Hey Guys: Just a simple question to you all who have seen LOTS of animals shot through the years in the Green Hills of Africa.
My Grand-daughter will be six next summer (2009). I have gotten her a little H&R youth rifle in .243 Winchester. It is a sweetie. 11 1/2 pull & 20" barrell. Anyway...I am going to take her to Africa next year and shoot stuff over waterholes, off a bench. Plenty of Impala / Duiker / Nyala and the like. Question: Would you take a good shot...broadside...no movement...less than 50 yards on a Kudu or Warthog with a .243?? Just give me your best 2 cents worth. Some of you boys I really respect...so you do not have to be long winded with a reply.

I'll speak from my personal experience while leopard hunting. I shot about 12 impala and 4 warthogs with a 22 hornet for leopard bait. My PH used a 223 for cull hunts and shot his kudu for meat with a 243. Use some good bullets and you'll have no problem in my opinion when shooting carefully at water. A good friend of mine has shoulder problems and has taken a lot of game including an eland with a 250.

My son killed a kudu with a .243 using 100 grain Nosler Partitions. It was a perfect heart/lung shot.

My son, 14, was quite recoil sensitive. I offered him my Ruger No. 1 7 x 57, and he thought it too much. He dropped an impala and a warthog, one shot each, with dogcats recipe: 243 with 100 gr Partitions. No problem.

Shot placement is the deal. Anything less will leave you with a bill instead of a "bull." The game tends to be jittery & nervous at a waterhole, coach her on remaining calm and taking only those shots that are high percentage. One thing you won't have to worry about is Grandpa enjoying every second. We expect to see lots of pics when you return. Oh yeah; no slacking on premium bullets. Get the best and the heavier weights. Most .243's expand way too fast.
Good hunting,
David

In the .243, I've always found that the front half of the 100 gr. Nosler Paritiion tends to be shed even on broadside shots, resulting in no exit wound. On the other hand, I've never recovered an 85 gr. TSX...

Is the 243 registered in your name??

If I remember correctly person younger than 21 may not enter SA with a fire arm.

Just confirm this with yout outfitter.

243 is bit light for Kudu and if she wounds an animal might spoil her trip...

My 2 cents

Gentlemen: Your responses are exceptionally articulate, concise, and full of wisdom. THANK YOU.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bcolyer:

....My Grand-daughter will be six next summer (2009). I have gotten her a little H&R youth rifle in .243 Winchester......QUOTE]

That is VERY young. Make sure she shoots and hunts alot before you go. She probably loves Grandpa but may not like the killing part of hunting.

Thanks AzGuy: When she was 1 month old (thats 4 weeks) she was at her first bear tree. The amazing thing about that is her momma (my daughter) was only 4 weeks out of a c-section and was the second person at the tree. Since then she has been with me for Moose in Wyoming, Bison in New Mexico, Elk in Colorado and can name nearly every African antelope on the dead run. That little rascal is driving me crazy and I love every minute of it!!! Oh yes, she also tells everyone she helped her dad cape out a Gemsbok we took a couple weeks ago on the White Sands Missle Range in New Mexico. I have no doubt she will completely shoot me out of my pocket book. BUT...your admonition is WELL TAKEN and APPRECIATED. P.S......Plese send money! She tells folks she doesn't need Santa Clause....She has Grandpa. She got that right.

Under the conditions you set fourth the .243 will do the job...I have culled Kudu cows with my 6x45 using Barnes X 75 gr. bullets with complete success, I held my shots to 100 yards and under and was culling in fairly open country..

The only problem with the 6 mm's is they tend not to leave a good blood trail at times, thus my suggestion of stay in fairly open country...

Another good option for a kid is a 7x57 with 175 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS, it is a great killer, and recoil is very mild...

Using premium expanding bullets and with conditions you give it would be no problem. Make sure about the right shot placement and show her over and over again.

A good idea is to watch a hunting dvd pausing the dvd when you have a broadside shot and asking her to show you on the screen where she should shoot the animal.

Books and live animals look different to them.
Enjoy the trip.

bcoyler there has been a 243 in my family for the last 30 years ive taken 60% of my animals with it. ive only started reloading my 243 a year ago and its taken it to a new level.This gemsbuck was taken with factory pmp ammo

we are 3 guys in our club that shoots 243 the one guy shoots every thing with it except eland he shot a kudubull 2 years ago at 240m with a 100gr rhino it was found under the skin on the opposite side 100% weight retention and expanded 3 times the size the bull only ran 30m. it is very underated calibre in the right hands. my rifle doesn't like rhino bullets that is why im experimenting with gsc now because i use it on small game now but i will take any kudubull standing open anytime with it i get a 60mm group at 300m with it.

my suggestion for your grand daugter will be let her shoot impala, blesbuck and duiker for now leave the fancy animals for later build her confidance and give her a reason to come to africa again with grandpa

one more thing a lot of farmers doesnt alow a 243 or they limit the size of animal so clear that out with your outfitter

Will a well placed shot with a good bullet from a 243 kill a kudu? - Yes it will.....

Would I let a 6 year old child shoot a kudu with a 243? - Never in a million years.

As Rudi quite rightly says, let her shoot the smaller/less expensive/less glamerous animals now and wait till she's older, more confident and more competent before taking any of the bigger stuff.

Apart from anything else, if she takes the big stuff now and stuffs a shot up, it might put her off hunting for life and if she gets it right, she'll have less to look forward to in later years........... But for all that, it's your money, your hunt, your grand child..... and your decision.

A couple of years ago, I met some hunters in Joburg airport and one of them was very proud of his 12 (ish) year old grandson who had shot all of the Big 5 during that 10 day hunt in SA. Needless to say, it was a canned hunt, although the guys seemed either not to know that, or not to care. I actually felt sorry for the boy, because not only would he not have the Big 5 to look forward to in his future hunting career, he also hadn't done it right in the first place.

What a lucky girl to have such a supportive and interested grandfather, i am sure you guys have great times together.Not too rock the boat but sitting at a waterhole and shooting away at game is illegal in many parts of Africa and frowned upon even where it may be legal. Why not wait until she is old enough to walk and really hunt? Sitting at a waterhole is not really hunting but rather shooting.

Gentlemen: These are Wonderful points to reflect upon!! I have been to Africa SO MANY times, and for such long periods of time....and had the opportunity to be on multiple, multiple, safaris on each trip...that you think you have a clear picture of how you want to procede. Then, if you do not close your mind...BOOM...somebody says, and points out an angle that had not previously registered because you are just TOO close to the situation.
It is time to re-think this opportunity. My desire is to pour excellerant on this fire AND provide the unparalleled experience of Safari to create memories, build bonds, and fuel future plans of excitement. NOT WHACK EM' AND STACK EM'. A SHORT, short time on a waterhole will be aplenty to accomplish both, and not roll the dice on boredome or burnout. Does anything ever replace walking...when you can??
In reality...she is YOUNG...and cannot even hold the rifle up yet!!
Go ahead....keep moving my paradigms.

Listen to Jakkals's advice and make sure that the .243 is registered your name.

I'm very much thinking like Steve does. But then I also disagree with him in some manner. A free baboon or free jackall has EXACTLY the same right to a humane quick kill as a majestic kudu, or roan, or sable or elephant or whatever. It has nothing to do with the cost or "nobility" of the intended prey. It is a duty of any and every hunter to, no matter what the prey is - yes even crop-raiding varmints - to do all in his/her power to ensure a quick kill. That is the only rule of ethics that really counts in my book.

I also agree with Scott450 about sitting at a waterhole in wait for game is, in my book, not true hunting. It is done. It is legal. It may be frowned upon. I do not even necessirily consider it unethical. Bow hunters do it all the time. I've done it myself.

If on a well managed game farm any animal, in this case, a kudu bull, is on quota for removal (culling) from the concession, it has to basically got to die. Exactly where, i.e. at a water hole or up in the mountains, and how, with an arrow or .243 or .577 NE, after walking and stalkingg or from a vehicle is IMHO not so important to make a big issue out of it, provided the huter can really say that he/she TRULY EXPECTED a quick and humane kill on releasing the arrow or putting that final bit of pressure on the trigger.

If I were the PH on such a kudu by a very young girl with a .243 hunt, I would clear my intended action with the client - in this case the grandfather, beforehand: I would want to watcht the fall of the shot through my own .300 Weath Mag rifle's telescope, loaded, safety OFF and ready to squeeze if I'm not immediately 100% confident that the shot was properly placed.

I have no problem with allowing even a little gril hunt. I have no problem with allowing the use of a .243 for a clear shot on a kudu; provided that the hunter has proven at the range and otherwise the he/she is capable of keeping cool and doing it right. If a hunter has proven himself to be prone to a buck-fever attack, I have great difficulty letting him/her take a shot at any living thing: I would only allow a shot to be taken if I'm confident that the hunter "now" has his buck-fever tendency under good control. This has nothing to do with caliber, but perhaps I would be more careful to waatch for signs of buck fever if the client intends to use a marginal caliber, like a .243 for kudu.

My final word? Grandfather, watch your diet, fitness, way of life [including choince of PH on a DG hunt] so that you can reasonably expect to take your granddaughter on a 'real trophy kudu hunt' when she has graduated to be a proven proficient walk and stalk hunter!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Get the SA import permit issued in your name and the rifle zeroed with the little Partitions. Enjoy many days of teaching her where to place the bullet and how to shoot over a bench. It would also be a good idea to get her to be real comfortable when using improvised rests.

The abilities of young kids are often underestimated. My boys started hunting at very ages and they were just information sponges. If you teach them the right things in a fun way with lots of interesting opportunities to practice their skills, they will usually do it better than most. Make the most of your available time – create lasting memories.

I would not do it. At that tender age, I think she is too young. And besides that, I also think the rifle is underpowered.

Only experts, and not neophytes, are qualified to use light rifles for big game.

And most experts don't, because they have gained enough wisdom to know better.

Another factor is that what you describe is not hunting, but only shooting. No one who does what you describe has truly been big game hunting. I don't mean to be rude about this, but those are the facts as I see them.

If I were you, I would keep encouraging her. I would teach her to shoot, starting and staying with a .22 until she has learned all the basics.

I would teach her to hunt and shoot small game, such as squirrels and rabbits.

I would take her along on big game hunting trips, if she is interested. But I would wait, and not let her shoot at big game until she is ready to hunt, and able to handle a big enough rifle.

For most uf us, thinking back on our first hunting experiences may be of some value when considering what we want for our own children or any young hunter we want to initiate. I think the thrill of stalking, learning to recognize spoor, the hush and secrecy of slipping into the animal's environment undetected is a heck of lot more exciting than sitting over a waterhole, and can be done without a rifle in hand.

J/

The H&R series is great for starting kids hunting. I began my daughter with one in .22 Hornet with a youth stock. At nine years old, she killed a 90 lb. pig with it.

When I moved her up to a Handi-Rifle in 7.62x39 shooting 150 grain bullets at 2200 fps, I made sure it had a good recoil pad. (Hornady .311 diameter for a .303 British) Proudly, I can say that she hadn't missed yet and every thing has been a one shot kill.

We practice with a .17 HRM in the same model rifle which is cheap to shoot and the gun functions exactly the same and that's cool.

We're planning now to go to Africa this June for her graduation present (she asked for a safari instead of a car!) and I'm transitioning her to a bolt action in .308. While she looks funny at me after every shot, like I invented recoil, she's a minute-of-angle shooter from the bench and can shoot 5" off hand at 100 yards. Next, we'll try some off of sticks.

As to the advice above, to each his own opinion. Mine is similar to Ray's. Just download a larger caliber and/or use a muzzle break (with good ear protection, of course). However, if I were to use a .243, I'd make sure to use Barnes products to make sure I got as much penetration as possible.

Here's my huntress with a deer:

Dear Bcolyer,
pretty much everything I was going to say was well put by Shakari.
Please re-read his post, in my opinion it is seriously good advice. One thing kids don't need and that is to grow up too quickly, time is on their side. Six years old........stick with a .22rf and small furry things until she is proficient and that may take some time, the bigger stuff can wait. There is no need to be in too much of a hurry.

Gentlemen: I say Thank You again. This has become a very informative discussion...especially since I will ultimately have the responsibility to 'go..or no go', 'shoot..or no shoot'....whatever...the whole damn thing will hang around MY neck for MY Grand-daughter. It sure gives you PAUSE to think, and think again. Especially when you you thought you had it figured out right to start with????
I have looked AGAIN and AGAIN at the responses. Intresting enough, they come from France to Australia....Africa to the U.S. ..and even a friend making little-bitty circles in Africa.
One thing is for sure....I AM TAKING HER TO AFRICA....I have her COMPLETE attention NOW. My experience tells me that that will not last forever....so I will make in-roads while the time and opportunity are right. At this point she is 100% sure that Grandpa Walks on Water. To screw that up, in ANY form or fashion would be the biggest mistake...or missed opportunity of my life.
Feel free to keep those cards and letters and advice coming. The verdict is out.

I don't get the 243 on big game...for me, the "starter" calibers are 6.5x55, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 7-08 and 7x57. The 243 is a varmint caliber...fast,flat and explosive. You don't need that kind of velocity (or muzzle blast) in the bush. And most of the factory ammo has wimpy bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
I don't get the 243 on big game...for me, the "starter" calibers are 6.5x55, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 7-08 and 7x57. The 243 is a varmint caliber...fast,flat and explosive. You don't need that kind of velocity (or muzzle blast) in the bush. And most of the factory ammo has wimpy bullets.

I've hunted with a .243 for years of PA whitetail. Every one that I've shot died with a single shot within 60 yards of being shot. That being said, they never left a drop of blood. To fix that problem, I just bought a 358 Win and will start using it this year. I suspect I'll start getting a blood trail.

quote:

I have been to Africa SO MANY times, and for such long periods of time....and had the opportunity to be on multiple, multiple, safaris on each trip...

bcoyler
This is something about you that most people replying to your question don't know. However, since I did spend some time in Zimbabwe with you, I know how you feel about Africa, and how much time you have spent in Africa. I also know how you feel about your granddaughter.

There have been some very good responses here to your question. Many of these responses would apply more to a "first timer" to Africa rather than to someone with your experience in Africa.

I've known quite a few hunters that have used small calibers on big game: .22-250's, .220 swift's, and .243's on elk and American Buffalo, and I had a Eskimo guide in the Northwest Territories that once killed a Polar Bear with one .223 bullet. But these were seasoned hunters and excellent marksmen.

Again, I know how you feel about your granddaughter, but my advice would be not to push her too fast. Spend a few more years building her confidence with her .243 on varmints, take her hiking and camping and maybe even on hunts with you in New Mexico. Build her love for the outdoors but don't push her too fast. She still needs to be a little girl.

And remember, she still has an invitation for a Montana Antelope hunt when she turns 12.

Hello BuffyBr !!!! Sorry brother...I had lost your phone number. I am trying to find it. If you do not hear from me tonight, please send me a PM with you phone #. I'll call you.
Thanks for your input on my Grand-daughter. I am working hard here to make the best decision possible!! I was in Zim, Bots, Zambia, Namibia & SA for nearly 4 months this past hunting season. We had a FINE LARGE TIME!
Chased ele around for over a month, and fished the upper part of the Zambezi for 3 weeks.
If I truly had my druthers....I'd like to take little britches ele hunting with me, but man, ain't no way she can walk those kind of miles for at least 5-6 years....although her momma was doing it when she was 10 years old, and now she grinds my butt in the dirt.
At this point and time, I am not going back to Africa this summer. Granddaughter is still to little to go, and it will break her heart if I head off again without her. I guess it will be the first time since 94' that I've not spent some part of the season in the bush.
Maybe I'll just forgo hunting her altogether on her first trip, and go to the far west side of Serengeti and play....IF I CAN GET AWAY FROM THE DAMN TOURIST.
But MAN....this child wants to hunt, that is ALL she talks about...Hunting and PRINCESS BARBIE! And you should see her shoot her .22 She will absolutely shoot your eye out @ 100 yards. What is her passion like for hunting in Africa.....How many five year olds can name nearly every country, lake and major river in East AND Southern Africa?

/

All im saying is take her with and let her take small game. if we stimulate our kids with the right things (hunting ,fishing,outdoors,sport ect.)they learn that there is more in life than tv,playstation and computers. ive seen that kids that is active is less likely to get involved in drugs because life has more value to them. its only my opinion and good to see grandpas with such passion for their grandkids

I have just returned from Namibia and am trying to adjust to the time zone difference that my brain and body is going through so my thinking is a bit fuzzy right now.

Here's a pic of my 11 year old son's springbok that he took about a week ago with a Remington Model Seven .308 Win at about 80 yards. One shot entering the front left shoulder as it began to quarter away, exiting through the neck, dropped it in its tracks with no followup shot required.



My son, Rizal, teeth in braces, proudly grinning, holding his Bronze Medal Springbok taken in Namibia's Kalahari, March 18, 2008.

Namibiahunter

quote:

Originally posted by bcolyer:
Hey Guys: Just a simple question to you all who have seen LOTS of animals shot through the years in the Green Hills of Africa.
My Grand-daughter will be six next summer (2009). I have gotten her a little H&R youth rifle in .243 Winchester. It is a sweetie. 11 1/2 pull & 20" barrell. Anyway...I am going to take her to Africa next year and shoot stuff over waterholes, off a bench. Plenty of Impala / Duiker / Nyala and the like. Question: Would you take a good shot...broadside...no movement...less than 50 yards on a Kudu or Warthog with a .243?? Just give me your best 2 cents worth. Some of you boys I really respect...so you do not have to be long winded with a reply.

If it were I, I would just follow through with your plan and not worry about others advice.

I don't know what all the fuss is about.

If the kid can shoot well enough, she should have absolutely no problems whatsoever.

Age has nothing to do with shooting ability.

My 5 1/2 year old daughter beat every kid last weekend, and some were as old as 12.

In fact, I have seen grown men who have no business firing at animals.

bcolyer

I have a 7 y.o. son who is also expecting his first hunt this season. I am also faced with a dilema because fundamentaly I absolutely agree with Steve "Shakari" Robinson's philosophy on this issue.

My son has done everything I have asked of him and more in terms of preparation. He has walked the walk the last two seasons(Many miles on a severly burned foot) He identifies and knows the habits of all the species. He understands the concepts of conservation and utilisation.

But somehow I still feel he's too young for even a relatively minor antelope. I just don't think he's shot enough with a catty, pellet gun or .22 and he is rushing a part of his life.

The modern way makes it common for youngsters to shoot early, and by my kid mixing with these kids there becomes an expectation for mine to do the same. It's a no win situation. I have mates who's kids have shot pretty major stuff, and the kids seem just too damn casual about it as far as I'm concerned.

This is you and your grandaughter's dream, and you cannot turn back now, but I suggest you keep it simple and small; an impala or duiker. Perhaps a warthog. Leave something special for next time......and enjoy, whatever the outcome.

Gentlemen: When I stand in Church today with my Granddaughter and sing..."Up from the Grave He Arose"...I will then take my seat in the pew and ponder...."Down to the dirt he Ka-plopped".
We all have much to be thankful for this day.
Happy Easter.

bcoyler
I would stick with your original plans. You obviously are wise enough to know if she can handle the shots she will be taking. Does anyone think that you would take her there without plenty of practice? You, with your experience, will know better than anyone what she can handle.

She is one lucky girl and may not fully realize that until later in life. Enjoy your trip!