...jorge

Jorge as I am the only person whom mentioned the Big five in this thread I must assume it is me you are refering to in this quote as well as a few prior replies. Won't you let me in on what must be an insider joke? D.F.

Nah. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Nah. jorge

As you wish. I am sure you have your reasons for doing so. I imagine I'll pick up on it soon enough by myself.