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I am glad to see that everyone that has taken an elephant, seen an elephant in the wild or in a zoo, watch an elephant on TV, or even knows how to spell elephant has weighed in on this most important subject. BTW, only my posts are valid, the rest are bullshit!  | |||
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For the purposes of this discussion, lets say it is a first time elephant hunter guided by a competant professional hunter who is armed with at least a .416. And, the hunter only owns a 375 H&H and can barely afford the hunt in the first place. | |||
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So what�s being said here is that a bad shot by a large caliber is better than a bad shot by a smaller caliber? Again, unless the caliber in question has enough energy to deflect the momentum of a charging whatever and literally force the charging animal "off course"... it just ain�t so. Let's take the minimum reference used above for a PH to sort things out - the "416+" and assume we're talking about a 416 Rigby. I can't see how the difference in .041" (.375 vs .416) of bullet diameter and less than 700ft/lbs of energy (4070 for 375 & 4700 for .416 ((Per Kynoch))) makes any difference in a marginal good shot vs. a marginal bad shot. But let's follow that argument... By that logic (that a 416 is a better "stopper" than a .375), we all have to agree that a shot by a 375, with two 22-magnum shots fired simultaneously is equally as effective as a 416 rigby -regardless of placement. The two 22 mag shots sound like pissing in the wind when all else is considered, but they do add an additional 100grains of bullet weight and an additional 700 ft/lbs of energy (22mag delivers 50gr bullet each with a muzzle energy of 328ft/lbs - Remington) have any real influence on the outcome or increase your odds of �Stopping� the charge. BUT if we consider only the ballistic performance, then the equation above clearly suggests that the two comparisons are completely equal. That�s what perpetuates this debate... someone believes that a marginal shot by a 375 would have been a "stopping shot" with a larger bore. Again, we're back to what it takes to STOP one. By the same token of the PH, lion & 470 story, my PH shot a charging buff and elephant - at 6 & 8 paces, respectively - with a .375 last year... within a time frame of 3 days. Both are on video. Well placed shots killed them both... at that range (Stopping Range) the bullet would have been equally as effective had it been .338 diameter. It was the shot placement that STOPPED the animals. | |||
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Quote: Dang Will, not everyone has weighed in yet. But I will now - Personally, I'd use a .45-70 and lead bullets....  This place is so funny. Brent | |||
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Quote: It's clearly not about whose actually shot one  it's about the "Theoretical" merrits of a "Stopper!" | |||
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NG, the question was in regards to elephant, not overall "stopping power". And of course a good shot is better then a bad one, and nowhere has it been said that a larger bullet will turn a marginal shot into a good one. I am talking about a "greater margin for error", not a "magical stopping caliber". Nobody is picking on the .375, it is a great all around cartridges. But, I think there are better for elephant. You are welcome to your opinion however you justify it. PS: Will, you know you are luvin this! | |||
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Well Ive seen em on tv and Ive seen em in the wild, Ive even seen em at the zoo. When you get reeeeel close to em any rifle seem small but I did kill mine with a .375. He didnt go far but he did go fast and Im reeeel happy he went the other way. | |||
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Come on! You guys can't stop now? I just refilled my popcorn and popped a bottle of Puilly Fume..... Beats the hell out of watching reality t.v. Will you should host your own talk show on elephant hunting with the .375 some day. It will be a block buster  I am suprised that a lot of posters have not participated yet; Hey Ray! gone huntin? Saeed, Mac, Judge what's up? happy hunting! | |||
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CC, You have a good point, as to the suitability of a .375 H&H if one was hunting by themselves rather than with a PH. You ain't going to find any PHs carrying .375's in elephant country.  I don't think in the old days anyone really hunted by themselves as they always had trackers, etc., even when they stated it like "I went out in the afternoon by myself." But if I were out by "myself" I would want all the gun I could carry. I've settled on the 416 just because I can't handle the weight and/or recoil of the Lott. If I were a kid again, it would be back to the Lott for sure, whether by myself or with a PH. CZ is bringing out a relatively light version in the .450 Rigby, so I may change my mind again! In all seriousness, though, the .375 is an adequate gun but I sure as hell would not consider it as enough gun. | |||
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Quote: Hmm.. I did not get any answers on this one. Maybe it is not of vital importance but my thought was just to kill the part with the "375 brainshot on ele..." So I ask you once more: Is a 30-06 capable to reach the brain on ele from every angle? I'm not saying that I would choose a 30-06 if I would go after ele. I would pick a Lott or a 450 Rigby but I am assuming that with a premium fmj bullet everything ower a 06 will do the job as long as you actually hit the brain? If that is the case we can focus this thread only on: "is the 375 marginal for bodyshots on ele"? I may be totally wrong here, but it is up to you to correct me, I'm no expert in this field. /Johan | |||
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If as many elephants were shot as are talked about around here we'ed be out of elephants  For a client a 375 is fine. If the shit hits the fan it aint enough, I speak from personal experience. The hot 450's are needed to stop an elephant. I've seen the 375 fall short in that spot. Since there is a reasonable expectation that a client can shoot a 375(or he shouldnt be elephant hunting period) its the perfect caliber because the probability of a good shot is higher than with a hot 450 where he may flinch etc. So it makes sense to have the 375/450 combo for the client/PH. Enough said. This aint a 45/70 topic I hope. There isnt a one gun solution or a better gun for the job because of the nature of the hunt. Its like going to Africa you need your car to get to the airport. Then a jet to get to Africa. It makes sense to use both pieces of equipment to do the job. You cant drive to Africa and landind a 747 at home isnt reasonable. So dont try and have a one gun solution for elephant hunting it takes 2 guns depending on what happens during the hunt. | |||
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Will Quote: I was not going to get involved but I do not want to be the only "one elephant hunt expert" who failed to put in my two cents. Having killed one Elephant in "open" country with a 375 I can say I would be happy to hunt them alone with no back-up(in open country) using the 375. Having said that, in the jess or in the rainforest where unprovoked charges are a real possiblity I would carry a 458 or larger weather I had someone backing me or not. The same applies to following up wounded elephant. Jason | |||
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Hey Jason, I was wondering if you were going to resolutely resist the temptation.  You have now finally admitted in print the .375 MAY not be enough. I am making progress! See what trouble you can get into. | |||
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Bwanamich, Saeed and I arn't about to get in this fiasco of an arguement...We KNOW we can kill an elephant with a .375....we shoot better n Will!   | |||
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Quote:Quote: No, Abosuletly not - a 30-06 220gr would be completely inadequate in reaching the brain of an elephant WD Bell aka Karamojo Bell wrote in his book "The Three Elephant I Killed During My Career" that when hunting with a PH - used only a 45+ caliber with 500 gr Super-Premium bullets (He loaded his own and preferred Barnes Solids, but wasn't above using the vastly inferior Woodleigh in a pinch) .When hunting alone however, he felt completely undergunned with anything less than a 600 nitro and the same selection of chemically bonded softs or solid copper/zinc alloy solids. | |||
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new_guy, Were you originally looking for information or for an argument? | |||
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NG, I am glad to see you have now seen the light. There is no way to kill anything without using cup point homogeneous metal solids with at least four of those little ringy things around them. | |||
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Guys, A long time ago SBT asked basically if his 375 would do the trick for elephant when he hunted them accompanied by a competent PH. Sounds like he doesn't really need a larger rifle. If SBT doesn't need a new and larger rifle perhaps he now has enough money to book that hunt we talked about. This topic really is a hoot! Regards, Mark | |||
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Well I've seen his recommendation regarding the 375 in writing and he told me personally--in his native language-- so there was no chance of a language problem (he's very well-spoken in english BTW). He does however, prefer the 416 Rigby, but I suppose for some of you that is also too light a caliber. No doubt that caliber--like cup size, bigger is better,but there is a thin line between the sublime and the ridiculous......jorge | |||
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Okay, I can't resist and will probably regret it, and I reserve the right to delete this with a smiley-face... Very clever!!! But how dare you interject common sense logic into this emotionally-charged thread!!! Probably why the .375 is "good enough" in many cases. But it is true - use what you got! Just make sure he hunts in the open and uses a mono! | |||
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Quote: Kind of reminds me of a movie I saw the other day: "Super-Size Me"! The one about McDonalds, fast food and obesity. Apparently, bigger isn't necessarily always better! Erik D. | |||
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No, no, no � I wasn�t seeking an argument (not in the vindictive sense of the term.) I assure you all - my intentions were not malicious, and I promise I�m not Ass_Clown re-registered under a different name. I respect the opinions and experience of the collective group, but if asking us to consider contrary opinions and debate them (with facts, statistics & prior experience) is an argument (in the academic sense) then� Yes, I was challenging some of the hype, marketing nomenclature and general miraculous, �magnum� factor proportionally associated with calibers as they generally increase in size. Let�s not take this too seriously; it was only a challenge to the forum to consider all perspectives on the subject. Shouldn�t we all try and learn something from these volleys? | |||
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You can shoot them in the jess but you have to have a couple more of those ringy things in the thick stuff. | |||
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Will Quote: If you can pick your shot the 375 is all you will ever need. In the thick stuff or with a wounded elephant you can't pick your shots so you better "go big". A 416 is better than a 375 but the 458 seems better still. Yes I know You told me so . Jason | |||
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If I was concerned about using a 375 H&H for elephant which I am not, then my next choice would be one of the big 500s or the 577...Confidence truly is, after all, a big factor in hunting dangerous game...I believe this. | |||
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Will someone remind of what the original question was? | |||
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Ray, Saeed and others who have shot elephants with the .375, A few questions in an attempt to gather both subjective and objective data: 1. How many elephants have you shot with the .375, and how did they react? 2. Were the shots head shots or body shots? 3. Did the elephants take longer to die with a .375 than the elephants you shot with larger calibers? 4. What was the depth of penetration that the .375 achieved in head and body shots in elephant? Thanks. | |||
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John, As you can see I tried to bring this back to the original question but failed miserably. Bill C, I'm afraid "Common sense logic" has nothing to do with AR. Regards, Mark | |||
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500 grs. I have shot two with a 375 including a very big 87 pounder that hosts my good buffalo head on each side...but I have observed quit a number of elephants shot with a 375, probably more than with any other caliber...I find the penetration to be excellent and perhaps more than any other caliber that I have seen used Perhaps, and I find they expire quite quickly with heart shots. I have not been able to see a lot of difference when things are right....The advent of monolithic solids, and flat nose monolithics has greatly increased its desirability... However, in a charge stopping position, I am sure bigger is better if you shoot them well, but bigger calibers are no substitute for a well placed shot....I feel a PH should have a bigger bore... Like I said if a bigger bore gives one more confidence then he should surly use one, if he can shoot it well, if not then the 375 is a better choice, but again only if he can shoot it. I shoot the 416 and 404 for this reason, but I most will always take my 375 to Africa..I like to hunt with my 470 but have not shot elephant with it, and probably won't as the next elephant I shoot will be a 100 pounder or nothing, and thats not likely to happen as they are no longer affordable to me, even at my greatly discounted opertunities. I think a lot of folks put way to much faith in the size of the bullet, its their teddy bear, blankie, nite-nite,or just security blanket to liberals, they probably were thumb suckers in their early years or shunned by their fathers... | |||
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Ray, do you recall how deeply the .375 penetrated on head and body shots on elephant? I have not seen it in action on elephant myself. | |||
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500, No, I can't answer that one, it wasn't a consideration back then, as the 375 was definatly the best thing going as the big doubles were without ammo and 375s only competitor was the 458 Win, and it was suffering a terrible reputation then. Africa was only in reach of the very afluent..I have not shot enough elephant to come to any real conclusive judgments, but do have some half a$$ed opinnions. About the best I can do is tell you that I have seen only one instance where a 375 exited a body shot, but no heavy bones were hit, still that is quite a feat I think..I can vouch that the monolithics penetrate better than jacketed solids most of the time, but not always. I have been told by Johan Calitz that 375s are known to completely pass through an elephants skull and on ocassion have killed another elephant. Finn Aagard also related this to me and he had killed quit a number of elephant with the .375. I have been told of .375 passing through a head and coming to rest in the heavy neck muscles and my penetration tests seem to varify that the 375 has a lot of penetration and that elephants seem to die pretty quickly from a heart shot, about like any other animal. Today as Americans, and this even applies to 95% percent of today African PHs, our experience is very limited on shooting elephants, and I doubt if there is an expert elephant hunter around here with the exception of perhaps Ganyana...so its all conjecture and good fun conversation on our part, but nothing that I take too seriously. My only real opinnion that I believe to be true is that all animals that are shot cleaning with properly constructed bullets that are properly placed seem die very quickly, and if you vari from that scenario, then caliber makes little difference.... Remove the elephant from this thread and make it buffalo, then I can carry on a real conversation with anyone...otherwise your asking the wrong guy! | |||
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500 grains, If I recall correctly I watched both videos of Saeed's hunt and that of EricLV, and I recall both had head shots with a 375/375/404 and each had fully penetrated the head, I vaguely recall the bullets that where used but I would pose those questions to either one of them. It appears that the smaller cross section with high sectional density allows fairly deep penetration again it would depend on the integrity of the bullet retaining its shape to accomplish this. | |||
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