I'd like to hear from those that have experience, or can relate actual stories, about using a 375 H&H on elephants. Here is an article to start the discussion: http://www.african-hunter.com/375_on_elephant.htm

In Capsticks video on ele hunting they shoot four bulls.....two with a .375 H&H and solids and both were frontal brain shots.....both were instantaneous drops.

Capstick must have come back from the dead. I sure don't remember that.

The video was filmed in the Caprivi Strip...the name Gordon Kundle comes to mind as does a German named Volker...the hunter was Ken Wilson and I first saw the video before 1996....man what a mamory!!!



It was part of a video series "sportsmen on film"



In that movie Capstick uses his Champlin Thumbhorst .470 NE double to hit one bull four times to the body and an insurance shot and another guy from California shoots another bull four times with his "four-five-eight" and it runs off and falls about 200 yards away.

Yeah, the Sportmans on Film stuff.

Volker Grellman

For brain shots the 375 is as good as anything else...For body shots it seems to me it kills elephants as well as anything else...

Johan Calitz and I discussed the 375 for elephants some years ago and Johan said that for someone that can shoot the 375 is as good an elephant caliber as anything else..I agree with this..

The 375 has penetration as good as any caliber and more than most..I don't buy off on bullets of big size knocking out elephants unless the scrape the brain, regardless of what some claim, some disagree and some agree, depends on who you ask...I do believe the really big bores may turn an elephant as they do deliver a bigger whack to the nog.

I prefer the 40 calibers, but I believe the 375 capable of killing efficiently any animal on earth, it has never let me down if I hit the spot...

The advent of super premium bullets, 350 gr. Bullets by Woodleigh, monolithic and half monolithic bullets have made the .375 a more capable caliber than ever and by a good deal.

This old girl will be around for a long time. I will always have one in my gun cabinet and I will use it from time to time, just to reinstall my faith in it once again...

Those that condem it, probably have not used it. Those that have used it and condem it probably can't shoot for shit.

SBT,
I shot my Elephant with a 375H&H,300gr TB sledgehammer. One frontal shot went through the brain and out the back.

Jerry,

We all know what a remarkable marksman you are don't we? Not only that but you seem to really shine with borrowed rifles.

Later,

Mark

Yeah right! I was actually shooting over that caribou on purpose so he would turn and give me a better look at him.

In 1996 I shot a "problem" bull elephant with a 375H&H. It was in the Caprivi Strip on Volkler Grellman's concession. The P.H. was Danny Bartlett. Used some borrowed PMP full metal jacket ammo. It was a broadside brain shot taken at about 40 yards and the elephant collapsed just like it was suppose to.

Yep, the 375H&H will do it. I've since had some experience with the 375H&H on buffalo that makes me think a 416 Rem Mag (or bigger IF you can handle it) would be a better choice.

I agree. I truly believe that a buffalo charge is harder to stop than an elephant. You might be able to turn an elephant, but I believe that the only thing that will stop a buff once he comes your way, is death; yours or his.

Geronimo

Ive only shot one elephant as of yet. .375 with 300 grain woodleigh solids. First shot at about eighty yards in the armpit and broke the offside shoulder. Second shot as the animal turned entered just behind the ribcadge and stopped about three inches inside the heart. Average size bull with 49 pounds to a side went 20 yards fell down, got up went 60 yards before expiring. First shot got both lungs, second got the heart with a total of about five feet of penetration. I think the key word here is penetration. The hole is 1/4 inch smaller than a 40 but a hole in the heart is a hole in the heart. I shoot this rifle all the time and feel very good about taking shots others may pass on because they dont shoot their big guns enough. Accuracy and penetration are a hard combination to beat. The shoulder was probably just cracked but when he put weight on it broke. Both bullets were recovered intact.

Shot 1st Elephant with 375 with 300gr Woodleigh's.
Frontal brain shot. Poorly placed, He sat down promptly got up and I shot for shoulder and again shot too high,(I have since thought because of high grass). Upshot is that he crossed the boundary into park and we couldn't follow. Decided then to get 470.Have taken one with it and one with 416 Rigby. I have 5 375's so like them very much. I would probably not use them again on Elephant, but that is just because I have other heavier rifles.

I never shot an elephant with a .375, but the owner of a well known safari co. in BOTS told me that he recommends clients bring a .40, .458 or .470 because the problems they have had on elephants have been primarily with the .375.

I also think that to some extent we're missing the point here. Surely we should be talking about a particular combination of bullet design and calibre, rather than just calibre alone.

My preference for bullet for Elephant is a good quality mono solid rather than a FMJ solid of any description (I'm talking bolt action rifles here, so please will the double owners not attack me! )

I've seen a lot of FMJ distort on Buffalo & Hippo etc, let along on Mr Bigears which demands a far greater penetration........but I've never seen a good name mono solid change shape.

I'm not suggesting that all FMJs are useless and I'm sure that many posters here will say "well I shot my Elephant with a so & so FMJ and it didn't distort"......but that's not my point. My point is that a mono is less liable to fail than an FMJ.

Jeff Cooper said that most of the times the 375 can do the work most of the times but not always,im a big fan of the 375 i killed hundreds of bufalos and some red satgs with it but i wll not use it on elephants ,itsn a sttoper for a charge i prefer a 458 lott or a 505gibbs or even a 416 rigby.i killed water bufalos with a 308 or with a 44magnum revolver but i wouldnt said that was adecuate.juan

To me this sounds suspiciously like the "The 270 for Elk" argument. I think that you'll hear from both sides of the issue just not as loudly because there are so few people with the experience to comment on it.

Fjold,

That pretty much covers it.

There is no way one can compare 4200 ft-lbs of a .375 with 5100 ft-lbs from a 416 or 470 or etc.

But if you want to, then a 9.3x62 at 3800 ft-lbs is good enough, then a ......is good enough, then a 7x57 is good enough, then a .... is good enough, then a .22 LR is good enough.

I concur that the bigger the better argument is usually better if you can handle both equally. Sounds like most of us started with a .375 then moved up. The idea behind solids is you must know the animals anatomy and you must be able to reach the sweet spot from the angle your shooting from. Whether its the shoulder or the brain if you miss you miss. Wally Johnson told a ph that I hunted with once that he never lost a shoulder shot elephant but lost several that were near brain shots. Thats what worked for him but most of us dont get that many chances to screw up.

The tone of your post, Bill C, is with all due respect - a little condecending. But I'll answer you implied question in saying my name is Chris, i live in dallas, have a wife, no kids and work in the technology industry - if that's what you were wanted to know in wondering who i am.

I have no allegiance to the 375. Yes, i own a few, a couple in doubles, but i also own a 470. so the debate is not about my personal prefrence.

the forum started out looking for opinions on 375 for elephant - which turned quickly to suggestions on how marginal it was, which led to the subject how much better one caliber is than another. If you'll read my earlier post, i only mentioned that others look to this forum for advice, and all-too-often it appears that opinions sometimes outweigh the logic behind them.

Anyway, I can tell that i've stepped on your toes, will drop the debate, and i'll back off.

over...

Surely the topic of discussion here is Can a .375 H&H be used to kill an elephant?........yes it can, (assuming good bullet choice) but if the question was Is it a good chargestopper for Elephant? ....my opinion is NO (not even with the best bullet choice)......which is why I use a .500 Jeffrey. .375 H&H is a great client calibre, but I don't think it's more than that.

Sorry Shakari, I'm not picking on you, but here this forum goes again on this "charge stopping" label for cartridges.



My frustration is that there are a lot of people out there reading this (that never join in) that are led to believe there is such a thing as a "Charge-stopping" caliber, and end up toting "9000-whiz-bang-nitro-stoppers" that feel a false sense of security based on the bore size or printed ballistics of the caliber they are carrying.



Again, I don't want to pick a fight here, but I firmly believe that we should consider the following facts (as we all ((me too)) seem to forget the "physics" involved in this equation) and remember what the objective really is - as examples to others who read and trust the opinions on this forum.



There are two ways to STOP a charging animal:

1) break a bone (spine included) that immobilizes the animal or shuts down its ability for the muscles to communicate with the brain.

2) death from oxygen deprivation of the brain (that's the only way anything things dies.)



We've all seen (in videos) buffs shot with a 500, 577 in the shoulder and it doesn't "bowl them over" when they are standing still... so it surely can't do that if they are just "hit" while charging.



On the other end, I've seen a buffalo shot in the back of the head at point-blank range with a .223 fmj. (it was stuck in a mud-hole and had been for several days) and the .223 did the job instantly... why? oxygen deprivation of the brain, but that doesn't mean a .223 is a caliber that should be used in a charge. I use that example to illustrate that velocity, muzzle energy, etc... can be used to make a "theoretical" case from either extrememe perspective.



We can further pick this apart to say that IF a bullet is close enough to the brain of an elephant that it can stun or knock the elephant unconcious, but that's not the argument here.



The point is that I've yet to read or hear of a caliber (a legal sporting caliber) capable of stopping a charging buffalo or elephant dead in its tracks and suddenly catapaulting it backwards on its arse like a wil-e-coyote cartoon.



Unfortunatley, that's the image portrayed and the sense of security implied when we lablel certain calibers as "stopping calibers."



The rule is shoot the biggest caliber you can accurately shoot. A "Good Stopping Caliber" is whatever you can shoot well enough - with a bullet well made enough - to accomplish #1 or #2 above.



I respect your and others' opinions on this forum, but ask that we be more "open minded" for other readers in giving them solid, straight-forward advice.

Uh, there are stoppers but no one could shoot them, like a 50 mm canon.

An alternative is to be a perfect-shot hunter, which I haven't found or witnessed or heard of yet.

Another alternative is to use a bigger gun, one more likely to turn or disable an animal than a .375.

I agree with this post.

Its quite obvious a brain/cns hit is prefered , with shoulder bone damage being secondary, as both will stop a charge, but what is not understood, or rather admitted I tend to think, is any bullet that hits these targets will suffice, with regard to the cartride limitation by law.
Some folks argue that a 40 calibur or higher is the only thing that will do the job, as if a quality 366/375 diamter bullet would bounce off! A bullet needs only to penetrate to the brain/cns to stop a charge, no further (A shoulder hit may immobilize, but not necessary kill out-right). Damage is damage, dead is dead. A slightly bigger hole in the brain is not going to produce a deader animal!
Shot placement, with a quality bullet, from a 375, will do fine.
I'm sure a 40-plus calibur makes some feel extra comfort concerning the mere thought of being mauled/gored/stomped/etc., but the results of a brain/cns hit is the same no matter what calibur/cartridge is being used. ~~~Suluuq

quote:

We can further pick this apart to say that IF a bullet is close enough to the brain of an elephant that it can stun or knock the elephant unconcious, but that's not the argument here.

No offence New Guy, but I think this is a part of the "discussion" - a major part. Of course a .375 will work great on a perfect brain shot.

But...not every shot is going to be perfect, and one may not always be shooting at their primary target. Plan for the worst, and it's my feeling a "near miss" with a .40 and above may save your life...or at least give you another few seconds to try it again.

That .375 will be feeling pretty small after a few days of dancing with the ele in the jess. But hey, to each their own.

Remember the question was in regards to ELEPHANT

PS: Where did my previous post go?

I agree, incapacitation can only occur if one of two things occur, structural damage has occurred preventing the animal from doing what it was doing by breaking the right bones or bones or interrupting the ability to control the body (i.e.: spinal shot, disruption of the central nervous system which includes the brain shot. Death occurs as a result of lack of blood to the brain which depends on how well oxygenated the blood was at the time of the shot, therefore if an animal is in a excited state such as fight or flight syndrome in which the blood is highly enriched with adrenaline and oxygen the animal will have the ability to do whatever the mind set was unless the ability to control the muscle reflexes is severely interrupted or structural damage occurs.
This give rise to the need for large caliber deep penetrating bullet/rifle combination which can penetrate sufficiently increasing the odds of physical incapacitation by structural or central nervous system disruption.
Head shots ar great, however the head moves faster than the body and the body is a much bigger target where more vital organs are situated thereby increasing the probability of incapacitating shots, think about it how many shooters cab hit a 4" target at 100 yds offhand when their heart and breathe rate is elevated especially if the the target is moving, the chest area would be a better choice, again assuming this animal is not hell bent on making a meadow muffin out of you and he is only 15 meters awa

First of all - I have never hunted elephants.



But...



I can not really understand this 375 on elephant debate. As long as we are talking brain shots, wouldn't a 30-06 with a premium 200gr fmj do the job? This is assuming that you hit anywhere IN the brain and that the bullet is not deforming. Are there some angles for the brain shot on ele that the 200gr. 30-06 wouldn't cope with?



I CAN understand that the 375 is marginal on the boiler room shot though..



I'm not saying that this is a recommendation, just a thought...



Regards

/Johan

Can a 30-06 with the right bullet kill an elephant, of course many have been killed with lesser guns but is it ethical? As has been said numerous times marksmanship means many things to many people, one needs to evaluate their abilities, then take high probability shots because of what is called "MURPHY"S LAW", that is what can go wrong will.
Can a charging elephant be stopped with a hit anywhere...yes you will need a land cannon to accomplish that and that is where the trade off begins. Just how much gun can you handle accurately? If that is a 577 or a 375 than that is the gun, obviously you will need to be a bettermarksman with the smaller but it will accompolish the same, but what good is the gun if it is to much to handle.
I shot pistol matches for several years and even tho I intended every shot to hit the X ring many didn't,and when movement of anytype occurred either by me or the target the X's became fewer, imagine shooting trap or sheet with a rifle especially a hard recoiling rifle when you needed to shoot doubles? hpw many hits would you expect..not many if any at all I suspect

Newguy,

I wasn't suggesting that a bigger calibre will take an Elephant off it's feet.......I don't know where you got that idea from......I was suggesting that a .375 H&H (with the correct bullet) is an adequate calibre for a client to use to kill an Elephant whether it's a brain shot or an engine room shot.

I was also suggesting that from MY personal experience when it comes to a charge, a larger calibre has more instant effect (or stopping power)than a smaller calibre.....even assuming the same rough POI. Of course, it all depends on the shooter being able to shoot his rifle confidently and competently, but assuming those parameters, a 416 is better than a 375 and a 500 is better than a 416 and so on.

I don't really see what bearing your comment about shooting a buff in the back of the head has though. Take a look at a Buff skull and you'll notice that the vast majority of the bone is at the front and is there to protect the brain from frontal damage. The back of the skull is relatively thin in comparison.

As I said before, I think the .375 H&H is a perfectly adequate calibre for clients to use on Elephant, but IMO it's not enough gun for a PH to use in an Elephant area....in fact, I would even go as far as to say that it's bloody irresponsible for a PH to use a .375 H&H in any DG area.

There's pleny of game that have been shot, and not killed enough, but I've never come across an animal that has been killed too much ......as RR said, "Use Enough Gun" and that rule is as true today as it was when he wrote it all those years ago.

There's a BIG difference between what calibre a client can/should use to shoot an Elephant and what calibre a PH should use when hunting in a DG area.

If the .375 is what you handle best than that is absolutly what you should use!!

Steve, I agree with your points, and again, wasn't looking to stir up a heated debate by squashing anyone's input. Those were not my intentions. To the point of �bowling over an elephant� � that�s just what comes to mind as the embellishing term �STOPPING caliber� is applied.



My suggestion to us all was to be careful what we label as (or suggest as) magic cartridges that are capable of "Stopping" charging game, and reinforce the value of being able to shoot well - over the actual caliber chosen to do the shooting.



Each situation is different and there are as many theoretical differences and variables out there are there are opinions on this matter � that�s what makes these forums interesting and enables our opinions/experience to challenges opinions of others and ourselves. Ideally, we all learn more and develop �best-business� practices from the overall experience.



We (this forum) just seem to end up debating the best �stopping� caliber once every week or so, and I think it�s important to those that are here looking for opinions understand that they should shoot the biggest gun they can� the best they can.



That's it... and I believe that's a responsible message for the new shooter (and old shooter alike) to focus on what they can shoot well and not let ballistics or magical perceptions of cartridge performance end them up over-gunned with such a large caliber that they can't handle it.



The point of the 223 was just to illustrate a theoretical "extreme" as compared to the truly large bores.



Good hunting, and thanks for your reply.

Tony Sanchez-Arino recommends the 375 H&H for elephant. Being that he's killes in the thousands, I think his advice pretty well covers it. jorge

From the H&H website (!): "Tony Sanchez-Arino, the last of the great elephant hunters, wrote of the .375 in his book On The Trail of the African Elephant, published in 1987, that "this is unquestionably the most popular calibre in Africa and is almost the standard rifle for every hunter bound for Africa in search of big game." I don't know that "popular" translates to "recommended".

Last thought...whatever advantage the .375 has in "usability" (and it does have an advantage) is lost when you are talking 20-yards and closing. At this point, site acquisition, stock fit, etc are key. For elephant - absolutely use what you know intimately, and if it is just a .375, that's fine. The PH will [probably] be there with his .416+ to sort things out if anything bad happens, probably.

Well, Tony must be full of it because he told me he wouldn't be caught dead using a .375 H&H.

He uses a 416 and a 500 jeffery.

Maybe the question ought to stipulate whether the .375H&H-armed elephant hunter is all alone or whether he has another hunter along with him, this one armed and fully competent with, say, a .505 Gibbs or a .458 Lott.

Gentlemen,

Throughout the history of hunting, Big & DGM, there is no Cal that killed as much and all over the world than the 375 H&H � Elephant and Cape buffalo included. The .375 H&H and shot placement will cleanly kill anything on the planet.

But Yeah shot placement with Cal .822 super woozy maxi mag 3 shots 1 in the gut 1 in the butt and another one in the big toe, animal disappears and dies a long and painful death.

Talking about stopping power at a distance 10 to 15 yard from a charging Elephant bull, you will have more chance to survive that event with stepping aside.

There is no way one can compare 4200 ft-lbs of a .375 with 5100 ft-lbs from a 416 or 470 or etc.

I disagree with the above statement.

Hornady: .375 H&H, 300 gr. FMJ-RN - 2705/4873 ft-lbs

Roland < !--color-->

Talking about stopping power at a distance 10 to 15 yard from a charging Elephant bull, you will have more chance to survive that event with stepping aside.

You mean a rhino, don't you?