http://forums.accuratereloadin...871069581#3871069581

This was the the LCTF's official response.

Any predictions on when the USF&W will issue a "ruling"?

I have been told that it will most likely be 6 months minimum until a ruling is made.

Dallas Safari Club has been the leader in setting the example USF&W is looking for. SCI sadly has been a disappointment.

From what I have been told...that with out some positive response from SCI...USF&W is going to be hard pressed to garner the support it needs to stave off the left winged pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
SCI sadly has been a disappointment.

Guess they are too busy bragging on the 1.2 million raised to "save Lions, hunting". It's all over their cover of Safari Times.

I don't get involved in the SCI bashing and have no intention of starting here but what is their problem with this?

In an e-mail from Dr Packer to Dr Easter, he stated bluntly: "if SCI will follow DSC's lead, the lion will stay on quota!!"

Did their planning meeting of Jan 27, 2013 never discuss this?

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:

Did their planning meeting of Jan 27, 2013 never discuss this?

I have no idea how it works with SCI but are minutes of such meetings available to the general membership?

Anybody on here a SCI insider that might know?

quote:

"if SCI will follow DSC's lead, the lion will stay on quota!!"

Maybe that is the problem - SCI being who they are would not lower their prestigious selves to the likes of lowly DSC

This is what I was told:

1) maybe some truth to fujo's statement
2) they did take the matter up in meeting
3) in the end they decided to tell USF&W to 'stick it' and raise money to fight them.

This is a very sad thing as to the best of my knowledge...had SCI simply endorsed the same principles as DSC...it would have pretty much been over. And the saddest part of it all is that the principles endorsed by DSC are the best conservation tactics known today for wild lion management and are already proven in the field by 'beta sites'. It was our one chance to put hunting and science on the same page and take the teeth away from the 'antis'.

Just imagine how this will play for USF&W..."SCI refuses to endorse known scientific strategy to manage huntable wild lions and fights to allow immature lion harvest."

Folks - I think its very important to listen to Lane here, and who's doing what - as it pertains to the Lion issue. Nobody knows more about both sides, nobody has closer ties to both sides, and nobody has a greater concern for the lion - than Dr. Lane Easter.

Please help him, help us, help the lion.

Received this from SCI:


Fighting For Lions – Enabling Conservation of the African Lion

Safari Club International (SCI) Foundation would like to express extreme gratitude to the SCI Staff, SCI Members, Chapters, the Hunters Legacy Fund, SCI Foundation Board of Directors and the hunting community who demonstrated their commitment to science-based wildlife management around the world. Once again, sportsmen and women have shown leadership in generosity, in excess of $1.3 million, to solve complex natural resource management issues. Plans are underway to use these funds to leverage additional support from partners in the conservation community which will increase the impact of the contributions, and enhance the overall scope of our lion research initiative, Fighting For Lions. The SCI Foundation Staff and Conservation Committee met on the Monday after the Convention’s Saturday night fundraiser to begin developing a comprehensive strategy to collect the necessary data and educate decision makers about the real threats to the sustainability of the species. Read more at http://firstforwildlife.wordpr...can-lion-initiative/.



If you would like to help SCI Foundation save lions please contribute at https://member.scifirstforhunt.../static/donate/lion/.

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
Received this from SCI:


Fighting For Lions – Enabling Conservation of the African Lion

Safari Club International (SCI) Foundation would like to express extreme gratitude to the SCI Staff, SCI Members, Chapters, the Hunters Legacy Fund, SCI Foundation Board of Directors and the hunting community who demonstrated their commitment to science-based wildlife management around the world. Once again, sportsmen and women have shown leadership in generosity, in excess of $1.3 million, to solve complex natural resource management issues. Plans are underway to use these funds to leverage additional support from partners in the conservation community which will increase the impact of the contributions, and enhance the overall scope of our lion research initiative, Fighting For Lions. The SCI Foundation Staff and Conservation Committee met on the Monday after the Convention’s Saturday night fundraiser to begin developing a comprehensive strategy to collect the necessary data and educate decision makers about the real threats to the sustainability of the species. Read more at http://firstforwildlife.wordpr...can-lion-initiative/.



If you would like to help SCI Foundation save lions please contribute at https://member.scifirstforhunt.../static/donate/lion/.

Kathi,
With all due respect...the above is just the same old rhetoric. And...the mantra of send me more money is just not what is needed.

If you really want to help the lion...call SCI and ask them to support the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion written by the LCTF and fully supported by DSC.

P.S. There is no time for any money to help SCI help the lion even if their intentions were pure...which they are not. The fight to prevent the lion from being listed as an endangered species is here and now and being actively waged. The descision will be made soon and unfortunately will probably be cast in stone.

The USF&W is keen for hunters to police themselves and be the leaders in lion conservation...but they need some evidence to support it. And when SCI refuses to endorse the best science we have available to date...it does not look good. And...it makes it even harder for good people like Aaron Neilson, Bwanamich, and many more to make the case we are trying to make in our recommendations in regards to the petition.

quote:

The USF&W is keen for hunters to police themselves and be the leaders in lion conservation...but they need some evidence to support it.

Zig's film did much to present hard evidence.

Maybe SCI could acknowledge this and somehow support film makers such as he?

Well done Lane.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

The USF&W is keen for hunters to police themselves and be the leaders in lion conservation...but they need some evidence to support it.

Zig's film did much to present hard evidence.

Maybe SCI could acknowledge this and somehow support film makers such as he?

Well done Lane.

Agreed Andrew and thanks for the well done.

But what I meant in my post was that USF&W needs to know that the organizations such as SCI support conservation and science. Right now...SCI is thumbing its nose...and it does not bode well.

Sometimes egos get in the way of doing the right thing.
Playing second fiddle to DSC on this will be a pill not easily swallowed.
Keep up the good fight.

What happened to the money SCI claims to have collectd for lion conservation?

Saeed-
Kathi answered that above but briefly, they have begun their own "Lion research initiative"

http://firstforwildlife.wordpr...can-lion-initiative/

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
What happened to the money SCI claims to have collectd for lion conservation?

My sources tell me they will use for litigation expenses to legally contest the up-list once it happens.

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
Saeed-
Kathi answered that above but briefly, they have begun their own "Lion research initiative"

http://firstforwildlife.wordpr...can-lion-initiative/

The only problem is that 90+% of the legitimate lion researchers are either an author of the huntable male lion definition or have pledged their support. That leaves SCI in an awkward position for supporting research.

I understand that, Dr. Easter. And their way to help the situation seems crystal clear to me.

So...let me get this straight...

SCI is not going to effectively use this $1.3Million +/- to stop USFW from uplisting lions instead using it for lawsuits after uplisting occurs?? Is this the gist of it?

And to help avoid uplisting, all they have to do is pledge to adopt the same science and conservation policies that SO MANY individuals and groups have already accepted?

Am I the only one who is left scratching my head here?

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
I understand that, Dr. Easter. And their way to help the situation seems crystal clear to me.

So...let me get this straight...

SCI is not going to effectively use this $1.3Million +/- to stop USFW from uplisting lions instead using it for lawsuits after uplisting occurs?? Is this the gist of it?

And to help avoid uplisting, all they have to do is pledge to adopt the same science and conservation policies that SO MANY individuals and groups have already accepted?

Am I the only one who is left scratching my head here?

Yessir...you are 100% correct in your assessment.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
SCI sadly has been a disappointment.

Guess they are too busy bragging on the 1.2 million raised to "save Lions, hunting". It's all over their cover of Safari Times.

They raised the money for SCI, not to save lion hunting. If they were concerned about lion hunting they would support the LCTF initiative and fund research and conservation efforts, but that would mean the vast majority of the money would be spent outside their organization; however, if they fight a legal battle, which they will lose, I am sure the vast majority of the funds will end up as internal spend.

An individual hunter has to be willing to spend $50-100k in order to hunt a wild lion; it appears SCI's price to not support that hunter's lion hunting privilege is $1.2M. First for hunters...

Has John Jackson of Conservation Force taken a position with respect to LCTF definition? Mr. Jackson has certainly been a leading voice on Lion Conservation.

As an SCI Member I would like to think funds that are raised go for intelligent purposes. Having said that petty politics do interfere with the end goal, as it does in many private and public organizations.

Perhaps folks like Craig Bottington, Ivan Carter, Jim Shocky, and members of SCI Executive Board opine this issue on the forum.

John Jackson exchanges email with Aaron and I on a regular basis with the occasional phone conversation and face to face visit.

John Jackson too is an attorney and therefore has attorney ways.

We have not seen eye-to-eye on every aspect but in principle agree.

We (both Aaron, I, and other LCTF members and consultants) believe the LCTF has taken a more realistic approach that has a much greater chance of staving off the ESA up-list, but even more importantly...stabilizing and increasing lion populations to carrying capacity.

quote:

Perhaps folks like Craig Bottington, Ivan Carter, Jim Shocky, and members of SCI Executive Board opine this issue on the forum.

Look forward to that.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vining:
Has John Jackson of Conservation Force taken a position with respect to LCTF definition? Mr. Jackson has certainly been a leading voice on Lion Conservation.

As an SCI Member I would like to think funds that are raised go for intelligent purposes. Having said that petty politics do interfere with the end goal, as it does in many private and public organizations.

Perhaps folks like Craig Bottington, Ivan Carter, Jim Shocky, and members of SCI Executive Board opine this issue on the forum.

Tim - As of now, JJ does support the LCTF's definition of a "huntable lion". Also, folks like Boddington, Shockey, Carter and others have all endorsed the definition too. Along with DSC, so do many, many, outfitters, PH's, booking agents, hunters, conservationists, etc, etc.

We gathered almost every single leading lion expert/scientist in the world, to collaborate on the "huntable" male lion. Why would anyone/organization NOT adopt the definition, and if not, why? Lastly, if they have one better, based on better science than we have, by all means put it forth - I would happily endorse it.

Does not apply to Zambia.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Does not apply to Zambia.

Hopefully...it will again soon!

TTT

An important message here, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

"if SCI will follow DSC's lead, the lion will stay on quota!!"

Maybe that is the problem - SCI being who they are would not lower their prestigious selves to the likes of lowly DSC

If that's true then why do they have booths at Dallas Safari Club convention?

Matt
Where was the SCI booth located at DSC?
Not doubting you, just don't remember seeing it.

I'll ask the question again - anyone?

We gathered almost every single leading lion expert/scientist in the world, to collaborate on the "huntable" male lion. Why would anyone/organization NOT adopt the definition, and if not, why? Lastly, if they have one better, based on better science than we have, by all means put it forth - I would happily endorse it.

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:
Matt
Where was the SCI booth located at DSC?
Not doubting you, just don't remember seeing it.

Now that is a good question!! I was sure someone said they had a record book/membership booth there this year, maybe it was a previous year?

Looks like there wasn't one this year....
Thanks for the correction!!

Maybe SCI is going for a new slogan: SCI - Last for Lion

Well guys, I sent an email to the SCIF Washington office and got a reply from them. Sounds to me like there is a bit to the rest of the story...

Also, notably enough, they gave me a list of some of the SCI funded projects.

I think that some folks here are so "rabidly" anti-SCI that the folks there don't feel comfortable commenting over here. I did delete out the name and email addresses, but it should be easy enough to get for any one interested. I will admit that my email was probably not the friendliest one I have sent, but the staff there were very friendly and prompt in their reply. I did copy this with their permission.


Mr. Butler,

From time to time I do check the Accurate Reloading forum; not always a safe place to be when you're an SCI employee! Regardless, I did see the recent conversation about lions, conservation funding for lions, and the age limitation.



The LCTF position statement on sustainable lion hunting is premature in being issued, because the research project that will demonstrate physical characteristic correlation to lion age is not yet complete. In fact SCI Foundation is funding the research by Paula White to demonstrate the viability of this very position statement that was generated by the LCTF



They called SCIF to tell us they are moving forward with the 12 month review and not waiting for the periodic review, as previously promised. I do not think that most biologists and researchers are tuned up the legal intricacies of ESA listings and the political bent that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is taking. Just look at the FWS proposal to uplist polar bears at CITES; range states including Canada, Demark (Greenland), and Norway along with the CITES Secretaiat think it does not need uplisting. SCI and the SCI Foundation are advocating against this uplisting along with the World Wildlife Fund and the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. It appears as if the FWS left science at the door.



In closing, no other organization has done what SCI Foundation has done in African for lion conservation. Most folks will scoff at that statement; that's a cynical view point but to reinforce the credibility of the statement please see the list of conservation projects in Africa listed here.



Sincerely,





Anticipated 2013 projects

Ø Namibia and Zambia Leopard Population Research

Ø Support Existing Lion Research

Ø Human Wildlife Conflict Mitigation

Ø Non-Detriment Finding Support

Ø African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Zambia

Ø African lion aging techniques

Ø Population census in Zambia and other range states

Ø Anti-poaching efforts

Ø Addressing threats to lion populations



Past Accomplishments (2007-2012)

· Africa Wildlife Genomics, Genetics and Health – 2012, 2011, 2010

· Zambia Lion Project – 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009, 2007

· Regional Guide to Aging Lions In Zambia -- 2010

· Namibia Leopard Survey – 2010

· Malawi Lion Survey – 2010

· Published “Conservation Status of the Lion in Malawi” – 2010

· Tanzania Lion Literature Review – 2009

· Tanzania Lion Survey – 2009

· Published “Conservation Status of the Lion in Tanzania” – 2009

· Mozambique Lion Survey – 2009

· Mozambique national lion workshop – 2009

· Published “Conservation Status of the Lion in Mozambique” – 2009

· Published Namibia’s Lion Management Strategy – 2009

· Published Zambia’s Conservation Strategy and Action Plan for the Africa Lion – 2009

· Kalahari Wildlife Assessment: Predator survey via spoor counts in Botswana – 2012, 2008

· ZiMoZa transfrontier boundary project – 2002 through 2008

· ZiMoZa Human Wildlife Conflict Workshop – 2008

· Mozambique lion desk survey (literature review) – 2008

· Mozambique lion field survey (qualitative survey) – 2008

· Zambia Lion Aging Project – Dr. Paula White – 2007 and 2008

· Namibia national lion workshop – lion management plan – 2008

· Southern Africa Elephant Management Strategy – 2007 and 2008

· Human Wildlife Conflict: Perspectives and Attitude Assessment Survey – Tarangire Plains 2007

· Zimbabwe national lion workshop – lion management plan 2006, republish in 2008

· Regional Conservation Strategy for the Lion, Western and Central Africa – 2005/2006

· Regional Conservation Strategy for the Lion, Eastern and Southern Africa – 2005/2006

· Database Workshop for Southern African Directors of Wildlife Conservation Departments – 2008

· Best Practices of Trophy Hunting Workshop – South Africa 2007

· Assisted with drafting of a revised Wildlife Policy in Kenya – 2007

· Ethiopia Wildlife Department GIS Program and Computer Upgrade –2006/2007

· Ethiopia Mtn. Nyala population and habitat research project – 2006/2007

· African education and empowerment grant – PHASA – ANNUAL

· African education and empowerment grant – NAPHA – ANNUAL

· SCIF humanitarian blue bag program – ANNUAL

· Facilitate annual government to government meetings at SCI Convention, in Washington D.C., in Africa, at CITES meetings – Annual

· Scholarship Program: Pretoria College for Technical Education

· Community Uplift in Tanzania – Constructed two solar-powered medical clinics outfitted with fresh water filtration systems in Tanzania in conjunction with the Friedkin Conservation Fund, located in Uvinza and Mfereji –2008.

· Community water development in Kenya – 2009.



AWCF (2002-2012)

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Botswana 2012

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Swaziland 2011

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Zimbabwe 2010

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Malawi 2009

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Namibia 2008

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Mozambique 2007

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Tanzania 2006

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Mauritius 2005

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – South Africa 2004

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Zambia 2003

· African Wildlife Consultative Forum – Botswana 2002


I think the LCTF is sincere in their approach and view of Lion conservation, but I also think SCI is as well. We do seem to try and attack each other over relatively minimal differences moreso than the anti's do. It sure does not help us in getting our message across as hunters as a whole.

Dr. Butler,

Dr. Paula White is a good friend of both Aaron and I. She herself has asked SCI to adopt this definition and she is an author.

Do you believe if she felt it was premature that she would have agreed to co-author and press for adoption???

Give me a break!

Dr. Easter, all I know is what they told me, and copied it here.

I have met Dr. White, and I don't know if she talked with SCI or SCIF, I do believe that she supports what is scientifically the best option for the lion. If she said she did, she did, and its possible that the guy I was corresponding with does not know what she said.

With your parting shot before, would you (if you worked for SCI) come on here and endure the personal attacks? Or for that matter, take what you say seriously?

Why don't you have Dr. White (or Dr. Packer) drop me an email (you already have mine) and I will give them the name, email address, and phone number of the guy I corresponded with and they can talk with him directly?

Dallas Safari Club continues to lead the pack in having adopted a "Huntable Male Lion" definition that includes a six-year rule for trophy lions. This is a crucial first step -- however, the remainder of the pack now needs to catch up to the leader!We are currently awaiting the official statement regarding SCI's stance on the issue. Obviously, we are all hoping that SCI will get onboard and use their powerful voice to promote sustainable lion hunting as an invaluable tool promoting conservation of wild lion populations.Meanwhile, it would be exceedingly helpful if other hunting organizations, including Professional Hunter Associations of each lion hunting country as well as individual operators, would adopt such a definition thereby demonstrating their own commitment to sustainable hunting. I am aware that DSC has already received the support of many dozens of operators and DSC exhibitors. I believe that the ranks will swell once people become aware of the importance of the situation and are given the opportunity to sign on to this vital concept. As far as I am aware, the "Huntable Lion" definition is a landmark accomplishment with regards scientists and hunters working closely together towards a common goal of lion conservation. We need to do all that we can to keep this ball rolling.

And yet another example of ego and politics preventing some from doing what EVERYONE knows is correct - thus resulting in harm to all.

Leadership at SCI should be ashamed of this bullshit behavior. I am all for further research but in the interim, adopt a practice that the experts agree can only be helpful and certainly not harmful.

Lane,
Thanks for your continued work and for outing the obvious BS in the SCI stance.

quote:

Dallas Safari Club continues to lead the pack in having adopted a "Huntable Male Lion" definition ........... however, the remainder of the pack now needs to catch up to the leader!We are currently awaiting the official statement regarding SCI's stance on the issue.

Uh Oh,...... SCI going to play "follow the leader" or "second string to the Texas Fiddle"?