I recall that several years ago, African Hunter magazine did an article DGRs used by professional hunter candidates in Zimbabwe. In that article, they pretty much trashed the Ruger RSM in .458 Lott because of feeding problems.

My problem is that I really, really like the Ruger RSM much better than the CZ. It is just a heck of a lot better looking and feeling rifle for not that much more money. And speaking of feeding problems, my PH on my last trip Zim had a CZ in .458 Lott that had given him fits in terms of feeding until he had a gunsmith completly change the feeding system (very complicated, what he did, but it now feeds from dead center). My point is, CZs can be less than perfect when chambered in this caliber, also.

My question is to any of you who have a Ruger in RSM, or have had any experience with them in .458 Lott: Did it feed OK in "tense" situations? By "OK" I mean every single time!(I have learned the hard way that if you have a rifle that feeds 99 times out of 100 in your basement, it will jam 99 times out of 100 when the chips are down in the bush, but that's a whole 'nother story.)

GA: I have one in 416 Rigby and I had a problem with the bolt "sticking" at the very end right before you close it. Mark Penrod slick it up and it feeds slicker n' whale shit. Retreever has one in 458 Lott that I got to fire and the only issue I think he had (hopefully he'll chime in) fas feeding I think Bridger solids with the square nose. The problem that was described in African Hunter with the Ruger was a weak ejector that failed to properly eject the empties if the action was cycled very fast. That's an easy enough fix, but I never had that problem with my rifle and believe me I was doing some very fast "combat" reloading when I took my buffalo this past June. Bottom line is that I strongly recommend them, but like any other DG rifle, have a good smith tune it up for you. They are also extremely accurate. jorge

I've got one in 416 rigby, Invader has one in 458 lott...

both feed excellent.. mine needs a very gentle carress on the right rear of the bridge to chunk rigby cases to the NEXT county, rather than just across this county.

the bubbas have inspected both, and the biggest complaint (other than the spectrum of wood) is that the safety should have been 3/16 bigger (longer, to the right side)

both throw all bullets you can put in it very well.

I stuck a limbsaver on mine, and POOF I actaully have close enough to my LOP to not worry about restocking it.

jeffe

A real problem I have with the Ruger RSM is that small safety tab. Guess I'm too used to the Winchester M70 safety. I was comparing the RSM, M70 Safari, and CZ 550 last week and prefer the Winchester for myself with everything taken into consideration. There are somethings I don't like about the new M70's, but I'm not sure there is a rifle in that class I'm 100% comfortable with.

I shoot a the new Ruger in 458 Lott got one of the first production runs...It shoots great and have had no problem and fellow AR member BillC shoots the same one also...the two of us have shot eles, and buf with them..

Mike

One member posted pics from his hunt and said great things about it. Lot of dead criters. I was told the early feeding issues were mainly
with the .416. As jeff said, ours throw brass and I picked some up over 10 steps away. I am very hapy with mine.
Gene

My two partners and myself each own one in .416 Rigby. None of them have had a problem with feeding. We practiced with them in all imaginable positions and practiced fast cycling. Again, no problems.

As for the safety, Baity's Gun Works in Wilkesboro, N.C. (336) 667-8785 enlarged our safeties and did an outstanding job. It looks like it is a factory part.

Cheers,

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
I recall that several years ago, African Hunter magazine did an article DGRs used by professional hunter candidates in Zimbabwe. In that article, they pretty much trashed the Ruger RSM in .458 Lott because of feeding problems.

My problem is that I really, really like the Ruger RSM much better than the CZ. It is just a heck of a lot better looking and feeling rifle for not that much more money. And speaking of feeding problems, my PH on my last trip Zim had a CZ in .458 Lott that had given him fits in terms of feeding until he had a gunsmith completly change the feeding system (very complicated, what he did, but it now feeds from dead center). My point is, CZs can be less than perfect when chambered in this caliber, also.

My question is to any of you who have a Ruger in RSM, or have had any experience with them in .458 Lott: Did it feed OK in "tense" situations? By "OK" I mean every single time!(I have learned the hard way that if you have a rifle that feeds 99 times out of 100 in your basement, it will jam 99 times out of 100 when the chips are down in the bush, but that's a whole 'nother story.)

The PH I had in Zim used just the gun you mention. He liked it and said it never jammed.

I have Winnies, CZs in 416 Rigby and the RSM in 416 and all have been slicked up and required such to feed and function perfectly, but the smoothest is the Ruger, and that's what i used last month for ele and buff - absolutely flawless performance and feeds flatnoses etc etc. My CZ 416 nearly drove me to drink.

GA, as Mike said, I have one bought new early 2004 and used it to shoot ele, hippo and buffalo. I have complete confidence in it. I cannot get it to jam by working the bolt slow, fast, upside down, etc. Ganyana updated his current opinion a while ago on the forum, don't recall exactly what he had to say but maybe he'll chime in. (Edit - Read Alan's post below)

As was mentioned, I am unable to use flat-nose solids, as the middle [left] cartridge gets stuck. I have not had this looked at, am happy w/Woodleigh or Hornandy solids. I was contacted by Ruger right after I bought it w/an offer to send it in, so maybe this has been address w/new ones (?).

I initially had it smoothed-over by a smith, and installed a mercury reducer in the rear (now that I have gotten used to the recoil, I'm not sure that I would do it again, although it does balance well). Decelerator pad or other for sure. I guess the quarter-rib is a big plus, although the integral Ruger mounting system does limit the choices a bit. I had problems w/Warne QD rings (little metal tab broke), but I think it was bec I was using too-hot loads and in a gun rest. So far in ~100-rounds w/a scope and no problem, and it returns to zero. Things/screws loosen up, but no issues w/the stock so far. The forend is a bit thick which I only notice when using the sticks (does not center as well as my M70 for example). Overall the gun feels good.

The bluing MAY be less resistant then other factory rifles, mine came off the barrel thanks to Avon SSS and where I held it. There were some comments on the forum prev in regards to this and it looking "purplish".

Accuracy is excellent, which I am just now seeing w/a Burris Posi-Lock 1.5-6 scope installed. With .500gr Woodleigh's at ~2220 its "on" at 100 and just 3-4" low at 200 yards. But the gun really comes into it's own when topless, and it carries very well over the shoulder (never had in a sling). JMO’s. Regards, Bill

Edit: I'll add that Buzz Charlton uses one in .416 Rigby and those that have seen it will attest to how used/abused this rifle is.

I have both an RSM in .375 and a 30-06 in the same safari configuration. I have fired them both extensively and practised in all positions. The RSM .375 had ejection and feeding problems when the bolt was worked aggressively. But I mean really aggresively, as stated in the article. Once in a while it had feeding problems with soft nosed ammo. The 30-06 had no ejector problem but feeding problems arose once in a while. These guns are by far the best value for your money out there. The integrated rib alone is worth the price of the gun. The rear sight and banded front sights are so superior to a M70 safari grade sites that it's laughable. The accuracy out of the box without bedding is Minute of angle. What you must relize is that any out of the box production gun and some custom guns have to be reworked after the break in shooting of a couple of hundred rounds to function perfectly. You should expect it with a production gun and if you risk your life without getting it done your playing an odds game that I'll keep out of. Buy the Ruger, get it slicked up and you'll be a real happy camper. Oh by the way, Ruger will soon figure out that their not making any money on this model and either raise the price a grand or more likely discontinue the line.

Maineguide

quote:

Oh by the way, Ruger will soon figure out that their not making any money on this model and either raise the price a grand or more likely discontinue the line.

Maineguide

They already made that decision with the Express model, so the .270/.30-'06/.300 Mag chamberings have been discontinued, and the prices on the remaining RSM rifles have increased.

jim

Gentlemen,

Ruger deserves out thanks and credit for fixing the extractor problem. Don Heath went to them at the SHOT Show a couple of years ago, and they wanted to know exactly what the problem was and how to fix it. They said they were going to take care of the problem, and to my knowledge, they made good on this promise.

If I remember correctly, the fix was to make the extractor slot deeper, so it would take more than a little gunk to cause a malfunction. If you are buying a brand new production gun, you probably have no worries. If you are buying a used gun, best contact Ruger to find out EXACTLY what they recommend, and have them or a good gunsmith make the correction.

Many otherwise knowledgeable shooters think that because one of these rifles functions perfectly here in the States they have nothing to worry about. However, the dust in Africa is more akin to talcum powder than the dust normally encountered elsewhere. Mix it with some oil and put it in a place where the tolerances are a little too tight, and your extraction gets FUBAR.

In addition, please understand that the article just reports what happened at the "Proficiency Test" that is held every year at Rifa to sort out apprentice PHs and their guns. What was reported was a statement of facts, and not opinions, and it was even recorded on video tape. Manufacturers sure as hell come to attention when you can show them that 7 out of 7 of their flagship DGRs went Jam-O-Matic in the heat and dust of the Zambezi Valley. We will never know for sure, but maybe it was just a bad production run, and the specs were just a little out. However, it is a fact that they all jammed and required work from the local gunsmiths to make them work right.

What is mildly amusing are the squeals of protest from gun owners because the rifle that they own, and never had any problems with, comes up short when put through this kind of acid test. Pride of ownership and amount of investment seem to be more important to these people than the truth. Here is an e-mail I just received yesterday, which is typical, though more polite than usual:

ON YOUR ARTICLE, LESSONS LEARNED. IT SEEMS WEATHERBY PISSED OFF SOMEBODY. I HAVE WEATHERBYS AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH THEM IN BIG BORE OR SMALL BORE. BAD MISTAKE TO JUST KEEP HARPING BACK TO WEATHERBY! THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

Needless to say, the only thing that seems to have caught this guy's attention was the fact that the Weatherbys crapped out. It seems that he had no problem with believing that the Rugers and Remingtons were also found wanting, since he did not even mention them. I even had one guy who accused Don of being anti-American since all the brands mentioned were manufactured in the States.

It is interesting all the things that people say when the facts are reported and are in conflict with their opinions. I just tell folks that this is what actually happened under extremely stressful field tests, and not just unfounded bias, but most of them are so deep into denial they just can't seem to face that their brand of choice might not be infallible. Like cars, many people's ego and self image are propped up by what they consider the ideal rifle, and if anyone dares criticize that brand, they go ballistic. You see it on gun forums all the time.

Like everyone else here says, the bottom line is do not go after dangerous game without seriously sorting out your rifle. Have a good gunsmith do an action and trigger job on it and put a couple of hundred rounds through it. There are factory rifles that are ready to go out of the box, but they are the exception and not the rule. The amazing thing is that these assembly line guns perform as well as they do. It is only when they are put to extreme stress that they fail. In the long run, I don't think that any make of rifle is immune to Murphy's Law, so practice due diligence and properly sort out whatever brand you choose.

Alan Bunn

Somebody asked the question of whether its a good rifle. With the whole standing ovation over this rifle, I might just have to buy one now.

Alan,

I bought my RSM .375 last spring and I had the ejector problems stated above. When I called Ruger and explained what was happening and what I had read in your article( great article by the way) they said they had never heard of the problem but to send them the gun and the article and they would take care of it straight away. Kudo's for them. But it still a problem as far as I can see and illistrates your point that all dangerous game rifles should be thoroughly tested before use.

Maineguide

Alan, I'm thankful that you took the time to share those insights with us. You are so right about the character of Africa's dust; it is microscpically-fine, and just seems to "hang there" -- it's that powdery. I noticed this once again hunting buffalo this year. When that veil of dust goes up, it acts like a transluscent curtain, and any dust that is of that consistency absolutely has the capacity to jam an over-tight action.

Many American riflemen (and manufacturers) are too "benchrest" and "tactically-oriented" these days. Action tolerances get tighter and tighter, chamber dimensions get tighter, and all in the name of that sacred-cow, "benchrest-accuracy". This is great for shooting prarie dogs in SD, and for punching paper in some tournament back home, but for big game hunting, especially in Africa, it's a totally misplaced set of priorities, even for plainsgame.

Action tolerances should be loose, like that of a Mauser 98 or pre-64 Model 70, and if the rifle was properly put together, accuracy will still be sub-MOA anyway. So all of that "benchrest-accuracy" claptrap is a lot of fuss and feathers about basically nothing of consequence.

As a sidenote, the Tuff-Cloth product is absolutely superior for use on rifle actions during African hunting conditions -- far better than any oil. Its use keeps gumming to a minimum......

AD

I have a RSM in .416 Rigby and it feeds flawlessly even with North Fork flat nose solids. Mine is a recent rifle, 2 years old, so the ejection problem must be fixed, mine is very positive as are my other Rugers. I believe it's as close to a production DGR as you will find, just be sure to check it and any other rifle for flawless feeding, etc.

I couldn't agree with Alan any more.

I used the Tuff Cloth when in Africa and have for a few yers at home. It does not collect anything and provides great protection.

I use the 'Marine' version but don't know what the difference is between it and the standard one other than the U.S.Navy S.E.A.L.s use it.

Sam

Hey guys,

Sierrabravo,

I would not go so far as to give Ruger a standing ovation, or any of the other manufacturers either, but they are OK for what you have to pay for them.

If you get a Ruger just be sure that you realize it is only a starting point and that like all the others it will probably need rebedding, new safety, trigger job, action job, and God knows what else depending on the quirks of that particular rifle. Shoot 200 rounds through it MINIMUM and the recoil will bring out it's flaws.

Speed shoot it as well, by that I mean see how fast you can empty the magazine into a target that's 25-50 yards away. Better use a piece of white poster board with a stick-on orange dot, because you will be "patterning" and not "grouping" at first. It makes sense to have a big target so you can see where the bullet goes when you flinch. You will flinch some until you get used to the recoil and learn to let it flow through you instead of trying to stop it.

Empty the magazine as fast as you can, then reload and empty it again. If you can stay within a 9 inch circle which is the diameter of a paper plate at 25 yards, you are good to go. Move the target back to 50 yards and shoot until you can do it again. To add more realism, run until you are sweating and gasping for air, then empty your rifle two or three times and see how you do. I call this the "Charging Buffalo Drill" and this is what I do to prepare for a safari. Being able to shoot a 1 inch group off a rest doesn't mean too much when you are trying to stop a dangerous animal at close range.

Actually, I would buy a CZ 550 or an old ZKK-602 over anything else just for their magazine capacity. For my money, a six shot .458 Lott trumps good looks, handling, or even accuracy. For hunting dangerous game, this is a crucial thing that is usually overlooked in these discussions. The CZ is the cheapest way to get a six-shooter DGR. Any other considerations have no merit for me when it comes down to pouring the lead into a buffalo or an elephant at close range. Pretty wood and quarter ribs are nice, but I doubt the buffalo are impressed.

Allen,

It was hard for me as a first time safari hunter to understand about the quality of the African dust until I saw it for myself. I have never seen anything like it on this side of the pond, and although I have read all the old stories, it took going there and seeing it in person before it really sunk in. This is why I use Pelican cases for everything now. Waterproof is good, but dust proof is crucial to me.

Good point about the benchrest mindset. I am glad for the many things that competitive shooting has given us, but a good DGR should have more in common with a combat rifle like the old Mauser 98. The Germans had to learn that lesson about loose tolerances again in WWII before they fielded the MG-42. A proper DGR has to go off every time when you pull the trigger, and function every time you work the bolt, no matter what.

Tuff-Cloth is good stuff, and any graphite based lubricant should work as well. I think there is a brand called Dri-Lube, but some other brands may be just as good. The point is to not over-lubricate the gun. An old gunsmith once told me he had seen far more guns damaged by over cleaning than by not cleaning. It may be that over-lubricating could be the main culprit for jamming at Rifa, especially the sludge created with the talcum-like dust. I personally just carry a can of Gun Scrubber or something similar to blast off the bolt and trigger. It flushes out the oil and dust and leaves a dry lube behind.

Maineguide,

You didn't say if the gun was new or used, but if it was a new production gun, then I am annoyed to hear that someone at Ruger says they never heard of the problem. Of course, it could be just the person you spoke to didn't know, and not their gun-tech folks. The problem is that Ruger is just a big mindless corporation like all the rest of them. One way to not be fired at one of these big companies is to be in total denial about any problems with the product. It could be that the people at the SHOT Show told us they would fix the problem and then said "fuck them" as soon as our backs were turned. Who knows, but nothing surprises me anymore.

Jstevens,

You have certainly gotten good service from your new production Ruger, so it does appear that they finally got it right. But, maybe you are just lucky and got a good one. I mean, many hunters who posted earlier have good older production rifles and had no problems. I am sure that they are all telling the truth or they wouldn't have taken the time to respond. Just a wake up call to take nothing for granted.

BTW, there is a large aftermarket safety available to replace the small one Ruger uses. The safety and the extractor on these guns are their weak points from all accounts. I have never heard anyone complain about the bedding, but it would be something to have a look at as well. I don't know who makes the replacement safety, but maybe someone has their contact details. I think they run ads in Rifle Magazine.

So, the prudent thing to do if you "got" to have a Ruger for whatever reason, is to shoot the living hell out of it. There is nothing like 5000 ft.lbs. of energy to make something on a rifle go wrong if it is going to go wrong. Better it go wrong over here than over there.

The sad truth is that there is not a good DGR available out of the box from anyone in the under $2000 price range. However, what is worse is that it would not cost that much more money to do it right. I wonder why one of the manufacturers doesn't just fix these problems and take over the market.

This may be like the Holy Grail, but I would like a true CRF action six-shooter that had robust iron sights with Tritium inserts, 3-4 pound trigger pull, 100% reliable feeding, 1 MOA accuracy from a bench rest, available in either wood or synthetic stocks, available in right or left handed actions, available in either stainless or regular steel for under $2000. It is possible but I don't think it will happen anytime soon, which is good news for all the gunsmiths in the world.

Alan Bunn

Alan: great posts and I can personally attest to most of what you say from personal experience. I have one of the very first RSMs off the line, it has the longer (too long) 24" barrel and the front swivel is in the forearm although it's never bothered me. As I stated previosuly, my bolt had a bad habit of sticking right before it went into battery and Mark Penrod did a fantastic job in slicking the action. I also had it bedded ( well that weird piece of metal that acts as a bed) nad to date, I've put better than 800 rounds through it, a few using the irons as you suggest at 25 and 50 yards.

I've done as you suggested, and believe me, I CYCLED that action very fast and even faster when I was weighing down that buffalo in Dande this past summer and had zero problems.

I was lucky in that my trigger breaks cleanly right at 4lb. Regarding the safety, I've never founf it to be an issue since I've been so comfortable with Model 70 safeties, I can work this one. Your basic premise remains so very true however, virtually NO rifle is buffalo ready unless you spend the money. Thansk for a great post. jorge