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I was reading Tony Sanchez-Arino's book, "Elephant Hunters, Men of Legend" (a very good book) the other day and ran across an interesting paragraph in the chapter on John Taylor: "Years ago, a sensationalistic author of African stories, and a self-proclaimed admirer of Taylor, wrote a biography of him. In general the book is enjoyable and well documented, but it puts Taylor in an unpleasant light with its comments and criticisms--and odd way of demonstrating admiration. Among other things, it broadcasts to the four winds his homosexuality and reveals intimate aspects of his private life. Not only were these details in bad taste, showing a complete lack of respect for personal privacy; this "author-fan" also cast doubt upon quite a few of Taylor's experiences. It was particularly regrettable that such things should come from a writer who, in spite of his pretensions, was a man with virtually no practical experience as a hunter. By writing books and stories about hunters, this author came to believe he was one of them, without having passed the stage of absolute beginner. That author even took the liberty of discussing and partly criticizing the formula Taylor had created for evaluating the effect of different bullets on the animals, which he called Knock-Out Values." Found it interesting and thought I would share it. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | ||
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So did Taylor bend-over or not?? | |||
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Sanchez-Arino is of course talking about Capstick and his book A Man Called Lion: The Life and Times of John Howard "Pondoro" Taylor. I found the book quite sympathetic to Taylor. Neither Capstick nor any other modern biographer, if he wanted to be taken seriously, could possibly overlook or fail to address or acknowledge his subject's homosexuality. As for Capstick's veracity generally, now that is another subject entirely. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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The story is that Brian Marsh regretted the harsh reviews of the book as he is a professed admirer of Taylor, and recovered Taylor's remains from the adopted family in Mozambique, and his remains now reside in Australia. Be that as it may I still do not see the point in the expose' of Taylor reportedly being queer. If indeed he was and I still do not see any real proof, as it is all speculation, I'm not sure anything was served by selling the "truth and whole truth." I always think of these guys that are trying to justify some new knock down theory by taking cheap shots at Taylor and even one on the net goes on about Jack O'Connor having more "kills" than Taylor and therefore O'Connor's opinions were more valuable than Taylor's. That has to be one of the most, if not the most, absurd statements I have ever read. Outdoor writers in their never ending need to write something perceived as new every month are the most guilty. They just cannot bring themsleves to admit that Taylor's ideas of sixty years ago were correct. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Taylor was a homosexual but not a fag, could really care less. He had a lot more experience than anyone on this forum on elephants. | |||
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Of what possible relevance is a hunters sexuality? DC300 | |||
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I f i was in a strange camp, sharing bunks with felloew hunters I would strongly prefer that they be staright.  Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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WHY? I couldn't care less if the guy in the bunk next to me was a "poofter". Just because his sexuality is different it doesn't mean he's a rapist or is going to "play with you" while you are asleep. What's with the homophobia? | |||
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Biographies of men are about the man's life not them as a hunter. So if he was gay a rather large detail like that couldn't be left out by any self respecting biographer. If being gay had a large affect on his life it would warrant writing about not necessarily to smear his name and sell books, but to explain the man and his life. The way in which you choose to address it (detail) is another matter. I haven't read it yet, so I can't speak on PHC writing. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Gay or not gay, I would love to share a campfire (and a scotch or two) with Taylor and talk hunting, rifles and ballistics with him. His Knock Out Value theory remains as true today as it was when he first articulated it decades ago. Mike | |||
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I think most people would agree 100% with that summation.  | |||
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I also agree 100% with the above, but his homosexuality is a relevant aspect of his biography and helps to explain why he stayed so long in the bush. The implication in PHC's book is that Taylor had easy access to African men and was able to engadge his sexuality without condemnation or knowledge from the outside world. He obviously enjoyed the hunting lifestyle, but apparently that wasn't the only thing he enjoyed. STAY IN THE FIGHT! | |||
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<<<<<"Years ago, a sensationalistic author of African stories, and a self-proclaimed admirer of Taylor, wrote a biography of him. In general the book is enjoyable and well documented, but it puts Taylor in an unpleasant light with its comments and criticisms--and odd way of demonstrating admiration. Among other things, it broadcasts to the four winds his homosexuality and reveals intimate aspects of his private life. Not only were these details in bad taste, showing a complete lack of respect for personal privacy; this "author-fan" also cast doubt upon quite a few of Taylor's experiences. It was particularly regrettable that such things should come from a writer who, in spite of his pretensions, was a man with virtually no practical experience as a hunter. By writing books and stories about hunters, this author came to believe he was one of them, without having passed the stage of absolute beginner. That author even took the liberty of discussing and partly criticizing the formula Taylor had created for evaluating the effect of different bullets on the animals, which he called Knock-Out Values.">>>>>> Some may find it interesting that the above-mentioned "author-fan" wrote about an unnamed person desecrating a revered ivory hunter's grave by stealing its plaque and remounting it on the fireplace at his home in a certain southern European country known for bullfighting and flamenco dancing. Bill Quimby | |||
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BQ, What?!! Do you really know this? Boy, that is a tough one. If I had gone to all that effort to find it, it would be a natural tendency I guess to make off with it. No reproduction replaced it, eh? ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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WHY? I couldn't care less if the guy in the bunk next to me was a "poofter". Just because his sexuality is different it doesn't mean he's a rapist or is going to "play with you" while you are asleep. What's with the homophobia?[/QUOTE] Tell you something. If the rest of you could shoot like them, I wouldn't care if the whole damn department was queer. ("Dirty" Harry Callahan, Magnum Force) Couldn't agree more A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot | |||
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With all the commotion on homosexuality in today world, I'd rather a break from it on this Shooting- Hunting forum please... | |||
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Yoiu mean you wouldn't want to participate in a Gay Taylor March?  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Hi Mate, in the context of talking about a GREAT hunter, it is hard to not mention that aspect of his life and it is no doubt hard for some to come to grips with it. I must admit when I first heard about JT's sexuality I was a bit taken aback (no one is a bigger fan of Pondoro than myself, you better believe that). However not being homophobic it took me about a nano second to accept it, really who gives a shit anyway. It in no way diminishes his reputation or status in my eyes one iota. I think he was the "greatest". Oh by the way, I reckon not many people on this forum would have the guts to critisize him to his face (for his preferences) should he still be alive today. I reckon his "son" would back me up on that! He was one hell of a brawler you know. Forget about the limp wrist with this fellow!!!! | |||
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What is it with people trying to contol the conversations on this damn board?? Oz if you don't like to read this kind of thing then why in the hell do you click on it? And once you do and realize what it in here then just be quiet and stay away so that other people can enjoy free from the whining. But be sure and drop off a list of approved subjects at the office on you way by would you please.. My ex wife had a gay friend who had made eyes at me a time or two, I let it pass since putting up with his wimpy games was easier to put up with than explaining to here why I decapitated her little friend. Finally though he asked me if I had any problem with gay men, I said not really,, I just have one rule. Don't touch my ass and I won't break your nose. If you understand that rule then we will get along just peachy. The silly looks stopped. I would not have a damn bit of problem hunting with a gay man like Taylor. Been around a lot of gay men and not a one has tried to rape me yet. So in that light I have had a lot of women come on a lot harder to me that I have turned down. I didn't get real tore up about it all either way. Although I did read something interesting once about it all, it said that one in ten men in the US have had a homosexual experiance.. Interesting. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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I wonder how 404 feels about all this? | |||
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The definition of Biography, is the details of a person's life. Part of Taylor's life was hunter, part poacher, part brawler, part homosexual, so why the PC bullshit. though that was part of his life doesn't deminish his credability, ans a hunter, or firearm expert of his time. I couldn't care less what Taylor did when the lamp was doused, but it is a great part of who he was, and as said tends to explain why he spent years in the bush, seemingly in no need of more accepted peers of his day, in Africa. It seems to me everyone is quick to make all kinds of assumptions about Capstick's private life, and do not hesitate to mention his drinking anytime his name is mentioned. That was part of PHC's life, so how is that different from the stateing that Taylor was gay? I don't think Taylor was misstreated by this book, and for everyone's information, PHC did not write this book, in the normal sense. Nearly all PHC's books are the repetition of interviews with folks like Brian Marsh, and others, written almost word for word as it was told to Peter. SO, if you want to get angry at someone who brought up Taylor's preferences, then it wouldn't be PHC, but the research source.
In this case I think the sugestion is that the person who is smearing PHC is the "UNNAMED PERSON"!mentioned in PHC's book, is the author of the paragraph below, and the country is Spain! Guess who that is!
In any event, Taylor is one of my all time favorite characters of the old African hunting, regardless of his private life. If one wants to get into telling real stories about the old ele hunters, then all you have to say is they were all poachers from time to time,even MOST times, and were constantly running for the law, and killing many ele left to rot in the bush, with nothing but the ivory taken. Wounded animals were almost never followed up, and were allowed to suffer long periods before death. They had to hit, chop, and run, in most cases. So being a homo was the least of their faults. That is just the way things were in those days, and not only in Africa. Most of the MARKET hunters, of old, would be nothing more that criminals, by today's standards.  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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What I found interesting was Sanchez-Arino's comments about Capstick, not the part about John Taylor. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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<<<<<<BQ, What?!! Do you really know this? Boy, that is a tough one. If I had gone to all that effort to find it, it would be a natural tendency I guess to make off with it. No reproduction replaced it, eh?>>>>>>> Capstick's mention of the theft of James Sutherland's plaque appears on page 232 of "The African Adventurers" (St. Martin's Press, 1992). Bill Quimby | |||
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MacD37 I'm a little confused by your response to my post. I'm not sure if you're trying to disagree with what I wrote, but I agree with you and think we are saying the same thing. Again I haven't read the book nor do I know how it came about so I won't comment on Capstick's writing or method of information collection. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Tony's comments weren't about rehashing whether or not Taylor was gay, they were about exposing Capstick as a wannabe fraud. | |||
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Exactly Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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Brett, I agree with you 100%! A biography is supposed to be the details od the life of the subject you are writing about. A thing so strongly imbodied in ones psyche, like homosexuality is not a small matter in the make up of a person, and IMO, should be stated like any other part of his life! I see absolutely nothing wrong with not disregarding that part of Taylor's make up, in his biography! IMO, enough of the PC bullshit, and just say it like it is! Political correctness, is nothing more than liberal censorship! What ever happened to just telling the truth? ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Capstick alleged that Sanchez-Arino stole Sutherland's grave marker and put it above his fireplace. Sanchez-Arino claims that he found the grave in deplorable, run down condition, and restored it. Hmmmm . . . .  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I've read most PHC's stuff and I've never known him to try to pass himself off as the great White Hunter. He actually self-deprecatingly called himself names such as the mail order bwana, etc. I also have never read in any of his books where he denigrated another hunter. The guy did a lot for the industry and regardless of personal feeling towards him one has to admit that he was a heck of a storyteller. As for whether Pondoro was or wasn't a butt pirate, who cares? If he was though I'll bet he was a pitcher and not a catcher  . | |||
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At one point I was reading everything I could written by or about John Taylor and when I saw Capstick's book I bought it and read it. I think the biography would have been just as successful without the referrals to Taylor's sexual orientation. It just seemed unecessary, cheap and in poor taste to me. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I read somewhere that Taylor tried to live the true African life style. I think it was mentioned that every once in a while the African would relieve his sexual tension with help from a fellow African while in the bush.  And that was a normal occurance in the African bush.Wonder what that means? The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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I am really surprised to hear that Brian Marsh "recovered" Taylor's remains and that they are now in Australia. I thought Taylor was pretty specific about wanting to be buried in Africa. What ever happened to "Your last request"? I don't know if you can be pissed off when your dead but if I was Taylor I would be about now. 465H&H | |||
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<<<At one point I was reading everything I could written by or about John Taylor and when I saw Capstick's book I bought it and read it. I think the biography would have been just as successful without the referrals to Taylor's sexual orientation. It just seemed unecessary, cheap and in poor taste to me. Mark H. Young >>>>> Mark: Ignoring Taylor's sexual orientation in his biography would be like an author ignoring Rock Hudson's or Elton John's proclivities in their biographies. It would cast doubt in readers' minds about everything the author wrote. Capstick (and Marsh) documented and handled Taylor's relationship with his long-time male African lover with dignity and without negative comment. There was no "complete lack of respect" for Taylor as at least one critic wrongly claimed. Bill Quimby | |||
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Bill, To my non literary mind the exploitation of Taylor's sexuality was nothing more than sensationalism to sell books. If you see it another way that is fine and I appreciate your right to view the subject in a different light. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Thanks, Mark. You are correct in that I did not view "A Man Called Lion" as exploitation or sensationalism. I believe it is a fair and non-biased account of Taylor's extraordinary life in Africa. Bill Quimby | |||
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Before Capstick's book came out there were a lot of rumors floating around about his being a homosexual or at least a bi-sexual. It was rumored that is why he was kicked out of Mozambique although he said it was because he lived like and took the side of the African when dealing with the white governments. A biography would not be complete with out covering if those rumors were true or not. 465H&H | |||
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I keep coming back to, who the hell cares and what difference does it make in terms of his enduring contributions to ballistics and hunting? Mike | |||
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I think Bill Quimby has hit the nail on the head when he said "ignoring Taylors sexual orientation...... it would cast doubts in readers minds about everything the author wrote" Let's just say to ignore that rather important fact in a biography would make no sense at all. Mark: There is no doubt that you are entitled to your opinion but how is stating the facts, (and an important one at that) become exploitation? No one admired Taylor more than Brian Marsh!!! In fact he describes Pondoro as his mentor. I know that Marsh considered JT to be a "man's man" with an encyclopaedic knowledge of rifles, hunting, and ballistics. The homosexuality part was just one piece in a complex jig saw puzzle. To think that he or PHC were taking cheap shots at Taylor is utter bullshit. IT WAS NEVER MARSH'S INTENTION TO BE DISRESPECTFULL TO JOHN TAYLOR. As I have stated he held the fellow in the HIGHEST ESTEEM, and was lucky enough to have shared many campfires with him, something, no doubt most of us here would have dearly loved to be part of. Except, of course, the homophobics out there. | |||
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I think, like others, that this feud was born between the two men involved, i.e. Peter and Tony. If I remember well, in a work from Peter about the Kilimanjaro Elephant he quotes Tony without naming him, writing something like "a certain Spaniard" or something like that (I have the Spanish translation of course). | |||
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