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THE ONLY GOOD POACHER IS A DEAD POACHER
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Poacher shot dead in transfrontier park

By Masimba Karikoga
ONE poacher was shot dead, while another was injured last week in the Sinamatela area on Zimbabwe�s side of the Great Limpopo Transfrontier National Park by game rangers from the National Parks and Wildlife Management Authority.

The poacher, who was suspected to be a member of a three-man gang, is believed to have killed an elephant, whose carcass was found by rangers near the site of the shooting.

One of his alleged accomplices was inured during the shootout with Parks officials but managed to escape, presumably with the help of his other colleague.

Parks officials recovered two rifles.

A manhunt for the two surviving poachers has since been launched.

Director-general of the National Parks and Wildlife Management Authority Dr Morris Mtsambiwa said the dead poacher was still to be identified as he had no identify particulars on him.

"Indications are that the poacher is of Mozambican origin. Nevertheless, we still have to ascertain his true identity,�� he said last week.

The latest shooting brings to four the number of poachers killed so far this year. Last year, 12 poachers were killed in different parts of the country, said Dr Mtsambiwa.

The Parks director noted that there had been a decrease in poaching incidents for international trophies, particularly zebra skins and elephant tusks.

He attributed the decrease in poaching-related crimes to intensified patrols by the Parks authority.

Dr Mtsambiwa said the Parks authority arrested an average of 250 poachers every month. The majority of those, however, were involved in subsistence poaching of species, such as fish and small game, usually for biltong.

Dr Mtsambiwa said the authority had embarked on a recruitment drive for more rangers in order to keep the situation under control.

He said the authority intended to increase its anti-poaching unit to 1 400. So far 1 040 rangers had been recruited while the search for the remainder had been intensified.

"It is really cumbersome to deal with small-time poachers, particularly those who are involved in illegal fishing.

"Usually, when apprehended the poachers are asked to pay a fine for contravening the National Parks and Wildlife Management Act.

"However, once they have paid their fines, they immediately resort to their illegal trade,�� he said.

Dr Mtsambiwa said the authority, nearing the end of a restructuring exercise, had already started deploying senior wardens in poaching hotspots in its effort to keep on top of the situation.

"We never know when the next poacher is going to launch an attack. As the Parks authority, it is imperative that we remain vigilant and ready to deal with any poachers, anytime,�� he said.

Dr Mtsambiwa said the authority would soon acquire a helicopter for aerial surveys, anti-poaching and for bird control.

The authority recently took delivery of 120 Land-Rovers to boost its anti-poaching operations.

The acquisition came at a time when 139 elephants and about 20 endangered black rhino were lost to poachers along the Zambezi Valley escarpment.

The authority has also launched a massive investigation on private game properties in West Nicholson amid allegations that some were engaged in illegal hunting activities involving South African nationals.

Of the more than 139 elephants killed by poachers since last year, at least 50 were slaughtered between January and July.
 
Posts: 9533 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Unfortunatly hunting down and killing poachers is not the answer to the problem, its just a political answer to governmental decadense...

Were I a black bush African, I would probably poach if my family was hungry and I was left to fend for myself, that came with the rule of a dictator...That dictator is the one who should be shot, not some poor ass bush native....

The causation of elephant poaching goes way beyond the focus of a few natives, it is the gold mine of the politicians...

The natives create and survive off the bush meat market in todays Zimbabwe, as they did in Angola, Mozambique, and wherever bad men did bad deeds in Government, what more can we expect...

A fine gentleman and awesome tracker recently told me that under the rule of the white man, he lived in a stone house and had water, and was given money each month to feed his family, but under the rule of Mugabe he now lived in a stick house with dirt for a floor and no water at all, and no one was giving him money and his children were hungry, he supposed he would return to the old ways and kill the animals, but only if he lost his job with the bwana whom he had worked for for 25 years...That Bwana was a game warden and the tracker was the best of Elephant poachers when they were young, and when he was caught he was given the choice of being the Bwanas tracker or go to jail, that was 25 years ago, and last year he lost his job and went back into the bush...He was reputed to have killed 25 elephants with a bow in his criminal youth..now he owns a gun..A sad commentary to a wonderfull story...

Before we sit in judgement of these indigenous people we must understand their circumstances no matter how it disturbs our causes... so lets work on getting our Governments to interfere with the present ruler..I have seen our governments subsidize the poaching patrols consisting of nothing more than criminals, who poach on the side for ivory, not meat...Sometimes it seems like nothing is what it appears to be on the surface......

Just some thoughts on the subject....
 
Posts: 42226 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Ray



Generally speaking how true ... shooting poachers by the authorities does not concern me, many outfitters who's life blood has been spent to build an operation would like to take them out as well BUT are NOT ALLOWED to in this new age of politics PC criminal be treted fair softly softly approach, you need to be aware that poachers can shoot us as well in our defence of our castle ..



We continually have ongoing poaching on the ranches in SA and Zambia, just a hard fact of life .... we manage the situation as best under the circumstances, we are allowed to shoot the poachers dogs in SA which we often do, in Zambia we try to get the ZAWA game scouts or the Police to do the shooting or the arrests, we CANT take the law into our own hands unfortunately and it is very very seldom that we can catch the poachers, they use snares and some home made rifles and occasionally shotguns as well ... Thankfully non yet with AK's on the ranch that we know of !!! Peter
 
Posts: 3331 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Mr. Atkinson,
I respectfully have to disagree with you. The poacher knows going in what the consequences of his actions will be if he is caught. He will be killed.He makes the choice of his own free will to partake of this criminal action.

The excuse of feeding one's family is so overused even here in Chicago. I sold drugs, I robbed the 7-11, I stole the car, because my family was hungry I needed the money.

Even the bush people must be held accountable for their actions as much as everyone else.

IMO poaching is a serious crime and the use of deadly force is fully justified.
 
Posts: 9533 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Mr. Atkinson,
I respectfully have to disagree with you. The poacher knows going in what the consequences of his actions will be if he is caught. He will be killed.He makes the choice of his own free will to partake of this criminal action.

The excuse of feeding one's family is so overused even here in Chicago. I sold drugs, I robbed the 7-11, I stole the car, because my family was hungry I needed the money.

Even the bush people must be held accountable for their actions as much as everyone else.

IMO poaching is a serious crime and the use of deadly force is fully justified.




How would you feed your family if you were in that situation?

I'd imagine that there are a lot more resources even in the ghettoes of Chicago than there are in the bush in a country ruled by a blood sucking dictator...
 
Posts: 1282 | Location: here | Registered: 26 January 2002Reply With Quote
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Ray, I think both Mugabe AND the poacher are problems that have to be dealt with.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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The Cool Guy,
As the article stated indications are the dead person is Mozambican. If I wanted to feed my family I wouldn't leave Mozambique to travel to Zim to get meat. These men are criminals and should have been shot. When I was in ZIM in 2000 I had a long talk with the Zim police who came to our camp. They said their biggest problems with poachers were Zambians and Mozambicans. If poaching is not a capital offense it will only get worse. Fear of being killed is at least some deterrant.
 
Posts: 9533 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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IMO poaching is a serious crime and the use of deadly force is fully justified.




Kathi does this go for all poaching or just in africa?
anyway I think perhaps it is too much of a broad sweeping statement.

Regards Roebuck
 
Posts: 165 | Location: Scottish Highlands | Registered: 28 March 2004Reply With Quote
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Kathi,

I meant small time poachers who fish and trap small game locally for food.
 
Posts: 1282 | Location: here | Registered: 26 January 2002Reply With Quote
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Kathi, it seems a bit stringent to demand the death of the poacher if his crime is killing an animal. One of the guides used in many cultures is that the punishment should match the crime, and would it be true that the life of the poacher is equal to that of the animal?

While giving the stamp of approval to poaching is not me agenda, surely what one man pays money to do legally, another being put to death for the same thing because of a manmade boundry or restriction just doesn't seem balanced.

But then, I do not live in Africa, and I am sure there are many perspectives on this issue.
 
Posts: 1944 | Location: Moses Lake, WA | Registered: 06 November 2001Reply With Quote
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Sir,
If the poacher is in possession of a firearm and refuses to submit to arrest by authorities, then yes. Law enforcement officers whether here in the U.S., Africa, or anywhere in the world should not have to back down from armed poachers such as these outlaws in the article.
What were these Zim game rangers supposed to do? Run away because the poachers had guns? They did what they were supposed to do, enforce game laws.
 
Posts: 9533 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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In Botswana, the Botswana Defense Force's (BDF) primary occupation is anti-poaching patrol. Indigenous sustenance-poaching is not too much of a problem and offenders are generally arrested when caught and then fined or jailed. Organized ivory and game-product poachers, usually Zambians and Somalis, are shot on sight and aren't even given the opportunity to surrender. They may be chased down and shot from helicopters or tracked down on foot and killed. No mercy whatsoever for these criminal poachers.

All of this told to me by very reliable sources.

It only takes an unfamiliar tire-track on a concession to get the BDF in hot pursuit. It's hard for me to conceive of someone coming all the way from Somolia to poach in Botswana (especially if they know the consequences).
 
Posts: 5052 | Location: Muletown | Registered: 07 September 2001Reply With Quote
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To those uninitiated in the way of life in Africa this might open your eyes a bit .... life is cheap in Africa so dont lose any sleep over a few poachers being taken out ... there is no mercy shown in many of the African countries, DONT try to equate your way of life and rules with Africa, you can always have a valid and heartfelt opinion BUT you are living in a dream world if you believe it should be stopped ...



This article below is dated but it will enlighten you somewhat, even some Americans want to take the poachers out ...



Please dont try this at HOME, this is for those with a genuine interest to try and save wildlife



Regards, Peter

==============================



In an effort to save the last large piece of pristine savanna in Africa, a band of Wyoming conservationists have received permission from the president of the Central African Republic (CAR) to raise an anti-poaching militia to patrol the eastern fourth of the Texas-size country. Led by Bruce Hayse, a family practitioner from Jackson, the group intends to drive out marauding gangs of Sudanese poachers who are rapidly decimating the region's wildlife and terrorizing villagers. The conservationists have been given shoot-on-sight authority.

A onetime "wildlife paradise" four times the size of the Serengeti, the eastern CAR is what ecologists call an ecotone�a zone where two major natural habitats (in this case forest and savanna) meet, resulting in exceptional biodiversity.





An Africa Rainforest and River Conservation (ARRC) militia member scouts for poachers in the Central African Republic. The group plans to recruit and train an anti-poaching force of 400 local men, to patrol wilderness areas and to protect wildlife. They will have authority to shoot bush-meat poachers.



"This is one of the wildest areas left in Africa," said Richard Carroll, the World Wildlife Fund's director of West and Central Africa programs.



The CAR itself is a failing, nearly forgotten country still scarred by the ravages of Sudanese slave traders, cannibal dictators, and the French colonial era. Occupied by recurring political unrest around the capital, Bangui, the government has been unable to control its eastern border with Sudan.



Each year, columns of up to 200 well-armed Sudanese poachers cross the border along old slave-raiding routes, in pursuit of game animals long since hunted out in Sudan. After dividing into smaller groups, the poachers set fires to flush out animals, then shoot them and smoke the meat. Populations of elephants, giraffes, crocodiles, and lions have been reduced by more than 95 percent in the area, which was once known as the Serengeti of Central Africa.



The situation is a component in Africa's growing bush-meat crisis. Bush meat is a billion-dollar industry that has surpassed deforestation as the most immediate threat to endangered African wildlife. In the Congo Basin alone, more than a million metric tons of bush meat (an amount equal to four million cattle) are harvested from the shrinking forests every year, more than six times the maximum sustainable rate, according to the Wildlife Conservation Society's Elizabeth Bennett.



Beyond the threat to wildlife, the bush-meat crisis has the potential to be a human tragedy of immense proportions, since rural Africans get as much as 60 percent of their protein from wild animals. Once overhunting leads to empty forests, the people will have few nutritional alternatives.



Poachers had already emptied the forests of much of the wildlife around the village of Rafai when Bruce Hayse rafted in, after an unprecedented descent down the Chinko River in 1999. After hearing villagers' tales of being robbed, raped, murdered, and abducted at the hands of the Sudanese poachers, Hayse made what he calls "a very difficult decision" to help.



"It's fine to float down an unexplored river, doing a first descent and having a great time," said Hayse, "but we came to believe we had an obligation at that point to do something more. A whole ecosystem was going to be lost, just so a few hundred outsiders could make money.



"Unfortunately, the poachers weren't going to leave just because we told them to. If we were going to save this place, people would have to be killed."



Hayse, long active in environmental causes in the western United States, has contributed about U.S. $130,000 and recruited volunteers to his nonprofit group, Africa Rainforest and River Conservation (ARRC). The group has hired a South African former mercenary to recruit and train an anti-poaching force of 400 local men, who will protect the 60,000 square miles (155,000 square kilometers) of wilderness, equivalent to the size of Florida. Also planned are scientific studies, road repair, school and medical dispensary construction, and ecological education. Hayse estimates that the project will need about $600,000 per year to keep it going.



Working in one of the most corrupt, anarchic settings on Earth, the operation has struggled to get on its feet amid financial setbacks, rumors of impending coup attempts, and allegations of illicit diamond-trading.



Mainstream conservation organizations have been keen to distance themselves from lethal anti-poaching efforts and the growing "eco-mercenary" movement, in which international groups of enforcers do the dirty work that governments and image-conscious environmental organizations can't. But many environmentalists quietly cheer for the project's success.



"We wouldn't do it," says the World Wildlife Fund's Richard Carroll, who considered WWF involvement in the area in the late 1990s. "But hopefully Hayse can make it happen. It's really a last-ditch effort. I just hope he understands what he's getting into. These people are heavily armed and very dangerous. It's basically a war situation."
 
Posts: 3331 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Even the bush people must be held accountable for their actions as much as everyone else.

IMO poaching is a serious crime and the use of deadly force is fully justified.




Well from what I can see it is a supply and demand,free market econony...one could almost say its the "American way"...there is something I want / prize / desire..someone is going to get that thing for me.
Perhaps..just perhaps if the countries to which rhino horn,Ivory,tiger bones etc etc were to realise what effect they are actually having on animal populations,this would not be so much of a problem.
Saw a documentary on the tv with a load of Japanese men eating tiger dick soup to increase their virility,why couldn't they just take Viagra?
To oriental people really need ivory for name chop seals?
Does tiger bones really work in medicine?..probably not.
The list goes on,its supply and demand and consumerism.

Regards Roebuck

ps We also export tonnes of Red deer stags dicks and antler velevt to the orient,but no problem there as we have loads of stags
 
Posts: 165 | Location: Scottish Highlands | Registered: 28 March 2004Reply With Quote
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Well human life is not cheap to me, not in Africa and not in the USA, and killing poachers does not solve anything, they can be sent to jail and if anyone has to kill in self defence thats one thing but shooting a fleeing poacher who may be very young or even a female is another matter...It is against the law of God.

Kathi, its easy to have an opinnion when someone else is doing your killing for you!! If you have been there and seen it or had to do it, you may not be so damn flipent about killing another human being.

Its easy to tell who has been there and who has not. The reality of killing another only hits home when you see what you have done, and you have to make peace with your maker......

I have no more to say on this bullshit thread..Your welcome to your opinnions.
 
Posts: 42226 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Ray, it's pretty easy to find folks willing to use deadly force in Africa. They do that even when they are not receiving a government salary to do so.



And it is a practical fact that life is cheap in cultures across Africa. There is nothing wrong with us acknowledging the fact.



This event occurred in ZIM. A black government made a law applicable to black people regarding poaching. A black man violated that law and was killed by another black man as the law provides.



Where is the problem?



Of course Mugabe is a Marxist crook, but that is another subject entirely.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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"Well from what I can see it is a supply and demand,free market econony...one could almost say its the "American way"...."

Regardless of your piss poor opinion of America, real or imagined, crime is never "the American way".
 
Posts: 932 | Location: Delaware, USA | Registered: 13 September 2003Reply With Quote
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If we are going to talk personally, although this thread was not talking about that, I will offer my persomal opinion ..

Would I shoot a poacher whom is unarmed ...NO NO NO

Would I shoot a poacher with an AK 47 whom took me on, well the answer is obvious I would have thought ...

BUT we are talking about Africans metering out their own justice, just like the Arabs meter out their own justice, steal and off with the hand ... Who am I to put my moralistic value on other nationalities in their own country, I dont have to agree BUT is my opinion valid when all is said and done, my opinion is worth nothing in the big scheme of the world

Peter
 
Posts: 3331 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Ray: It moves me to hear your pragmatic compassion and your conviction from personal experience. I agree with you 100%. I like Kathi and I think she is speaking from informed personal conviction as well..I think she has spent time hunting in Zimbabwe..she can speak for herself. However the black and white nature of this arguement--either the poachers are criminals or they are not...and criminals should be shot on sight, is an argument that does not leave much room for negotiation...this arguement amounts to "they are with us or against us" type of argument. These are some pretty stark rules to play by.

Life is not cheap. Anywhere. It sounds odd that there is a personal American eco-animal-rights group in CAR shooting poachers. Will that group come to Alaska next and stop people from shooting wolves? It sounds like there is just too much lawlessness on both sides of this arguement.
 
Posts: 669 | Location: Alaska, USA | Registered: 26 February 2004Reply With Quote
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I agree with both Peter an RWJ...I have seen wanton killing for no good reason, and it is disturbing to me probably because I have been involved...Killing an opponent that has an AK-47 is a justifiable act...but I have seen poachers shot at and have seen poachers wounded for having a Talapia fish camp (poaching fish), mostly kids as a matter of fact..

Like Peter said what we think on this thread probably has little to do with anything, but it is proper for me to expound on my beliefs on this subject.

I know animal rights folks are supporting these "wardens" with guns and ammo to support the killing of tribesmen in some countries, I also know that safari companies do the same thing and so do the hunters who hunt with these Safari companies..I object to that stratagy to the degree of indescriminated killing of poachers by black game wardens, and feel they should be tried in a court of law for such criminal activity, and blacks killin blacks is not justifiable anymore than Saddam using gas on Kirds...

Furthermore, I know many of these so called poachers, they work in every Safari Comapanies camps as trackers, cooks, and what ever they do in the safari business, they are good people trying to survive, they are a part of Africa... In reality perhaps we are the poachers as they are the indigenous, but we are the conqueror so we now own the land, and that's OK, its the age old story of the world, the conqueror rules...I have no problem with that in the USA, Africa or any other country. I don't intend on giving my country back to the indians, but I do feel they deserve not to be shot for poaching and they do poach....

So, whats next, do we start shooting the U.S. rancher or farmer who shoots an ocassional deer for the table or the Georgia/Tenn. hill billy who shots a deer for the table or the indian who poaches on white mans land, just as some advocate shooting a Masai father or son for trying to prevent his baby from an extended belly...or for shooting an elephant for ivory for money to feed his family, a vile deed that is supported by the Government that is killing him for doing so. Do we put him in the same class with the Game Scout who kills them then poaches the same animal...All I would like to see is justice for all...

Its not a cut and dried subject, a lot of mistakes have been made in Africa by white people and now by black people, the rulers and Governments in both cases seem to be at fault, or as the greatest of statesman once said in British parliment, "Neva, I say neva, trust big Government...

All I am saying is killing is not the answer to all things great and small, it is an option that must be considered carefully, I am not a liberal nor do I think in liberal terms, but I do have a faith in God, and think we should try our best to follow his commandments...

But since this subject has been of considerable debate for ions and has caused many wars since the beginning of time I doubt that it will be solved on this board
 
Posts: 42226 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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I apologize to anyone I might have offended.

Maybe I am desensitized from where I live. In 2002 there were 729 murders in the county where I live (Cook County), and 949 in the state. As opposed to 36 murders in Idaho and 15 in Wyoming.



I have been to Zimbabwe four times, 1994, 1996, 2000, and 2003, and I have seen the tragic results of poacher's snares.



I know what it is like to see a human die from a gunshot wound. Last summer our best friend was killed by a shotgun blast to the stomach. He was a Master Sergeant with the State Police.

I spent many a night in the trauma center at Christ Hospital with the wives and family of gunshot troopers.



Believe me I am "Not Flippant" about killing anyone.
 
Posts: 9533 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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I have no beef with you Kathi, and no appologise is needed, I have a great deal of respect for you and Peter is a very good personal friend of mine as is his family, and they always will be, I am just saying that nothing, particularly in Africa, is what it seems in todays world....

Also it is hard to apply what is acceptable in one African country to what is acceptable in another....The poachers in the North of Tanzania or near the Burundi border are quite violent and are in the catagory of terroist, that changes things a good deal...the poachers that come from another country may be in fact there for other reasons and intend on doing harm where ever they go...So I was talking of the bush African who only poaches to feed and sell meat within his people, specifically the bush meat market.
 
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As long as the dynamics remain unchanged over there, for every poacher killed there will be someone equally desperate to take their place. I do not think that many people would willingly take a job knowing if they are caught they may be summarily killed, if they have other employment options open to them. Especially what is coined "subsistence poaching", people who are pretty much trying to get something to eat but their choice of food may be something that the gov't can profit economically from instead.

At any rate, the only way this can change is from the top, killing them off from the bottom has never worked that well no matter what continent the masses happen to be starving in at that point in time.
 
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I don't know if I would waste a good GS Solid on one of them, but I would consider a Match King.
 
Posts: 3512 | Location: Denton, TX | Registered: 01 June 2001Reply With Quote
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Ray,
I read your comments and was relieved. I'm just glad to see that we haven't all gone crazy. What is the real difference from someone killing an animal to feed their family and one of us paying to do it? I know the methods differ, snaring, suffering and such but the end result is the same.Before anyone talks about a quick death by our type of hunting; if you have not lost a wounded animal you have not hunted enough.... it happens.
Ed
 
Posts: 93 | Location: Hants. UK | Registered: 05 January 2004Reply With Quote
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A few weekends ago we were hunting and as we were following fresh pigs tracks we jumped the neigbour fence by 200 metres (not a big deal in my country), the farmer confused us with sheep thieves and start shooting, I don't know if he was shooting us or to the air, when I saw my friends running away I stop and aimed but something tell me not to do it...

Finally he apologized and nothing happends but afterwards we find that he has killed one of our dogs, and believe me, it took me some time to stop my friends out of giving him "a little visit".

You don't shoot people just like that, and once you started you open a "no end" problem.

I agree with Mr. Atkinson, shooting poachers is not the solution, and if you are a real hunter don't put together someone hunting for meat with a drug dealer!!!! NO WAY

But this is just my opinion.
LG
 
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all of the opinions above are credible and everyone entitled to what they think, and that is why there are no real answers to many things in our world, and that is simply because not everyone agrees on everything.

I do not know what or if there is an answer to poaching in Africa as it has always been that way and probably always will be that way until there is either no value to the animal parts, or the animal is no longer around. From I read from kathi's post, she was realting to what i would call money poachers who are in the business of poaching animals strictly for the re-sale of skins, tusks and horns etc. These type of poachers are very dangerous in that they are skilled and know what the consequences are if caught, and they normally do not give up without a fight when caught! If a poacher has a gun I would agree that the game wardens can and should do whatever force is necessary to apprehend the poachers. If they have guns, you can bet they know how to use them, and one should consider their life in danger! That is when deadly force should come into play and no one should have a problem with that. I do not think that is much different than anywhere else in the world. If I came across some poachers on my ranch here in Texas and they had guns and threaten my life and were a danger to my life, I would not hesitate to shoot them right here in Texas. Now of course if I came across people like Lorenzo above, who jumped my fence following pigs with guns and they did not show any danger, then I would appraoch them to find out what the hell they are doing on the property! I think that is the difference though, and everyone knows when they are committing and illegal act or not. If you jump a fence in Texas, you better have permission though! But Texas is a far cry from the bush in Africa, and anyone who is caught miles within a restricted hunting area is committing an illegal act. If they want to fight, then I agree they should be shot on the spot, otherwise any other poacher will know that there is no serious action and that they can get away with it. if they simply realize that they have been caught and give up, then no reason for any shooting and process them through the "great" court system.

There is a big difference though between the serious poachers that are there for the money and the little poachers that are doing it for fish. This type of poaching will never be stopped IMO, and the only positive way of dealing with the little poachers is to educate and to support the local villages that they come from. it has worked for many outfitters in Tanzania and is a great way to control the poaching and help the villages close by. Hire these little poachers for jobs in the camps, and at the same time build a school or clinic in the village, and I can assure you that those same poachers will start to respect your hunting area and realize that they benifit from the wildlife in a more postive way and will not poach in that area during the off season, and if they find out anyone from that village is poaching, they will deal with the offender themselves.

The big poachers are not that easy though, as most of them go into other countries to do the poaching, and this is the dangerous and very serious poacher that has to be dealt with very seriously. These type of poachers must have a consequence as these are not "my family is starving type" and are simply there for the slaughter and monetary value of the animals. Whether it is shoot to kill, or cut off the the trigger finger, the consequence has to be serious with this type.
 
Posts: 473 | Location: San Antonio, Texas & Tanzania | Registered: 20 November 2003Reply With Quote
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Lorenzo,
I did not compare a meat poacher to a drug dealer. I compared the excuse of poachers to drug dealers.

Any large metropolitan narcotics officer (I am talking about real street cops, the officers in the trenches who are slapping whores and kicking doors)can tell you of conducting surveillances in a known drug area. The street corner dealer who is pitching his $10 rocks (crack cocaine) gets arrested. What is his response? I am just trying to feed my family.

The poachers in this article are elephant poachers and are believed to be from Mozambique.

And what was that comment "if you are a real hunter"?
 
Posts: 9533 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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The group on this site can't even agree on what bullet to use, so I suppose there is no way to agree on when to end a human life. I'm not in the soft-hearted crowd, for whatever that's worth.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Quote:


The poachers in this article are elephant poachers




Elephant poachers...for ivory?...its all supply and demand folks,this stuff is in demand in the rich westernised countries..so the poachers supply and satisy the demand,they get shot...so what!!...plenty more to replace them,its a dirty job for sure but someone's going to do it.
Perhaps if there was no or reduced demand for ivory then the Elephants wouldn't be killed for it,and no poacher is going to risk paying the ultimate price for something he is going to get little financial gain from.

Just a thought.

Roebuck
 
Posts: 165 | Location: Scottish Highlands | Registered: 28 March 2004Reply With Quote
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In Central Africa, wildlife poaching has become a form of war. Isolated hunters with primitive weapons have been replaced by well-funded, highly organized groups of foreign poachers. These poachers are heavily armed, and extremely thorough -- they'll kill everything that moves, including people.

By some accounts these paramilitary poaching teams are getting bigger and more destructive. They're a threat to wildlife and political stability. But NPR's John Nielsen reports attempts are under way to turn this trend around.

Until the end of the 1980s, the forests and savannahs on the eastern side of the Central African Republic were full of wild animals. Local hunters and a few poachers killed everything they could eat, and it seemed to make little difference.

Then, in the 1990s, the resource wars began. Large and alarmingly well-organized gangs of poachers came west from Sudan. Hides and meat were cut from the carcasses of lions, leopards, cheetah, hyena, buffalo and elephant.

It was horrible, a tour guide said, speaking to a film crew that later sold some of its footage to NPR. Poachers used anti-tank weapons to blow the heads off elephants. Forests and savannahs were burned to the ground. Groups of animals were killed en masse. The meat is smoked and shiped to crowded African cities, or to exotic restaurants in Asia and Europe.

Dirt-poor governments faced with problems ranging from health care crises to armed rebellions have been powerless to stop the so-called "bushmeat" trade, conservationists say.

Poaching expert Kathi Austin directs the arms and conflict program at a non-profit group called the Fund for Peace. She's tracked African poaching trends since 1987, and says poaching grew more destructive as the market for bushmeat was commercialized, then militarized.

Austin says profits from the sale of bushmeat can be enormous. She predicts war-like bushmeat hunts will be more common in the years ahead, unless governments of Central African countries find the will and the money needed to reverse these trends.

But outside help -- long absent as diplomats and funding sources largely ignored the crisis -- may now be on the way. At a recent U.N. environmental summit in South Africa, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced that the United States would contribute more than $50 million to an ambitious plan to preserve wildlife and habitat in the Congo River basin. American environmental groups, American logging companies, the European Union, and other countries have pledged tens of millions of dollars more.

If this initiative proceeds as planned, poachers in the Congo Basin will be tracked by observers, barred from logging roads and shunned by governments that used to look the other way. They will also be confronted by well-trained, well-equipped park guards.
 
Posts: 9533 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Japan: A Major Wildlife Consumer

By Richard Wilcox

While the United States holds the dubious honor of being the world's largest consumer of wildlife, the relatively small country of Japan has one of the highest per capita levels of wildlife consumption in the world. The Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA) adds that Asia itself is a "black hole for endangered species."

"So what?" many would ask. Animals are dumb and we are their lords and masters to do to them as we please. While this argument is at the extreme end of the natural resource utilization spectrum, it is sadly not uncommon. On a more humane and idealistic note, animal liberationist Steve Smith contends, "There can be no rational or moral reason for abusing or killing animals for food, science, recreation or profit."

A $5 Billion Industry
Of course, without non-human species, the human animal would probably not be around for long. Our own selfish survival is intrinsically dependent upon the abundance of the earth's other plant and animal species. But as environmentalist Joni Seager notes, "By the year 2050, half of all the species alive today could be extinct." The problem of monitoring threats to species is compounded by a lack of reliable data. Habitat destruction (as with rainforests) is occurring at such a rapid rate that, according to Seager, "The numbers of species threatened are seriously underestimated."

Global trafficking in wildlife is a $5 billion a year industry with an estimated 25% of animal and bird species being sold illegally. Asia is a central market with Western and Asian organized crime syndicates among the most prominent movers of live primates and birds and numerous other types of animal derivatives. The Italian mafia smuggle cocaine in bird carcasses and dump nuclear waste into the Mediterranean Sea while Japanese Yakuza are into whatever will make a buck for them - guns, drugs, sex-slaves, or illegally obtained wildlife.

A 1998 Greenwire poll found that nearly 70% of the 400 biologists surveyed believe that a "mass extinction" of plants and animals is occurring globally. Richard Leakey has called this the "sixth extinction," in reference to the five previous mass-extinction episodes that scientists theorize have occurred in Earth's history. But Greenwire also notes that most Americans seem relatively unaware of the ongoing catastrophe. Undoubtedly the same level of ignorance is prevalent in Japan where the enormous government/corporate propaganda system (similar to the USA's) diverts people's attention from meaningful issues.

Japan's Legacy
Of Ivory Consumption
According to TRAFFIC-Japan, the wildlife monitoring arm of the World Wide Fund for Nature (WWF), from 1960 to 1989 Japan consumed no less than six thousand tonnes of ivory. This is roughly equivalent to 600,000 elephants. These figures are conservative and do not include the large number of elephants that have been poached during the ivory-ban years of the 1990's. Since elephants are sensate creatures of a higher order this could be considered as one of the worst animal-genocides in history.

While there were once millions of elephants roaming Africa and Asia, today Africa itself hosts only a few hundred thousand, while the Asian elephant is near extinction.

In 1999, Japan will be allowed to legally import ivory from Africa, to be used mainly in its enormously wasteful hanko (name stamp) industry. Japanese hanko manufacturers complain that with today's small tusk size (the great tuskers of Africa having long been annihilated along with their hardy genes) only one third of a tusk can be used for hanko production. The rest is waste. Not only is the practice of slaughtering these magnificent creatures for something as mundane as a name stamp completely moronic, but it is becoming less sustainable with each passing year. African hippo tusks have also served to bolster the Japanese hanko market in recent times.

The Ivory Trade Renewed
Nonetheless, last year's meeting of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (now there's an Orwellism for you) voted to allow renewed limited trade in ivory between Zimbabwe, Botswana, and Namibia with Japan. As Ben White, a veteran animal rights activist put it, "The pervasive stench of corruption filled the atmosphere" of the conference as Japan bought off the votes of other smaller and aid-dependent nations, while someone was even using wiretaps in order to sabotage the work of NGO's .

The greatest fear is that renewed trade will lead to more elephant poaching.Evidence seems to support these fears. There have been recent incidents of poaching in Central and Western Africa as well as in India and Vietnam. During the ivory ban years 1990-1997 poaching was reduced drastically.

Masayuki Sakamoto of the Japan Wildlife Conservation Society (JWCS) agrees with the CITES expert panel, and states that in Japan, "The control of retail trade is not adequate to differentiate the products of legally acquired ivory from those of illegal sources." In other words, Japan's system for preventing illegal ivory and other plundered wildlife from entering the country is hopelessly arcane and ineffective and needs to be put under democratic control. While pressure should be brought upon the government to improve legislation and law enforcement in this area, JWCS is also wasting no time in seeking to influence ivory hanko customers directly. Consumer awareness campaigns can be effective in dissuading people from purchasing things that have harmful consequences.
 
Posts: 9533 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Kathi,
Thank you for that very informative post,perhaps if the westernised nations were made more aware through education of the implications of utilising endangered species for esentially trivial uses...seals etc, tiger bone medicine products,rhino horn aphrodisiacs,this would reduce their usage and perhaps the knock on effect would be a reduction in poaching....just cutting one head of the hydra ie Killing a poacher is not going to stop the root problem.

Regards Roebuck
 
Posts: 165 | Location: Scottish Highlands | Registered: 28 March 2004Reply With Quote
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Kathi, I appreciate your postings regards poaching. It does point out the true source of the problem, which too many would like to tie to the poacher. There would be few market poachers if there were not a market for their wares.

If enforcement of poaching laws is to be tried in a serious manner, defense actions by those enforcers has to be part of the issue. I must say that to expect enforcement to be productive, perhaps the market should be looked at.

That brings up the question of "by who". A can of worms I doubt many want to open, as the market is international in nature, and secretive in nature for the most part. It would appear that the governments of Africa have to much to gain by the continued practice, including shooting poachers on sight.

If anything I said makes it seem that you are the problem, that is not my thinking. The problem is way beyond that. It is one problem that I would like to see addressed in a serious manner on a world scale, unfortunately, the fix that may arise could be as bad as the original problem, I think.

Perhaps we might agree that a "good poaching industry is a dead poaching industry", I just don't want to see hunting go with it.
 
Posts: 1944 | Location: Moses Lake, WA | Registered: 06 November 2001Reply With Quote
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As I see it, the value of the elephants in hunting fees is too often absorbed by the gov'ts. and not passed along to the locals.

I suspect that there were never these millions of elephants that the greenies claim. The locals have been killing elephant since the dawn of mankind. As populations increased the elephant populations decreased. What exactly is the solution to that?

I also do not belive that the big-tusk genes are gone. They just never make it to old age anymore. And half the plant species gone by 2050? What a load of crap.
 
Posts: 19380 | Location: Ocala Flats | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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A PH once told me what needs to be done is to insert a small amount of radioactive enriched uranium (or whatever) into some rhino horn. Then put it into the poaching buyers hands.

Take out the entire poached goods supply chain.
 
Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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500 grs.
I humbly disagree with your analysis, I will tell you that I am not particularly of the "soft hearted" crowd as you refer to, even though I am the primary antagonist against the hard hearted souls who are posting here about their ability to take human life without a second thought or to let someone do it for them..That to me is town talk, it sounds good but in reality it isn't that easy to do.

Given "justification and probal cause with no other recourse", I could, and would not hesitate, a second to kill anyone on this forum or on the face of this earth for that matter........Now thats not soft hearted my good man.
 
Posts: 42226 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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What always amazes me in South Africa is our own attitude to poaching. Poaching by white folk is spoken of almost romantically, whereas the same activity if committed by a black man is the most heinous atrocity and he should be strung up!
 
Posts: 541 | Location: Mokopane, Limpopo Province, South Africa | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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The real answer is poverty is killing wildlife in africa. Not one of the poachers that I have killed or caused to be killed deserved to die. Weather it was the one who shot me, or the guy who killed one of my men - none of them were doing any more than trying to feed their families. The real criminals who I wold gladly shoot were the idian middlemen in Lusaka, or my own Boss - the Director of Parks in Zim at the time - one Willas Makombe- who orchestrated the poaching. The men who killed our Rhino and Elephant and did the dying were paid between US$1 a day for a porter and US$5 for the hunter and the gang was paid an average of US$5 per kg for Rino horn and US$2 for ivory. In a country where the minimum wage is less than US$5 per month that is worth the risk. Makombe and co though sold the horn at an average of 5000 a kg.

Demand will always be there - end users and peasants willing to die for pathetically little money. The evil are the middle men.

On the practicle side though, the middle men are often too well connected politically to be dealt with so you are left trying to stem the tide by killing the actual poachers, and when you are lying on the ground with an AK bullet through your shoulder, there is no question that the poacher holding that AK at that moment is fair game. Still I resent killing only the poor while the rich go free and hire more peasants to make them richer still or die trying.
 
Posts: 3026 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Ganyana,



But what is the solution?



There is greed everywhere. Like my hometown where they will eliminate acres and acres of wildlife habitat for a new apartment complex without the blink of an eye. Not really any different than poaching elephants, just on a smaller scale. My little 20 acres of bird habitat is constantly under assault by rising taxes to force me out so as to continue the "progress" of more land "development."



I think a small part (and it usually winds up a very small, insignificant part) of the preventing the poaching problem is the ability of some people to do the right thing. If one has a moral standard, then there just may be some that will not poach regardless of their economic situation.



But, unfortunately, any moral standards get overshadowed by mass poaching and apartment buildings.
 
Posts: 19380 | Location: Ocala Flats | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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