I would like to take my muzzleloader this year and will need powder or substitute. Researched the forum, contacted Hogdon and talked with a few guys who did take powder over. Talked with TSA.

The questions;

Any locations in South Africa that sell Hogdon or other american powders? (I know swiss is available)
Can anyone provide an offical document or opinion that loading shotshells with powder and transporting them is legal for passenger aircraft?
Anyone in South Africa have any Hogdon they want to part with?

I'm not hiding it in my suitcase, putting it in toothpaste tubes, or any other wink wink nod nod method.

John

Transporting black powder/Prodex in shot shells is illegal and will get you arrested.
Stuffing it into shot shells is a wink wink nod nod method.

The only propellant for sale in SA is the locally-made Somchem stuff. Imported propellant of any kind, especially American-made ones, are more valuable over here than rhino horn or gold sovereigns. Provided you can find any, that is.

Black powder is a scarce commodity at present as well, I hear. Not a black powder man myself but I can make enquiries.

PM me your contact details and I will see what I can do.

Three (3) years ago I used a muzzleloader in South Africa.

THE FOLLOWING IS COSTLY BUT I WAS TOLD TOTALLY LEGAL.

I had Hunters Support Air 2000 purchase my powder and secure all necessary paperwork (transport, etc). I DID NOT RETURN WITH ANY POWDER.

I used their Meet & Greet service; it went without a hitch.

Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know
Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know

Black powder is a Class 1.10, Packing Group II, number UN0027 “Explosive”. Air travel with black powder in your checked luggage is prohibited. Carriage on a plane is not one single offense. Rather, it constitutes multiple offenses and subjects the sportsman to multiple separate civil penalties (15 to be exact) that can each be substantial. The following is a partial quote from a Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty received by a hunter when his luggage was found to contain one container of Jim Shockey’s Gold Premium Grade Black Powder Replacement:

By reason of the above, you violated the following Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations (Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations):

1. Section 171.2(a) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation in commerce when the hazardous material was not properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter.

2. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the proper shipping name prescribed for the material in Column 2 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

3. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the hazard class or division prescribed for the material as shown in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

4. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(3) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the identification number prescribed for the material as shown in Column 4 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

5. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(4) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the packing grouping, in Roman numerals, prescribed for the material in Column 5 of the § 172.101 Table, if any, of the material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

6. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(5) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the total quantity (by net or gross mass, capacity, or as otherwise appropriate), including the unit of measurement, of the hazardous material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

7. Sections 172.204(a) or (c)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to certify that the material was offered for transportation in accordance with this subchapter by printing on the shipping paper containing the required shipping description one of the certifications set forth in this part.

8. Section 172.204(c)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material to an aircraft operator for transportation by air and failed to provide two copies of the certification required in this section.

9. Section 172.204(c)(3) in that you offered for transportation by air a hazardous material authorized for air transportation and failed to add the certification required in this section the following statement:

“I declare that all of the applicable air transport requirements have been met.”

10. Section 172.301(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in a non-bulk packaging and failed to mark the package with the proper shipping name and identification number (preceded by “UN” or “NA”, as appropriate) for the material as shown in the § 172.101 Table.

11. Section 172.400(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in one of the packages or containment devices listed in this subpart and failed to label the package or containment device with the labels specified for the material in the § 172.101 Table and in this subpart.

12. Section 172.600(c) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material and failed to make the emergency response information immediately available for use at all times the hazardous material was present, and failed to make such information, including an emergency response telephone number, immediately available to any government agency responding to an incident involving hazardous material or conducting an investigation which involves a hazardous material.

13. Section 172.21(a) in that you offered for transportation materials designated “Forbidden” in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table.

14. Section 173.21(b) in that you offered for transportation forbidden explosives as defined in § 173.54 of this part.

15. Section 173.54(a) in that you offered for transportation an explosive that had not been approved in accordance with § 173.56 of this subpart.

In accordance with Section 5123(a) of Chapter 51, Title 49 of the United States Code of Transportation, 49 U.S.C§ 5123, [name of violator] is liable for a civil penalty of not less than $250, nor greater than $50,000 ($100,000 if death, serious illness, severe injury, or substantial property damage results), for each violation of the regulations.
John J. Jackson, III
Conservation Force - A Force For Wildlife Conservation, Wild Places And Our Way Of Life
cf@conservationforce.org
www.conservationforce.org
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/porta...RCRD&vgnextfmt=print

PHMSA Interpretation #01-0216
Oct 15, 2001
PHMSA Response Letter
________________________________________
October 15, 2001

Mr. Larry J. Talley Reference No. 01-0216
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Dear Mr. Talley:
This responds to your letter dated August 7, 2001, regarding the transportation of black powder under the U.S. Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) and the International Civil Aviation Organization's Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (ICAO Technical Instructions). Specifically, you ask if there are any exceptions that would allow for the domestic or international transportation of black powder by aircraft.
The answer is no. The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions. Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations. .
I trust this satisfies your inquiry. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,

Edward T. Mazzullo
Director
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards
173.22

Those restrictions incidentally are the same worldwide rather than just the USA & also apply to all BP substitutes with explosive classifications as well as BP.

My advice would be to talk with Mr. Jim Shockey. Jim has hunted in many parts of Africa with a muzzleloader and I am sure he could give you "actual" advise for your planned adventure. Shoot an e-mail to his Web site and I'll bet you get an answer. Some here (you know who you are) are self proclaimed experts that most likely are not to be relied on. Good luck.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

Steve, Thank you. Knew you would have the answer. I am familiar with the reg's and still could not find that letter. While proving intent is difficult that letter makes it very clear. Hopefully I can find some powder in SA or the muzzleloader will stay home.

As for Shockey and the other TV personalities, everyone has ducked the question, said they did not know it was illegal, loaded in shot shells, got lucky or had their own supplier. Found statements from some that said they wrapped it in plastic and put it in their carry on luggage.

It seems no one in Africa has 777 or similar american pellets or powder because of the importation rules and excise taxes. Cant ship by Cargo aircraft as any air is illegal.

How can people submit a record to SCI when they illegally transported the powder to Africa that was used to take the animal? How can gun companies advertise their muzzleloaders when the powder was not legally transported? How credible are these "personalities" that broke the rules just to film a show?

John

John - That is exactly why I recommended contacting Shockey. He has been there, done it all. T/C might have a clue if you can get past the receptionist. Good luck.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
Steve, Thank you. Knew you would have the answer. I am familiar with the reg's and still could not find that letter. While proving intent is difficult that letter makes it very clear. Hopefully I can find some powder in SA or the muzzleloader will stay home.

As for Shockey and the other TV personalities, everyone has ducked the question, said they did not know it was illegal, loaded in shot shells, got lucky or had their own supplier. Found statements from some that said they wrapped it in plastic and put it in their carry on luggage.

It seems no one in Africa has 777 or similar american pellets or powder because of the importation rules and excise taxes. Cant ship by Cargo aircraft as any air is illegal.

How can people submit a record to SCI when they illegally transported the powder to Africa that was used to take the animal? How can gun companies advertise their muzzleloaders when the powder was not legally transported? How credible are these "personalities" that broke the rules just to film a show?

John

The best is to contact the outfitter that you will be hunting with. In RSA there are a bunch of regulations that must be adhered too, amongst them the route must be registered. I had the regulations somewhere, I will see if I can find them.

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
Steve, Thank you. Knew you would have the answer. I am familiar with the reg's and still could not find that letter. While proving intent is difficult that letter makes it very clear. Hopefully I can find some powder in SA or the muzzleloader will stay home.

As for Shockey and the other TV personalities, everyone has ducked the question, said they did not know it was illegal, loaded in shot shells, got lucky or had their own supplier. Found statements from some that said they wrapped it in plastic and put it in their carry on luggage.

It seems no one in Africa has 777 or similar american pellets or powder because of the importation rules and excise taxes. Cant ship by Cargo aircraft as any air is illegal.

How can people submit a record to SCI when they illegally transported the powder to Africa that was used to take the animal? How can gun companies advertise their muzzleloaders when the powder was not legally transported? How credible are these "personalities" that broke the rules just to film a show?

John

The thing to remember is the laws are not there to inconvenience hunters, they're there to keep passengers and others safe & that, let alone the penalties if caught are very good reason to abide by the laws so I reckon you're taking the right attitude.

As Jaco said, the best thing for you to do is to contact your outfitter who should be able to get the SA version for you without any major problems.

TN John

My crystal ball tells me that Blackhorn 209 now has or at least had a supplier in SA.

Send me a PM if you want me to try to find out who/where/how much etc and I'll do my best for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
My advice would be to talk with Mr. Jim Shockey. Jim has hunted in many parts of Africa with a muzzleloader and I am sure he could give you "actual" advise for your planned adventure. Shoot an e-mail to his Web site and I'll bet you get an answer. Some here (you know who you are) are self proclaimed experts that most likely are not to be relied on. Good luck.

He very active on Facebook so you might get a quicker answer via that route

I contacted Shockey and several others, even talked with several in person at SCI including some SCI record holders.

Jaco thank you.

Steve will send you a pm. I ship and recieve hazardous materials here in the states. People don't seem to understand as you stated the regulations are there for everyone's protection. It really unnerved me to find that some have taken this in their carry-ons and "just got lucky".

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
I contacted Shockey and several others, even talked with several in person at SCI including some SCI record holders.

Jaco thank you.

Steve will send you a pm. I ship and recieve hazardous materials here in the states. People don't seem to understand as you stated the regulations are there for everyone's protection. It really unnerved me to find that some have taken this in their carry-ons and "just got lucky".

IIRC, some years ago, one of the celeb hunter types came on here and gave it the big nudge, nudge, wink, wink routine that suggested there were ways to smuggle said materials onto commercial flights and then they disappeared PDQ when it was pointed out what they were doing and the possible consequences and I've got no patience or sympathy for those who do such things....... esp in this post 9/11 society in which we must now all live.

I'll answer the PM asap for you buddy.

I have bought, perfectly legally and above board swiss made Elephant brand ffG and fffG in South Africa

I know who has it in Zimbabwe

Pydrodex is a propellant not an explosive. It is not in the same class as genuine black powder

It all boils down to the UN classification.

Anything classified as Explosive may not legally travel on any commercial aircraft under any circumstances.

If it's classified as Flammable it may travel on commercial aircraft under some circumstances.

Assuming it's the same in the US as it is everywhere else, (and I'm sure it is) that classification will be marked on the tin as something like: UN Explosive 1.1 etc.

But bearing in mind the severity of the penalties if you get it wrong, it's well worth checking very carefully with the authorities concerned.

Also a good idea to remember this is addressed in several acts etc so you need to check them all because if one contradicts the other, the one that forbids will rule. FWIW, the International Act that covers countries worldwide is the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of dangerous goods act but it's far from the only one that addresses this issue.

Quite honestly, if you can buy it there why go to the trouble of taking it halfway across the world anyway.

On two occasions I have loaded my 8 bore cartridges in camp with black powder. I just had my PH purchase it in SA before hand. It can be done but takes some time to organise.

Thank you to everyone that has responded and has offered their assistance.
I am still looking for someone in SA that has powder and a couple AR regulars are looking into this for me. I’m doing this the right way or not at all.
What I have discovered is that not one person so far that has used American powders can tell me where they purchased them in Africa. When pressed for information they stop responding or say they have some there already. It seems that so far the means of transport to Africa has been wrapped in plastic in carry-ons or luggage, or in shot shells.
I don’t know why a TV Show or SCI record book status means so much that someone would commit a felony and endanger the lives of everyone on board a plane.

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
Thank you to everyone that has responded and has offered their assistance.
I am still looking for someone in SA that has powder and a couple AR regulars are looking into this for me. I’m doing this the right way or not at all.
What I have discovered is that not one person so far that has used American powders can tell me where they purchased them in Africa. When pressed for information they stop responding or say they have some there already. It seems that so far the means of transport to Africa has been wrapped in plastic in carry-ons or luggage, or in shot shells.
I don’t know why a TV Show or SCI record book status means so much that someone would commit a felony and endanger the lives of everyone on board a plane.

I agree completely. (IMO) Anyone who does such a thing is bloody insane and quite honestly deserves to face the full force of those penalties mentioned above.

If you can't get the material you need anywhere else, you might tro to contact Somchem direct and ask their advice..... they're a very helpful company.

Hi John,
I have gone down this road and here is what needs to happen.
The easiest is for your Outfitter that you will be hunting with to obtain the black powder on your behalf. He will need to apply for a temp license, if he does not already hold one, to legally be able to transport the black powder. Basically the same as the competency certificate that we South Africans need to go through in order to hold a firearm license. Only, this is for Black Powder.
He can do this through his local gunshop for the permanent license, or the police can send him to the explosives unit of his area that will assist him.
After he is in possession of the necessary paperwork, he can purchase the goods on your behalf.
Swiss powder is as scarce as hens teeth. The most popular powder available is called Wano. It certainly does not burn as clean as what you will be used to.
I will be more than happy to forward details to you of one of my hunters, who will give you an excellent idea of the loads he used here with me, and you will be able to compare them to the loads that he and you use back home.
If you need the info, please feel free to PM me, and I will be happy to pass it on to you.
All the best,

Marius Goosen

Looks like Anne at Hunters Support is able to help. She has been great to work with.

If I were a dedicated mz loader hunter, I would strongly consider purchasing one of the used savage mz loaders that can use smokeless powder.