I just finished reading the latest issue of Safari magazine and the article by CB about th various "hot" 375s. His comments regarding their effectiveness were interesting, especially the one he made about the 375Wby and RUM being about the equal of the 416s on large game. Apparently, the extra 800-1000 ft. lbs. of energy they deliver takes them up a notch, at least from his experience in using them on buffalo and other game.
This goes along with what I've witnessed on similar game. My old hunting partner from TX has used his 375Ackley on several of our safaris and it really hammered the buffalo, zebra, eland and other species he shot with it. Definitely a notch up from the 375H&H that I carried.

With todays better powders it's not that difficult to equal the 375 Weatherby original ballistics with a 375HH. My 24" barrel shoots 300 grain bullets at 2650 fps. Those same loads have worked in all the other rifles tried with no pressure problems. My 270 grain Bullets are going 2850 which is identical to the factory Hornady ammo in my gun. RL-15 powder with Federal standard large rifle primers are a match made in heaven for the 375HH.

Again these have worked in every gun tried with no pressure troubles whatever. As improved powders become available it will make the standard calibers very close to the magnums, or improved cases.

As an example the 30/06 today can easily exceed the original ballistics of the 300HH when it was introduced. Yet when the 300HH came on the market it was the greatest thing in the world for long range shooting. Today the 30/06 beats those original numbers with no problem!

Comments moved to another page.

[ 01-12-2003, 03:23: Message edited by: Marv ]

JJ-
I totally agree with you about what can be done with the old H&H, however loading it up to 2650fps takes away most of the "shootability" the cartridge is famous for! The heavy magnum loads are also no pleasure to shoot in comparison to the old standard loading of 2500fps. Once you're that far up the scale, going to the 375Wby is not much of an increase in recoil.
I went back and looked up some "old" Weatherby data and their original loading, taken from a '50s era Weatherby Guide shows the 375Wby lised as having a MV of 2800fps with 300gr bullet. same as their new loadings.
I own and shoot both the H&H and the Weatherby and there is still about 150-200fps difference when both are loaded to equal levels. Those new powders work magic on the Weatherby too!

[ 01-11-2003, 22:47: Message edited by: John S ]

Hey, Marv, are you on the right page?

JS,
I can only get a comfortable (normal pressure) 2500 to 2550 fps with 300 grain bullets in my 24" 375 H&H's.

Equally comfortable loads in my 24" 375 Wby run around 2700 to 2750 fps with 300 grain bullets. But use a 26" barrel, as the old Weatherby data might, and 2800 fps is reasonable.

I think 200 fps extra with the 375 Wby, over the 375 H&H, is reasonable.

I think this is all that I would ask of any 375 for general hunting purposes. And yes, with the right bullet that little bit of extra velocity does make a difference, IMHO.

And then there is the practicality issue of currently easily available factory 375 Wby loads and properly headstamped brass for reloading, as well as shooting 375 H&H standard ammo in the 375 Wby chamber and still getting useful ballistics in a pinch.

All of that makes the 375 Wby King of the 375's.

[ 01-11-2003, 22:57: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Ron,
My custom 375H&H has a 24" barrel and 2550fps is all it can muster in warm weather. My other H&H is an original M70 with 25" barrel and it is marginally faster, 2600fps is an absolute top load. My 375Wby has a 24" barrel and just yesterday I was shooting some 300gr Swift loads through it. Over a max charge of R19 they were hitting 2735fps, this in 24* temps. I'm sure those same loads will make 2775fps in the 80* days of summer.
After seeing what my friend's Ackley did to so many head of big game, I put my 416s away and moved up to the 450 Dakota for my big rifle. Just not enough difference in the hot 375 and the 416 to need both, and the 375Wby makes a great pairing with my 450. Not much on any continent that pair won't handle!

I just came back for a few minutes to visit the topic and I realized our host here has a very high velocity 375 diameter cartridge(375/404). He as most of us know has taken as many buffalo as many professional hunters have!

I still remember a conversation I had with him regarding the much higher velocities he was capable of getting with the 375/404. He said I've begun loading it down to near the original factory 375HH velocities because I did not see much in the way of a big improvement with the higher velocities.

There is no question the higher velocities will drive a premium bullet deeper and be more lethal on the biggest game. However Saeeds opinion having killed as many big animals as he has with this bullet diameter is interesting.

If you're reading Saeed, refresh my memory on the reason you have stepped down the original higher velocity of your rifle/cartridge to the lower level of the 375HH.

John S, Yes I have read the Weatherby Data as well. It's always been amusing to me. In the 50's how many guys had a chronograph to check the Weatherby Hype and BS? They also listed the 300 wtby at 3250 fps and I owned one that was lucky to get 3100fps. Ol'Roy was a bit of an optimist when it came to his cartridges!

I do think that the 375 Weatherby is the only real improvement in the 375HH to come along. Anymore power then that is unrealistic in the 375 diameter. If the 375HH can't get the job done I would move up in weight before I would increase velocity. Heck My 375HH with a 270 grain bullet is at least as flat shooting as my 30/06. How much more range does a guy need in Africa?

JJ - A couple of questions about your post...

1. How do you get a .375H&H to equal the muzzle velocity of a .375 Weatherby?

2. How many grains of RL-15 are your stuffing into your .375H&H to net 2650fps with a 300gr bullet?

3. How many grains of RL-15 are your stuffing into your .375H&H to net 2850fps with a 270gr bullet?

4. What type of chronograph do you own?

[ 01-11-2003, 23:42: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Case capacity still counts for something, and there's no doubt in my mind that a .375 WBY, when loaded to its full potential, will exceed even the best loads you can put through the .375 H&H. I like the original H&H version very much because of its great shootability, but I can't help but think that the .375 WBY might just be the most sensible .375 of them all in some respects. In a pinch you can even shoot .375 H&H ammo in it without a hitch.

AD

JJ-
Don't know about the availability of chronographs in the 1950s, but I have owned three 300Wby rifles and all of them would do over 3200fps with 180gr bullets. My current 300Wby does this too, and manages 3025fps with 200gr bullets. All of these had/have 26" barrels.
Saeed can answer best regarding his loading but if memory serves I think he loads those 300gr X bullets to something around 2650fps. And I don't believe for one minute that anyone can get that velocity with that bullet in any 375H&H.
The flatter shooting capability of the 375Wby is something that really doesn't interest me all that much either. The incrased effectiveness with premium 300gr bullets in close is what does. Bullets such as the North Fork and Swift do quite well when given a bit more zip.

Mr. Drift, I don't see anyplace where the 378 weatherby has been involved in this thread. I believe we have been discussing the 375 weatherby!

75 grains of RL-15 is just about exactly 2850 with a 270 grain bullet from a 24 inch barrel. It so happens that the exact same performance is available using the Hornady factory 270 grain ammo. It's even stated as such on their box. The chrono's used are of various models at the range or owned by myself and fellow shooters. This certainly cannot be news as I learned of the loads on this site some time ago in other threads on this topic.

If you're interested the load of 72 grains of RL-15 is what developes 2600 plus in so many different rifles with the 300 grain hornady bullet. However I have only used this load with standard large rifle primers not the magnum primers. For what ever reason the magnum primers gave wild velocity spreads for me( and others). I quit using them in the 375HH with RL-15. With other Powders they seem have been fine.

[ 01-11-2003, 23:43: Message edited by: JJHACK ]

The major variable here is bullets. With solids, the .375 H&H already has more than enough penetration.

With premium softs the extra velocity can in theory be used.

Saeed reports he uses the Barnes X-Bullet in his .375 on the .404 case, and I have seen references that he has reduced the velocity of his loads for increased effectiveness on buff.

Saeed, can you confirm which bullet you are using, and what muzzle velocity?

jim dodd

JJ - Noted and corrected. What sorta chamber pressures are you calculating with 75gr of RL-15 with a 270gr bullet or 72gr of RL-15 with a 300gr bullet ?

Your load to velocity calculations are indeed quite impressive. What chrono are you using?

[ 01-11-2003, 23:57: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

DaggaRon,

Nope! LOL. Probably won't be the first mistake for the day either!

Marv

The 375 H&H 300 grain Barnes XFB max load in the Barnes manual No. 3, with RL-15, Winchester brass, CCI 250 primer:

72.0 grains RL-15 >>> 2645 fps

However, I have found the Barnes manual often overstating velocities, as I often get about 100 fps less than they do, when I check them out with my ProChrono Plus, admittedly not the best chronograph, but it has been very reliable and gave a lot of believable results over the years.

Here is what I got with my 375 H&H (a 24" Douglas Premium stainless barrel on a Pre-64 Winchester M70 action):

RL-15 72.0 grains
Winchester brass
GM 215M primer
Barnes XFB 300 grain .375 bullet with cannelure and crimp.

96 degrees F on 7/16/01 in Kentucky, about 300 feet above sea level.

nine shots:

2531 fps
2533
2544
2538
2521
2526
2514
2518
2535
ave = 2528 fps
Sd = 9 fps
ES = 30 fps
One hole 3-shot accuracy at 100 yards if I concentrate.

This is such a good load in my rifle that I don't care about any other for the 375 H&H.

This same rifle and chronograph were used to test two factory loads the same day at the same 96 degree F temperature:

Federal Premium Safari, 300 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw: 2430 fps

Remington, 300 grain Swift A-Frame: 2441 fps

Just a sample from one gun and one cheap chronograph one day, FWIW.

It seems I do recall getting an average of about 2530 fps with the Remington ammo above from a different lot, in a different rifle, using the same chronograph. Results may vary as the components involved vary.

[ 01-12-2003, 03:19: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

JohnS,

Just wondering, how does the 375WBY recoil compare to the 416 rem.? I hear you on the 300 grain 375 H&H @ 2600fps., my rifle with it's factory barrel will just cross this line, and it is certainly a step up in recoil, from 2500, but the rifle likes the combo that reaches this speed, with the Swift. I guess one thing that I really like about the original is the way it feeds, knowing your rifle's pedigree, I am sure your rifle is flawless, but do you notice a difference in feeding, I mean if you had to feed it with original H&H version?

Many Thanks

HBH

[ 01-12-2003, 07:55: Message edited by: HBH ]

HBH-
I've tried stuffing the magazine with Wby rounds, H&H rounds and a mix of both. I can close my eyes while working the bolt and not tell which one is which. As for the recoil, it is defintely more than my H&H rifles produce. I don't own a rifle chambered 416Rem. these days so can't do an A/B comparison but my memory tells me there isn't a big difference, as long as the 416 is loaded 2350-2400fps. If you get the Remington stuffed full it will usually make 2475fps or so and then the difference is much greater. I'd say about the same as going from a standard H&H 2500fps loading to the 375Wby.

Gentlemen,

As most of you know, I like the Barnes X 300 grain bullet in my 375 rifles. And I have used this bullet on several hundred game animals.

I had a conversation with John Lazzeroni a few years back, while he was building a couple of rifles for me and a friend. I asked him why he did not offer a 375 based on the Rigby case - as his 416 is an improved version of the Rigby.

He said he found there was more demand for the 416 in the US, and he might offer it in the future. I asked him if he would consider building me one, by just taking his 416 and necking down to 375.

And being the gentleman he is, he kindly agreed, but told me he had no brass for it, but would be happy to supply me with 416 cases, from which I can form my own brass.

Well, he built me a rifle, and as usual with his guns, it shot extremely well.

I was able to get 3140 fps with a 300 grain Barnes X bullet from it, and thought it might be interesting to take that rifle to Africa.

I shot many animals with it, ranging from impalas to buffalo, and in every case, the penetration was no where near as good as from my own 375/404, which was loaded to around 2650 fps.

At the shorter ranges, we found that the petals broke off the bullets almost as soon as it entered the body of the animal. We could see this by cutting the animal and finding smaller, secondary pieces going off in different directions.

The next year, I loaded 3 different loads for my 375/404, all with the Barnes 300 grain X bullet. The velocities were 2940, 2813 and 2620 fps.

Again, the lower velocity load seems to consistently penetrate more that the higher velocity loads.

I settled on loading my own hunting ammo to around 2650-2700, depending on teh rifle and barrel length. This load seems to at least meet my own hunting requirements. It penetrates extremely well, going almost the whole length of a buffalo bull, and has flat enough trajectory to be able to make it reasonably easy to kikl an impala at over 400 yards.

Here are a few examples of what we found, you are welcome to draw your own conclusion from them.

I shot an impala facing me at around 50 yards with the 3142 fps load. The impala dropped in his tracks. The bullet lost all its petals, and was found in the stomach. It had entered his body at the base of the neck.

A similar impala was shot with the 2650 load, the impala staggered, arching his back, walked a few yards, and lay down and died. The bullet entered his body at the junction of the neck and shoulder, and was found under the skin next to his tail.

Some calculated recoil numbers for representative loads, all in the hypothetical 10 pound, field ready, scoped rifle:

375H&H: 300gB/2550fps/72gP/10#G >>> 37ftlbs @15fps
375WBY: 300gB/2750fps/89gP/10#G >>> 49ftlbs @17fps
416REM: 400gB/2400fps/79gP/10#G >>> 52ftlbs @18fps

My shoulder recollections agree with this and John S.

Great info Saeed.
Is the load you settled on listed in the reloading data pages? If not could you tell us what it is?

A guesstimate of a 2700 fps 375/404 load with the 300 grain Barnes X using 91 grains of XXXX powder in a 10# rifle:

recoil energy = 48 ft.lbs.
recoil velocity = 17 ft/sec

[ 01-12-2003, 10:13: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

RAB,

375/404

89 grains of VVN 160 = 2620 fps
95 = 2813
97.5 = 2942
95 grains of H4831 = 2603
92.5 grains VVN 560 = 2659

95 grains of a different lot of H4831 = 2650 with Barnes X 300 grains, and 2648 with barnes Super Solids.

375/416 Rigby Improved (375 Lazzeroni)

115 grains of VVN 560 = 3142 fps

All the above loads are with the Barnes X 300 grain bullet.

With 119 grains of VVN 560 and the Barnes X 250 grain bullet, we got 3305 fps from the Lazzeroni, shooting 0.425" for three shots at 100 yards.

Next thing you know Saeed is going to tell me the 45-70 out penetrates any of the 375's...


DR S

Dr S,

And next you will tell me you ARE actually living in Athens, Greece

You did give me excellent advice, Saeed.
I'm delighted with the CZ 550 in 375, and see no reason to hot rod it, AT THIS TIME

Hope you had a wonderful holidays.

DR S

PS Athens is just beautiful this time of year

Greece:
NO Reloaded ammunition. Required qualifying, on a yearly basis, to maintaion gun ownership.

Union of the Soviet Socialist Republik of Kalifornia, worse. No assault rifles, if they don't look right(means has to be an M1A clone)

No Ak 47's...
Don't get me started...
DR S

Saeed,
Have you ever tried the various other premium bullets in your 375/404? I'm wondering if the Fail Safe, Swift or even the North Fork would perform better at the higher velocities your rifle is capable of? From the examples you provided I can see why you keep the velocity down with the X, but that would have given me the perfect excuse to try some of these others!

John,

I am afriad we are in a bit of a sorry state here. We can no longer get all the components we want, as we have a sort of catch-22 situation.

The US government will not allow the export of bullets without a valid Export permit. We cannot get an Export permit, because we need to provide an Import permit from our country, which is not required for components.

Before 9-11, we could import all the components we wanted without any hassle, but since then things changed for the worst.

I am lucky in a sense that I have quite a lot of bullets, mainly Barnes X, for my 375/404, and as they seem to work so well in it, I think I will just stick to them.

I also have a some Nosler Partition, and some Bear Claws. But, I would hate to wast them, on testing. When I run out of the Barnes X, I will load those.

And at the rate I am going through them on safari, I am glad to say I should be covered for at least 20 years!

Saeed-
I guess we'll just have to get RAB to load some "hot" ones in his 375Wby or RUM, send him on a mission and get him to report on their usefullness.

Still there, Saeed?

Your thoughts, please. At this point in time, how would you catagorize the pluses in employing the larger casing to achieve the, now desired, 2,650 fps?

Assuming, for arguments sake, that you could likely load the 300 "X" to within 75fps of this figure in the H&H, are you contemplating any change in case selection? Just as an aside, I'm getting 2,600+ fps with a 26" tube and molycoating.

Nickudu,

I am afraid I've had relatively bad luck with velocity as far as the 375 H&H is concerned.

I have loaded ammo for dozens of them, and for some reason I was not able to get much over 2500 fps with a 300 grain bullet before running into pressure problems.

Most of these rifles have been of Europaen manufacture.

Also, I would prefer to use a relatively large case and down load it a bit for use in Africa in the summer.

Most of my hunts have been in October, and during that time the heat is really on in Zimbabwe. To the extent that the rifle stock becomes too hot to handle, let alone the metal parts or loaded ammo in the belt.

But I will tell you what, I cannot imagine my 375/404 doing any better than the standard 375H&H, except the personal satisfaction I get by hunting with a cartridge I developed myself, used in a rifle I have built myself.

Mickey1

Here are a few more 375 caliber Barnes X bullets that I have recovered from animals I have shot.

Thank You, Saeed. 100%

John S,
I will have to beg off the "hot" loads and trust the experiences of Saeed reported here. Looks like he has done it all. I would gladly try to duplicate his field experiences, though it would probably require me to be reincarnated and travel back in time.

2528 fps with the Barnes X 300 grainer in my 375 H&H with 24" barrel is as "hot" as I get.

I will have to load the 23" 375 RUM and the 24" 375 Weatherby down to no more than 2700 fps with whatever 300 grainer.

It still looks like the 375 Weatherby is king of practicality. 2650 to 2700 fps in a 24" barrel is easy, and it will deliver the 375 H&H factory loads in usable fashion in a pinch.

I know that some unusually fast rifles in 375 H&H exist, but, like Saeed, I haven't owned any myself.

However, my factory Remington 375 RUM with 26" barrel does close to 2800 fps with the 300 grain Swift factory ammo, but so does my 23" Winchester barreled CZ in 375 RUM. The latter has a custom chamber of minimum tolerance and maybe the bore is tighter too? Maybe pressures are higher in the 23" gun?

I have to wonder about the 24" 375 H&H that is moving a 300 grain bullet much over 2550 at the muzzle. Is it doing so with top pressures that might be a problem when the rifle gets too hot to hold in the African summer sun?

Maybe a black stock and black finished metal is not good for hot, sunny exposure, as it absorbs too much heat?

Maybe a parasol bearer to accompany the rifleman?

Or maybe just use a bigger case and stick to the 2650 fps? That seems to work.

Or maybe those 300 grain 2450 fps 375 H&H factory loads are a no-brainer, good enough, margin for error all around?

Saeed
Do you recover most of the bullets? Have you found any differance in the bullets depending on speed or caliber? I don't mean to be a pain but on the other threads most of the posters, whether pro or con, talk about bullets that completely penitrate most of the time.

Geez, I'm starting to sound like Todd E.

One issue that I ran into when playing in the high performance cartridge game was bullet performance. When I started using several Dakota cartridges for hunting, I quickly found that the extra 200 fps + that the cartridge was capable of had a negative impact on bullet performance. When I started load development, I was working under the assumption that higher velocity = better penetration. In practice, nothing could be further than the truth. (attention Ultra Mag owners)

Pushing the wrong bullet faster only decreases terminal performance in my experience. If you want more speed like the Dakota, Lazzeroni, and Ultra Mag are capable of, you need to carefully consider the bullet. Anyone who has ever shot a lot of hyper velocity varmint rounds can attest to speed and bullet performance. Frangible bullets at high impact speeds explode on impact and literally dissolve within inches. No penetration achieved. Likewise, push a �standard� hunting bullet to the extreme, and terminal performance will suffer. You must select the appropriate bullet based upon the intended impact speed. Many otherwise appropriate hunting bullets simply do not perform well when pushed too hard.

I do not have any field experience with Barnes (never could get them to shoot straight) However, in the 7mm and .338 range I switched from the standard Nosler Partition to the non-moly Gold. In .416 I switched to the new MK II jacketed Woodleigh Weldcore and the Solid. In .458, I have shot the Woodleigh Weldcore, however, I just about turned the bullet inside out at 2400 fps. I only shoot solids now with the knowledge that I will achieve full penetration - watch that backstop!

As far as the larger case capacity and performance possible with the .375 Dakota, Saeed, Lazzeroni, Weatherby, and Ultra Mag, I would much rather have a larger case with a moderate load, than to push a �standard� cartridge to its extreme. This only leads to some nasty reproductions sooner or later. Stick a bolt in a hunting situation and you could lose the animal. Stick a bolt in a dangerous game situation and you could lose something more valuable - your life, or the life of your client. Just because you have gotton away with something a few hundred times does not make it safe or intelligent. IF you feel the need to gain a few fps, select the appropriate launching platform.

I don�t know how many people remember this, but when Roy Weatherby first introduced his line of cartridges, many folks ran to Africa with them thinking the extra performance would be great in the field. Considering the quality and design of hunting bullets available at this time, most Weatherby folks came back from Africa will plenty of dismal bullet performance stories. It took a long while for the bullet manufacturers to catch up to the terminal performance of the Weatherby.

Seems we are repeating history with the Dakota, Lazzeroni, and Ultra Mag cases.

[ 01-12-2003, 22:03: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Saeed,

Thank you for posting the results you got using your 375/404 with the 300 Barnes X-Bullet at 2,650 fps. Your comparison with the 375/416 results -- less penetration -- is of particular value.

I have a lot of respect for Craig Boddington; I think he is a great gun magazine writer. But that is also the rub, he is a gun magazine writer. So we get articles from him that talk about several calibers, such as this SCI magazine article on the options in the .375. I know that the gun makers are very interested in having Craig write articles that discuss several calibers vice articles that aim us to buying only one rifle. It is all part of the market place we buy in.

Fortunately we also have the AR resource.

jim dodd

It must be assumed that a fellow knows what's hot and what's not in his rifles. Lest we forget, there are physical characteristics of the H&H casing which offer real advantage in regard to feeding, extraction and oftentimes, magazine capacity. IMHO, there are no discernable terminal advantages in the use of larger than H&H casings in .375 caliber on dangerous game and a questionable few for plainsgame at distance, for the vast majority of shooters.

Where's Ray when you need him?

IIRC, he developed, with a bullet maker, a 350 grain 375 H&H bullet, because the standard loads over penetrate, and, when shooting animals, buffalo in particular, in herds, this is a serious problem.

So, if I can extrapolate from his actions, the 375 H&H, with 300 grain bullet, penetrates, or, over penetrates, about as well as anything out there.

Now, isn't this suspiciously similar to the same claims made by such cartridge makers as Garrett,
and, cartridge designers, like Keith, and Linebaugh????

DR S