It is not against canned lion shooting that i bear a grudge. It is mostly about the dishonest and deceitful manner in which some Hunting Outfitters make their clients think that they are hunting a wild lion that I get really upset.

If the hunting outfitters who offer canned lion will take note of this honest approach, I would then say: It's not my cup of tea, each man to his own!

Check this for openness and honesty [?] in offering canned stuff!
http://bluewaterfishingranch.com/

Should have seen this yesterday!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

......it weren't canned.....it didn't make us look like asses......it was sporting.......it weren't against the very thing hunters should stand for free chase!

If You go there now you will see it is an april fools joke.

Now this is a topic that really interests me. Aside from the flood of ideas that little April Fools joke spurred in us here, Andrew makes a good point about “canned” hunting. As a magazine, we believe we need to remain impartial to a certain degree. We stand by a philosophy of free expression, and believe we offer a medium to create debate and ultimately (sometimes) solutions by getting to a wider audience. We are aware of the various ethical codes of sporting organisations, but abstain from being judge and jury. There are simply some things we will not publish, but are careful not to condemn those we do not fully understand or simply based on emotions.

Tradition and culture often cross accepted ethical lines. “One man’s meat is another man’s poison” so to speak.

Some years ago, hunting leopard with hounds was really frowned upon in Zimbabwe, while accepted elsewhere. We published an unbiased article which resulted in a flurry of comments - for and against - and ultimately several seminars and demonstrations of dogs at work, held to help educate and inform. I, with Don Heath, attended a couple of these, and it was amazing to watch perceptions change... and quickly. It soon became apparent to me, that the issue was not so much about using dogs, but rather about sustainability. The land-owners present (this was before the days when the government here went on its land rampage) quickly turned their focus to quotas and leopard ranges. Were those ranchers with common boundaries counting the same leopards and coming up with skewed population figures and effectively over-hunting? I could explain more, but I think this makes sense. The issue was not the dogs, but a broader concern for populations because hunting with hounds was toted as being 100% successful.

We followed the story a bit more with the magazine allowing debate from all sides and perceptions did change. There will always be those who frown on the method (as others do with regard to hunting over baits or legally at night), but providing the opportunity to discuss it openly and honestly was a responsibility we undertook.

I believe the word “canned” has become too broadly applied to other forms of hunting. Canned was coined for one of the original documentaries (we have all seen and been beaten with by the greenies) which was so obviously a drugged lion in a pen to be shot from a vehicle. That is extreme!

As a magazine, and accepting our responsibility to create an environment for open discussion, we have had several meetings on this topic to form a guideline we can follow. I believe Andrew’s comment about honesty is very relevant. If you know you are hunting in a fenced area, and facing an animal that has been bred in captivity though ranged free (in the enclosure) for the best part of its life, and if other ethical guidelines are observed - not shooting from a vehicle, using a suitable weapon etc - then is it wrong? Is it unethical? What is it?

It is a topic I plan to throw open in the magazine soon, as it is one I feel needs more discussion than simple hardline views from both ends of the spectrum. Behind all of this is an undeniable thread that unless wildlife has a value, it will not survive. I feel the world’s lion population (which many consider to be under threat anyway) was brought to the brink by the proposed laws to restrict the use of bred lions in South Africa. I do not know what the figures are exactly, but have heard said that South Africa accounts for about a third of the world’s lion populations. Expecting ranchers to feed lion at great expense - even if this means allowing them to simply hunt and eat your plains game at will - and then not being able to reap the financial benefit or utilise that animal is a sure way to make it worthless. If not for this sort of trophy shooting (so as not to confuse it with actual trophy hunting as we tend to perceive it) the world’s lion population would surely be under threat. And that threat could come from catastrophe or disease to the wild populations, where a viable nucleus will be their only saving grace. Have we a right to destroy that value and nucleus in South Africa (or elsewhere) just because it is not our cup of tea? A ban on hunting wild populations of lion is likely to see a decline in lion. No villager - or even rancher for that matter - is going to put up with lion if they are a pest and worth nothing.

If we condemn “controlled hunting” (as apposed to “canned” hunting as portrayed by the Cooke Report), then do we need to look closely at game capture and translocation and the effects of “put and take” hunting? Will we then need to re-examine those ranches which operate with “exotic” species around the world, such as YO in Texas (I think it’s called that?).

Where does it end? We as hunters and conservationists have long learned that applying emotions to wildlife such as those applied by the greenies, will end in destruction and disaster.

Just our views as a impartial medium. Stripping away the “soap-boxing”... what is the real views of us as hunters and conservationists? Or am I opening a “can” of worms?

I just love that bluewater fishing ranch deal. I hadn't thought of it in a while. I want to sign up for the "Old man and the Sea option".

It sure beats the hell out of the thousands of hours that I have spent riding around in the ocean looking backwards; waiting for the Man in the Blue Suit to show up...

Yes, that whole concept really does appeal. Our lake Kariba here has floating breeding bonds or cages for bream, bred, slaughtered and then exported mostly to Europe. Ocasionally I get permission to camp close to the floating nets and drop a bait for the marauding tigerfish that pick off feral bream feeding closeby. I gotta tell you, it is non-stop heart-attack material! Ocasionally, we hook into an escapee bream in excess of 12 pounds. It is just awesome!

Andrew Fenwick - our sub-editor - and myself have been day dreaming about hiring one of their breeding cages, filling it with tigerfish and growing them to enormous size. Then charge people to fish that cage. All over the world one can fish stocked waters and ponds. We have them here. Imagine being able to do that in a wild water environment in sight of elephant and buffalo... but assured of a monster tigerfish?

Watch this space...

Well, I would suppose that it would depend entirely on the size of the can, wouldn't it?

What bothers me about a canned hunt is that the hunter has stacked the odds so significantly in his favor that the animal doesn't stand a chance.

I say, let's give the animal a chance.

If you want to do a canned hunt, 1000 sq foot pen, using only primitive weapons (Knife, Speer, Axe. No Bows or other projectile weapons) then I'm all for it.

Heck, I'll gladly Pay Per View a "Rhino vs. Johnie and his Axe" or even a "Buck vs. Knife" event.

You don't mind if I bet on the Rhino, do you?

http://www.bloodydecks.com/for...tuna-seiner-pen.html


CHECK THIS THREAD OUT ABOUT FISHING IN A TUNA PEN FOR REAL..........

Personally, I think the bigger problem with how canned hunts are performed is not its satisfaction level as a hunting experience.

The real problem is, it leaves us with a very serious political liability that the Left and the Left Controlled Media can use to further drive a wedge between us and the non-hunting public, many of whom it's no secret only tolerate us in the first place. In other words, how canned hunts are done matters.

Taken to its logical conclusions, where does it ultimately leave those of us who will never hunt African game, but do hunt tame quail, bred for that purpose, on commercial shooting preserves?

The fact is, the "can of worms" is already fully open. Those directly involved however can help by trying to use their heads at all times on how they have it set up.

quote:

Originally posted by Patricio Gaudiano:
http://www.bloodydecks.com/for...tuna-seiner-pen.html


CHECK THIS THREAD OUT ABOUT FISHING IN A TUNA PEN FOR REAL..........

Thanks for posting that. I read this in the past. A pretty cool story that ended well.

Jeff

Wow, 12lb bream, sounds like those guys are on steroids...literally! Are those Nile bream I presume? I agree too that the question of being honest is a good one. I am sure that many people are conned into believing they are shooting a wild lions in SA, but are probably don't even realise it. It would be interesting to look into that much more closely. I think it also depends a lot on the hunter and what he is after. Any real hunter who knows his quarry will know when he is stepping into a canned hunt or not, but some people are only interested in trophies and do not care of how their trophy came to be. If the size of the trophy is your only goal I can imagine some people would do probably almost anything to obtain it with ethics going out of the window. There is a market for canned lion hunting that much is true, otherwise it would not be a problem. It would be very interesting to know what percentage of those people who hunt them are either unaware or are aware but are not bothered about ethics and only the trophy or the price of the product.

quote:

It would be very interesting to know what percentage of those people who hunt them are either unaware or are aware but are not bothered about ethics and only the trophy or the price of the product.

Very good point.............

Andrew- When reading your heading I had the impression you were starting a "Top Ten " list. So-

Canned lion shooting would be OK if:
!) The shampoo companies were given credit for their product performance.
2) The pet food companies were allowed to advertise in the new, post 4/1, AR format.

3).......Please fellow members, help us here finish it up!

3) If SCI started a new entry category: CANNED LION and annually awards the PH of the year in the CANNED LION category.
4) .............

i recall quite well a hunting report here 1-2 years ago by a booking agent about a lion hunt he took( with an outfitter who also posts here) in RSA, showing an MGM lion taken in the Kalahari area of the Northwest Province. when asked straight up if the hunt was in a fenced area, the answer was very vague. i was also a little surprised at the large number of effusive compliments posted about the trophy. several such posters had previously posted negative comments about canned lion hunts. personally i don't care one way or the other as long as it is legal- it just isn't my idea of real lion hunting but to each his own. as an aside, i will never be able to afford a REAL lion hunt but such is life.

jdollar,

I'm sure I remember which hunt & lion you refer to. A good trophy is a good trophy, no matter how it was hunted or shot or caught in a gin trap or poisoned!

To Nzou's last sentence as quoted by Blair I would want to change it a bit:

quote:

It would be very interesting to know what percentage of those people who hunt them are either unaware or are aware but do not dare to admit it, even to themselves, that they know for sure, or are in reasonable doubt, about the essential canned nature of the trophy, orare not bothered about ethics and only the trophy or the price of the product.

I repeat my view that I do not have it against the hunter that was caught into the trap, but against the Hunting Outfitter [and co-operating PH] that so cleverly set the trap!

Let's rather complete cranes "Top Ten list"

4) ...................?

I am almost certain, that 99% of those who actually go on canned lions hunts know PRECISELY what they are getting into.

They just like to turn a blind eye to it.

It doesn't matter how honest the operator is - canned hunting is NOT hunting.

Hunting should NEVER involve a guarrantee of a trophy. The goal of hunting is to get into the wilds and pit your skills against nature and to enjoy the wilds and the wild beasts - and sometimes you will win and many times you will lose.

As Jose Ortega Gassett put it: "one kills in order to have hunted, one does not hunt in order to kill" and this quote sums it all up as far as I am concerned.

ant, thanks for trying to start a unbiased discussion, but you see how quickly it deteriorates to name calling.

Big can you opened.

Ant i look forward to reading your upcoming magazines that address the issue. I recently ran a poll to try and get an idea about how the AR community feel about the subject and the results were pretty interesting. Going forward RSA will always be a big player in Lion conservation and Lions will continue to be shot behind fences. What is important is that there is an agreed upon definition of what is a canned hunt in the true sense of the word.

Is it any Lion behind a fence regardless of self sustainability/healthy breeding population?

Is it captive bred and released to be shot when old enough?

There are many more options and healthy debate will be good

From my point of view it's ethical to hunt self-sustaining lionpoplation behind a fence. That's not wilderness but it's ok. But for a heahlty population you will need a lt of space.

Put a lion in a fenced area and just to hunt him is a damned shame for everyone. That's just sick nothing more.

We hunt not slaugther.



caracal

If you could get Saeed and Steve's blessing on "canned" lion hunting all would be good with the world and God would be in his house.

I was on the "fence" as to go on a canned lion hunt or not in the near future...I've decided to do it as I see no difference in hunting a lion under the same conditions that so many on this very forum have hunted countless plains game trophies,cape buffalo,etc. .
I guess it is safe to assume Die Ou Jater doesn't wish to join me. :>

CATS on CATS-interesting metaphor. jorge

Got an e-mail a while back. Showed a picture of an absolutely beautiful lion, at very close range. They said I could "hunt" him. Closer inspection of the picture showed the shadows of the racks from the lorrie. He was sitting there staring out at them, probably wondering if they would throw him another piece of meat and they were auctioning him. I deleted it in disgust, but now I wish I had saved it.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
I was on the "fence" as to go on a canned lion hunt or not in the near future...I've decided to do it as I see no difference in hunting a lion under the same conditions that so many on this very forum have hunted countless plains game trophies,cape buffalo,etc. .
I guess it is safe to assume Die Ou Jater doesn't wish to join me. :>

if you don't see the difference between plains game behind a fence and a lion behind a fence, then you absolutely should go for it and please post pictures of your trophy.

There is no difference neither is endangered they were both born to be hunted inside wire. Neither the captive bred lion nor the captive bred sable was darted from the wild an held in a pen until the hunter arrived to kill it.
I'm not trying to convince myself it is anything other than it is. If others on this board have done it then tried to pass it off as a wild lion that is their sin not mine.

2th doc, when are we going?

When am I going..... sometime later the spring or early summer, it hinges on when the outfitter I use in Namibia has a cancellation or a few days between clients. He is a friend of mine an has me over for a visit with a bit of kudu, oryx hunting. I will call the lion company in RSA when I know the dates for certain to take him up on his offer...as a matter of fact there are two different lion offers on my desk both at 50% off from two different breeders...Beyers' leo pictures from his emailed zip file show bigger males....just like shopping from the Cabelas' web site...nice full maned MGM with black nose sold last year for $28K on clearance now at 50% off!

good luck, although i guess luck has nothing to do with success rates

Canned lions should have purple highlights in their manes, with maybe some beads woven in...

Question- is canned lion preserved in spring water or olive oil? it makes a big difference in the flavor of canned tuna but i'm not sure about canned lion.

2th Doc,

I hope only that you are not serious and are merely winding the folks up on this thread. Otherwise how would you rate your other ethics?

Bwana: You haven't been here long but you are VERY perceptive. CATS and TROLLS have many lives. jorge

There are people who believe it's ok to shoot a captive bred animal in a fenced area.I am not one of those.I am not a collector of species either.At this point in my hunting life,I don't feel like shooting ANY trophy that just popped up,even if it would make the record books.I want to get out and walk and stalk,for days on a slim hope that I will get a chance to put the game I am after,in my iron sights and if possible shoot offhand with the cartridges I loaded myself.I would rather come back empty,having spend a hard earned fortune on a hunt,than shoot a world record trophy in a freaky,chance like manner.IMO,a HUNT should be exactly that,all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I am almost certain, that 99% of those who actually go on canned lions hunts know PRECISELY what they are getting into.

They just like to turn a blind eye to it.

I have to agree with this.

I spoke with a fellow while waiting in the Jo'burg airport who proudly announced his completion of the Big Five. The only problem was that all but the elephant were taken in SA, making three of them canned hunts. (Two avoidable, buff and lion - one not, since EVERY rhino is canned.)

He boasted that now he was qualified for the fourth inner special African circle jerk in the SCI, or some such BS. When mentioned that I thought all lions taken in SA were disqualified from SCI consideration, he told me that this special place where he hunted - don't recall the name - was exempted because "only they have a special program to enhance breeding and ensure that the lions are truly wild and living in the wild the same as they would anywhere else..."

A "yea but..." answer. He knew they were canned, he wasn't admitting it to me, but he knew they were canned. And he did it because, as he told me, the time commitment required for Tanzania or Zambia was beyond him. Really, he did it so he could keep up with his SCI wig SCI pals and join that super special fourth cirle jerk. And he was a relative big wig in SCI...

Special rules for special folks.

A collector, not a hunter. I found it hard to want to be civl after that bull and left the conversation to remain polite.

BTW, I wouldn't care about a canned hunt if a fellow told me - "Hey, I couldn't afford a wild lion", or "I don't get enough time off work for a wild lion" or whatever, so long as it was without the dishonest snow job. And this fellow with his buff and lion both in SA, and his third level special circle jerk qualifications, well...

JPK

JPK

Well I am quite sure the WORLD IS COMING TO AN END!

I agree with you 110%.

4th Inner Special African Circle Jerk SCI! Excellent! BS--Excellent!

Here Here! Well said!

A collector and keep up with the big Wig SCI is all that is--My D*&k is bigger than yours syndrome.

This is the same type fellow that carries a tape measure in his pocket and as soon as he can get to the animal he is measuring, and he also knows all the measurements in the book so he can compare. Pure Bunk-BS.

I also agree with you about the canned hunt deal, just don't make it anything else other than what it is. I really don't care. I was once on a farm in the far north SA where they had some lions in a fence. Most of these lions were very nice lions, very well behaved and stood still for some nice photos! However, there was this one bastard lion, big, extremely aggressive, charged for no reason, just because he wanted to. They had him in about a 50 acre enclosure, and he was very pissed about it. If one would go in his area then the dance was on-one way or the other either you get him or he gets you! But what would anyone want to do that for, I don't know.

I see there is another thread about rhino too. I have been tempted to post that one, but will address it here for my part. Of course rhino is canned, we all know that, and it is pretty much a matter of "Getting the Big 5" for anyone that wants it. At an extreme cost these days, not worth it to me at all. As far as I am concerned on a personal level I have my big five! I always figured to take an opportunity at some point when on a farm with rhino, to have my photo taken, with rifle, pretending to get ready to shoot a rhino! Last july I had taken my boys on their first african hunt in SA. They had a ball, but this place had rhino--so I got an opportunity to do this. I had two guys with cameras, different angles, two rhinos, and made damn sure that my rifle was NOT LOADED-no chances here--I got some good photos out of it, in a couple looks like these two rhino are getting ready to charge, and there I am, rifle up, aimed and ready! It's a hoot and good fun! But that is as far as it goes! Shooting them would be no different than shooting cows in the field. Now being a murderous bastard that I am, I have no problem shooting cows! It's the cost of the cows that make the difference!!! Heh Heh!

JPK-might be the only time we ever agree!

Michael

Michael,

I once lucked into a black rhino in Zim. I was zoning out during a truck ride after an unsuccessful but never the less great day chasing elephants in the Save Conservancy when I saw him about 100yds away. I asked the PH if we could get out and approach for photos, etc. He said sure, but NO GUNS so we wouldn't be tempted even if he came. We all picked out our tree to climb as we approached, just in case, and stopped at maybe 40yds. He knew we were there and no matter which way we went he just turned to face us. The PH said no closer or would come, so we watched from there. After photos, I raised my arms like aiming a rifle and said, "bang!" That was enough rhino hunting for me.

Maybe some day I'll dart one if I feel the need, but I'd never shoot one.

JPK

JPK

Too bad about the NO GUN photos! Mine turned out pretty cool, and satisfies my need for rhino completely. Of course I triple made sure that mine was unloaded! According to my guys in SA some chinese have driven the price into $60'000 + and all they want is a horn! I find that a little disturbing to be honest. I had an opportunity in 2007 to shoot one for $10'000, but I could keep nothing-not even the cape. Maybe if I could have kept the cape I might have considered, but not for a photo, and not for the sake of the "BIG 5". I came out way ahead, I went to Zim and shot 2 elephants and 5 buffalo instead and had a hell of a lot more shooting fun!!!!!!

Michael