Gents:
SCI takes a lot of hits here on AR. IMHO correctly so. A couple of questions: Why does not SCI come on AR to explain and/or defend itself and would it be to their benefit to do so?

I dropped SCI for reasons give many times here by AR members 15+ years ago. SCI never responded to my personal questions, promoted put and take hunts as legitimate (record elk on 10 1/2 acres), and looked the other way towards gave violators as long as they got a booth and donation money.

I equate SCI and their ruling class gaining all the benefits from a membership they care nothing about to today's politicians using the USA towards their own benefit whilst destroying the basic fabric the country is built on.

So, why is SCI so silent on AR? Just wondering' and I appreciate your opinions.
Cal

I doubt SCI would deign to respond here; in their opinion, AR is not representative of SCI's membership.

George

Most likely because so many of their actions and policies are indefensible.

I'm ashamed to say I'm a life member and have considered dropping it, worst $1000 dollars I've ever spent.

quote:

Originally posted by d.unger:
Most likely because so many of their actions and policies are indefensible.

I'm ashamed to say I'm a life member and have considered dropping it, worst $1000 dollars I've ever spent.

Yes and no. While some of their actions are self serving and the inner circles and pinnacles are ridiculous, there wasn't a viable presence in DC lobbying circles at least until DSC came along. Do I wish I had spent the money on DSC membership instead of SCI? Yes. But there isn't an organization that doesn't have some warts just like no candidate will please all constituents.

Here's a radical suggestion. Book a whitetail deer hunt with Redpine Whitetails in Vanderbilt Michigan. It is an estate hunt on about 600 acres but I guarantee an enjoyable hunt with great accommodations, good food and super hunting. Best of all it is owned by Larry Higgins the current SCI president and he is always there during whitetail season. You will have a captive audience for 3 days with the main man at SCI. Ask your questions and you will get answers. Any SCI dissenters interested?
If I remember correctly, scoring things predates SCI by about 100 years or so ( Rowland & Ward).

Until DCS can match the member base of SCI, 50k+ to 6k+, DSC will not be able to match the DC resources of SCI. It takes a lot of money to file all those lawsuits, plus lobbyists that keeps us hunting. If DCS gets that big, then the only reason to stay with SCI, is for their gun insurance program.

I have been a member of SCI almost sense it's infancy. I too disagree with it's fat cat attitude and fostering of the put&take type of hunting drawing awards as if that is real hunting, and their allowing folks like "Out Of Africa" to remain members in good standing for years when everyone knew what they really were.

Still, I maintain my membership because I want to see what they are up to, and who is with them and who is not.
In my opinion, SCI proves what most non-hunters think! That is that only rich people who simply want undeserved attention for there kills, and think nothing of conservation and continued viability of wild life in general not just hunting trophies. Playing by the rules seems lost on SCI.

DSC is the result of a break with them many years ago for the reasons just mentioned above. In my opinion DSC does a lot more for conservation, and hunters than any other hunting club. Though I am long time member of SCI I have never attended one of their conventions and have only missed one of DSC conventions that was this year because I was sick. I doubt it will happen next year!

...................................................................

They have been on here from time to time as late as this year.

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:
Until DCS can match the member base of SCI, 50k+ to 6k+, DSC will not be able to match the DC resources of SCI. It takes a lot of money to file all those lawsuits, plus lobbyists that keeps us hunting. If DCS gets that big, then the only reason to stay with SCI, is for their gun insurance program.

And until SCI can increase their membership to numbers even half of the NRA, they will continue to be a fart in the wind in terms of legislation and promoting positive public opinion about hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

quote:

Originally posted by Wesheltonj:
Until DCS can match the member base of SCI, 50k+ to 6k+, DSC will not be able to match the DC resources of SCI. It takes a lot of money to file all those lawsuits, plus lobbyists that keeps us hunting. If DCS gets that big, then the only reason to stay with SCI, is for their gun insurance program.

And until SCI can increase their membership to numbers even half of the NRA, they will continue to be a fart in the wind in terms of legislation and promoting positive public opinion about hunting.

All the hunting groups combined will never be half as big as the NRA. But until this year were have they (NRA) been on hunting.

Well I suspect that any person who was delegated by SCI to talk on here would quickly get tired of being treated like shit by some of the SCI haters on AR, and say to hell with it. Also, as with any actual organization with paid memberships, there is only so far any are going to go with answering questions on a public forum to people who are not members.

Contrary to what some on here believe, AR does not figure largely in the day to day existence of the vast majority of hunter or hunter related organizations. Not a single hunter that I know belongs to or even knows of AR.

I absolutely do not agree with many things SCI does, but I continue to belong because there is no other org of its kind that does as much when it comes to fighting for hunters and funding conservation type initiatives in OTHER parts of the world beyond the Excited States and Africa.
While I to love Africa, I also am devoted to my country and OUR conservation issues and hunting related issues.

DSC doesn't do anything to assist with issues in Canada and so it is not really of any benefit to me to belong to it. When it starts funding conservation initiatives in Canada I will think about joining it............ beyond that, I only have so much money to drop on memberships in a given year and it will be with orgs that actually do something to support wildlife and hunting in my country. Just the way it is.

As said previously, none of the orgs are perfect. SCI sure as hell isn't and the awards program is beyond ridiculous, slams of game birds?? ........ but they provide funding to assist in many projects up here north of the 49th, so they will continue to be the org I pick to belong to out of the two.

May be we will get slams of insects next?

Nothing is beyond the brainless idiots running SCI!

The post immediately above might be one reason the members of SCI don't see any point in wasting their time posting on AR.

The advocacy department of SCI has a handle on AR. My assumption is they can't speak on behalf of awards, records, etc and that's where most of the heat comes from.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be we will get slams of insects next?

Nothing is beyond the brainless idiots running SCI!

I figured you might turn into an SCI supporter since they banned Mark Sullivan from exhibiting at the convention

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Here's a radical suggestion. Book a whitetail deer hunt with Redpine Whitetails in Vanderbilt Michigan. It is an estate hunt on about 600 acres but I guarantee an enjoyable hunt with great accommodations, good food and super hunting. Best of all it is owned by Larry Higgins the current SCI president and he is always there during whitetail season. You will have a captive audience for 3 days with the main man at SCI. Ask your questions and you will get answers. Any SCI dissenters interested?
If I remember correctly, scoring things predates SCI by about 100 years or so ( Rowland & Ward).

So I have to pay 5to 10k for a canned deer hunt to tell the SCI President he and his cronies are full of shot? No thanks...

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Here's a radical suggestion. Book a whitetail deer hunt with Redpine Whitetails in Vanderbilt Michigan. It is an estate hunt on about 600 acres but I guarantee an enjoyable hunt with great accommodations, good food and super hunting. Best of all it is owned by Larry Higgins the current SCI president and he is always there during whitetail season. You will have a captive audience for 3 days with the main man at SCI. Ask your questions and you will get answers. Any SCI dissenters interested?
If I remember correctly, scoring things predates SCI by about 100 years or so ( Rowland & Ward).

So I have to pay 5to 10k for a canned deer hunt to tell the SCI President he and his cronies are full of shot? No thanks...

But you get an award.

AR is just different from SCI. Not too many hunt reports written with scores and record book stats. Canned hunting is generally looked down upon. AR members are biased against SCI behavior - hunt awards and inner circle stuff.

I just don't get the SCI - its rich guys subsiding awards for really really rich guys. They throw a massive hunting show in Vegas and both SCI and DSC are primarily organizations focused on an annual hunting convention/marketing show.

AR probably is a much tougher place than a SCI chapter but AR members do take real hunts and spend real dollars on hunting. I see plenty of outfitters selling their services on AR and a ton go to SCI and DSC shows. The shows matter for the business of selling hunts.

Maybe we as AR members just don't like a lot of aspects of hunting business - record book hunts, canned hunting, checklist hunting.

I dont think AR or SCI is going away. Both are however becoming less relevant as the general public moves away from trophy hunting and hunting elephants, lions and rhinos becomes less and less practical.

SCI is not a members' club at all! That is the problem.

SCI is a private enterprise under the control of a small elite.

They sign up members who are not allowed to be part of the elite.

The management does not serve the members because it is not a members' club.

This will not change because the elite will not want to change. They make too much money from the private monopoly!

In a strange sort of way AR is very similar - owned by Saeed with moderators appointed by Saeed. Members are signed up for free.

That is the BIG difference - membership is free and there are no commercial promotions or activities. No awards either.

Also the transparent debates on AR are so refreshing. I doubt that SCI would allow any such challenge or transparency!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be we will get slams of insects next?

Nothing is beyond the brainless idiots running SCI!

I figured you might turn into an SCI supporter since they banned Mark Sullivan from exhibiting at the convention

I was not surprised they kicked him out.
They have been warning him that his ideas are nothing but self glorifying bullshit.
SCI do not anyone to compete with their own chest thumping, INNER CIRCLE members

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Here's a radical suggestion. Book a whitetail deer hunt with Redpine Whitetails in Vanderbilt Michigan. It is an estate hunt on about 600 acres but I guarantee an enjoyable hunt with great accommodations, good food and super hunting. Best of all it is owned by Larry Higgins the current SCI president and he is always there during whitetail season. You will have a captive audience for 3 days with the main man at SCI. Ask your questions and you will get answers. Any SCI dissenters interested?
If I remember correctly, scoring things predates SCI by about 100 years or so ( Rowland & Ward).

Sir, the first problem here would be to insinuate Redpine offers deer "hunts" - its simply a deer shoot, nothing more. Mr. Higgins is a representative of the very thing most here hate about SCI - including pen raised deer shoots, three-horned snow goat awards, and insider trading, just to mention a few.

Anyone who knows me, knows I would have no problem telling him in person, exactly what I think of him and SCI - but even I would have more respect than to do so at his place of business. So no, I wouldn't be interested - in a canned deer shoot for an over supplemented 3 year old.

I haven't seen anyone here denigrating various scoring systems, or record books for that matter - frankly its a recording of history. Its the glorification of the pathetically silly awards program that's the problem. Like many here on AR, I too would qualify for plenty of SCI awards - but I'm not the one that didn't make the team back in high school and am now looking for peer recognition and back slapping to make me feel better about my competitive failures in the past. Which is done by having the deepest pockets - not the best skill / ability like most other forms of competitive recognition.

AAron: You seem to know a lot about Mr Higgins ranch without ever being there. There are no pens, the deer feed in food plots, and they are shot at age 5.5 years. Otherwise you are correct. It is an estate hunt and nothing more or less. I offered it as a way to be able to expand on your thoughts and hear input rather than hearsay from SCI. At 74 years of age with two knee replacements it is OK for me. I don't like the awards program either. I have only entered one animal at the request of my PH. So what if it motivates some people? Its entries are an income source for SCI. The ego part is something that is in an individual or not. I try to look past that and consider some of the beneficial programs SCI sponsors and the benefits we as hunters derive from their efforts. To bash SCI because of their awards system and disregard the positives is throwing the baby out with the bathwater..

There is nothing wrong with giving an award to someone who actually HUNTED a good trophy animal.

But, SCI making it the Holy Grail has produced criminals on but sides of the fence.

So called PHs whose sole job is to find big animals, raised in pens, and provide them for sick idiots to fly over and shoot them so they can have their names in a record book.

I did some research on this, and I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that so many of the top entries in the SCI record book have been obtained in this manner.

Saeed: I don't disagree this happens but I suspect it is an extremely small percentage of the entries. I guess my point is "so what". Don't participate in that aspect of SCI. There is so much more being done of a positive note that constantly bashing SCI on forums certainly does not change anything and harms the good portion of SCI. I really get upset when people say it is a collection of rich guys patting each other on the back. I guess it is a sin to be successful. I know Mr. Higgins personally and I'm sure of two things 1. He is working his ass off to produce positive results from SCI and 2. He is spending a substantial amount of his personal assets and time doing this. I told him he is nuts but it is important to him. Things are changing and we need to be more open minded. Support is much more productive than piling on for things done in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:

Things are changing and we need to be more open minded.

Please share with us the positive changes you have seen in the organization in the last three years or so . . . changes that broaden their base, get away from the perception of being an organization primarily for international big game hunters, arm hunters with information to fight the assault on hunting, move away from being an elitist organization, encouraging more young people to participate, taking the fight to the anti-hunters instead of playing defense, moving toward an organization run by paid professionals as opposed to a self-interested board, etc. I must have missed some of the positive changes taking place.

Do not get me wrong, I believe some of the work SCI does is worthwhile, particularly at the Chapter level. But I see little to no evidence that they evolving, or that they even appreciate the need to evolve, toward a sustainable organizational model in this social environment that would ever live up to the slogan, First for Hunters.

I seem to remember each time we get a new president elected, we hear that change is coming.

Hasn't happened so far.

And I can assure you there are a lot more questionable trophies entered at the top than normal.

All one has to do is look at who the provider is!

Anyone who has hinted for any periodic time will know that big trophies don't grow on trees.

I suggest a start would be to go to the SCI web site and review the "what we do" section. Try to get past the record book and award thing. That is an income generating tool that enables some of the other efforts to be funded. Quite honestly the only award that is valued by the so called "inner circle" is the Conklin award. I guess I see the glass half full not half empty.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
AAron: You seem to know a lot about Mr Higgins ranch without ever being there. There are no pens, the deer feed in food plots, and they are shot at age 5.5 years. Otherwise you are correct. It is an estate hunt and nothing more or less. I offered it as a way to be able to expand on your thoughts and hear input rather than hearsay from SCI. At 74 years of age with two knee replacements it is OK for me. I don't like the awards program either. I have only entered one animal at the request of my PH. So what if it motivates some people? Its entries are an income source for SCI. The ego part is something that is in an individual or not. I try to look past that and consider some of the beneficial programs SCI sponsors and the benefits we as hunters derive from their efforts. To bash SCI because of their awards system and disregard the positives is throwing the baby out with the bathwater..

Sir, obviously I was being sarcastic - but I expect you got my point. I totally understand your reasons for visiting such a place, I'm glad you have a place you enjoy!

Please know, my opinions DO NOT come from hearsay - rather from direct, face to face experience regarding several different issues with SCI over the past 5 years or so.

I don't bash SCI simply for the awards programs - more so for the overall handling of the entire organization itself. If they need more revenue, how about doing as others have suggested and working hard to become a more inclusive sportsmen's organization?

SCI=$$ ego