RAB-
I think in 375H&H a person is better off staying in 2500fps area, regardless of bullet type. The vast majority of barrels will not do 2650fps without way too much pressure, IMO. I have spoken at length on this issue with Mike Brady of North Fork bullets because he has done exhaustive testing with his Oehler pressure equipment. His comments can/will open the eyes of someone who thinks their ultra fast loads are perfectly safe. High pressure can be present long before you get sticky bolt lift or flattened primers. Measuring case head expansion alone doesn't necessarily reflect high pressure either.
I also agree with ZD about chosing wisely when making a bullet selection for the RUMs and similar type cartridges. However, in this case I have to believe that 2700fps is not enough extra to cause bullet failures with common "premium" type bullets. Solids are another story and I'm not after extra velocity with them.
Saeed, while likely having the most experience with a "hot" 375, has done the majority of his hunting with only one bullet, the 300gr X. This really doesn't answer the questions I have about how the various other premiums will behave at 2700+fps. RAB, you're just going to have to use that RUM @ 2700fps and find out.

Now, isn't this suspiciously similar to the same claims made by such cartridge makers as Garrett,
and, cartridge designers, like Keith, and Linebaugh????

DR S

Seems as if your not the only one that caught Saeed's statements concerning lower velocity and deeper penetration.

Too bad Randy Garrett took such a beating here with the same theory.

Roger QSL

John S,
Oh. I see. Then it shall be my calling to test various 300 grain .375 bullets at 2650 to 2700 fps. Very well.

Roger,
Saeed chose higher velocity than the standard 375 H&H, for best results with his bullet, the 300 grain X-Bullet. He did note diminishing returns or bad results at the "ultra" velocities and backed off to 2650 fps, it appears. We are not talking about hard cast lead bullets here. A lot of Saeed's shots were taken at longer ranges to be sure, so his fast loads drop down to 375 H&H muzzle velocity at impact range, but still are not too fast for close range shots with the X-Bullet.

Another point might be that the faster loads are getting more rpms in a 12" twist barrel and might be marginally more stable near and far once gone to sleep, and maybe they "go to sleep" faster?

A little extra velocity improves performance with the X-Bullet, eh? I can believe it.

Now for the other bullets ...

RAB-
Yes, now you have it! Get some 300gr Fail Safe bullets, maybe some 270grs as well, plus North Forks and Swifts. Maybe even try some of your beloved GS bullets! Load them all up to 2700 or so and whack some plains game (large size) and a couple of buffalo. It won't be conclusive but at least we'll have something to talk about!

Nick - "It must be assumed that a fellow knows what's hot and what's not in his rifles."

To hijack your statement, and use it a little differently - This is �THE� assumption which gets more re-loaders in trouble than any other factor. When you indiscriminately push the envelope beyond documented limits, you�re begging for trouble. I have seen too many �educated� people exchanging dangerous reloading information at the range and over the Internet to �assume that a fellow knows what's hot and what's not in his rifles�. If you are hanging your ass off the pressure cliff and you have not bothered to shoot across a chronograph or had a pressure test conducted, then cooler heads must prevail. Someone needs to question the genius behind such practices.

ZERO DRift - "I would much rather have a larger case with a moderate load, than to push a �standard� cartridge to its extreme."

My post was in response to your statement in which you are assuming the other fellow doesn't know what he's doing. We're on the Internet. If a fellow says a load is O.K. or too hot in his rifle what choice have we other than to assume he knows of what he speaks and has the good sense to begin well below any load recommendations he might receive. Later .....

Nick - Thanks, but I would rather not make that assumption especially when all published load data clearly indicates otherwise. I choose to trust the professional test data, over an assumption, or the �hey, looks good to me� assessment from someone on the Internet.

This is the same logic I apply in choosing NOT to shoot hand loads prepared by someone else... Even if they come from you - someone who I do trust.

Wow I wander off for a day of Mt. lion chasing here and come back to two pages of this topic now!

I'm glad Saeed paid a visit and explained this, pretty much as I recall our past conversation. I know I use my 375HH with 270 grain bullets most of the time. I was unable to see a difference in performance between the 2850 fps velocity which was identical to the Hornady Factory ammo I shot, and the 2800fps velocity I normally load to. As far as the 300 grain bullets go, 2600fps is not a problem in several rifles with 72 grains of RL-15. I've seen it now in plenty of different 375's to know it's a real good load. However is that extra 50 FPS actually going to gain you much over the 2550 which is also easily achieved?

As I wrote in a previous post. If the 375HH can't do the job you want maybe you need a bigger bullet not higher velocity! Consider just how many thousands of animals have been killed with the 375HH and plain old factory style cheap as dirt bullets from the early 1900's til this day.

Is there really a need to "improve" on that? Look at the old original ballistics published with the loads John Taylor used and the crap bullets he had. Yet he was dumping game left and right. With 100fps more velocity easily achieved today with better powder, and the huge improvement in bullets, what's the point of pushing 2800-3000 fps with the 300's?

I hate to say this but I hear it all the time when I'm working in Africa from my friends and co-workers there.

Americans are never happy with things they always have to make them faster and faster or bigger and bigger. Or bigger and faster. I agree with this and I am an American. Yeah we tinker the daylights out of firearms and ammo. But it's also where all the improvements come from. I'm not much of a tinkerer with guns and ammo. But I'm grateful for those who are.

I suppose my feelings are different on the power of rifles since I have a 458 Lott. If the 375HH can't get the job done for my intended species then I just bring the Lott. I can't see the need speaking strictly for myslef to over load the 375HH or to make the case so much bigger that the bullets can't handle the impact.

Rab,

Point well taken.

I believe I'm in agreement with most here, regarding higher velocity. Deeper penetration, assuming the bullet jacket doesn't separate, equals higher velocity.

I do however respect Garret's beliefs, as he has been involved personally in many load developments. After reading Saeed's post about the loads he has worked up, I also take to heart what he has to say about the 375.

I've been trying to get my hands on a very heavy 375 for testing. This slug should weight at 400 grains, and be a hard cast, with gas check. Would like to send it out about 1700 fps, and compare the penetration to that of a 300 jacketed. I had originally thought 2200/2300 would be fine for this slug, but after having mentioned this to Randy Garrett, he suggested a slower speed would be better for this load.

I believe a 1 in 12 twist would be ok, but shooting would soon clear this up. Still waiting to here from someone out there who has worked with this heavy of a slug in 375. I know Rhino makes a 350 gr. 375, but have not seen any data from anyone loading this bullet.

Roger QSL

JJ-
Yes, I think we Americans do like to push the envelope on things. But hey, that's why we are who we are and what we are. If it weren't for us, there would be no Swift or Barnes or any other premium bullets. Nor would there be any 458s, 458Lotts,416Rem., etc for them to use. Wonder what they'd be saying if that were the case?
I agree that if one is on a mission for the ultimate in power it is much better to get a bigger bullet, but that isn't what I'm after on this topic.
Where I believe the "hot" 375 fits is for a hunter who might just feel the H&H isn't quite enough but doesn't want to opt for a 416. He can handle the recoil but prefers the versatality the 375cal has compared to bigger bores. He might also believe that the extra 200fps gives him a better effect with good soft points. I know it is almost blasphemy for anyone to say anything bad about a 375H&H, but that's tough. I am one who isn't so enamored with the old bitch.
Think about this. How many people talk or worry about improving the 416 Rigby? Very few and not enought to worry over. How many attempts/versions are there of an "improved" 458? I believe you have one of them. If the 375H&H was so perfect as is, why have so many "improved" 375s been created? I always figure where there's smoke there's fire.

[ 01-13-2003, 03:55: Message edited by: John S ]

Roger,

Woodleigh lists a 350gr. .375 caliber bullet.

Joe

This "which .375" discussion is very close to the heart for me. From my point of view if you are only going to ever have one .375 then the balance falls clearly in favour of the .375 H&H. But what happens if like me or others on this forum when you already have multiple .375 H&H's. As good as it is you can only have so much vanilla ice cream for peats sake!!

I have 3 H&H's and plan to convert one to the .375 RUM. The main arguments against has been the recoil and whether that extra 200fps increases the effectiveness in any way of the .375. I read somewhere where that it does and brings the .375 bore up to .416 territory.(Maybe or maybe Not?) I don't know that using the heavier bullets eg.Woodleig 350gn is the answer to utilising the additional speed of the RUM as its recommended impact velocities are lower that that for the 300gn or 270gn. ie. They were designed for the H&H velocities.

As to the velocities out of the H&H, I too am an unlucky one since I have a hard time pushing the Woodleighs past 2650fps(270gn) and 2550fps (300gn) out of a 24 inch barelled Sako. In comparison factory 270gn Failsafes only do 2480fps in my rifle. (That's well less than 4,000 ft-lbs)

In this light I think a .375 such as a RUM presents a real alternative and maybe a significant improvement in performance especially in factory loads. Hopefully I get to find out for myself soon if a .375RUM is worth it. But I'm keeping my other 2 H&H's just in case.

"I suppose my feelings are different on the power of rifles since I have a 458 Lott. If the 375HH can't get the job done for my intended species then I just bring the Lott. I can't see the need speaking strictly for myslef to over load the 375HH or to make the case so much bigger that the bullets can't handle the impact."

YES!!!!!
WE COMPLETELY AGREE ON THIS ONE.

John S said:
"
Where I believe the "hot" 375 fits is for a hunter who might just feel the H&H isn't quite enough but doesn't want to opt for a 416. He can handle the recoil but prefers the versatality the 375cal has compared to bigger bores. He might also believe that the extra 200fps gives him a better effect with good soft points. I know it is almost blasphemy for anyone to say anything bad about a 375H&H, but that's tough. I am one who isn't so enamored with the old bitch. "

NO!!!!
The reason for the improved 375's is they are on the limit of what you can use at long range.

The 375, at 400-500 yards, an american, reasonable, range, for shots at those huge moose, and, huge bears, delivers a flat trajectory, with max recoil, for long shots.
That's the reason for improved 375 H&H's, like the Rum.

A bigger bullet, is not a solution for this situation. This, not the close range scenario, as is so typical of African big game hunting.

In Africa, the bigger, slower bullet, is an excellent solution, not the higher velocity 375.

DR S

[ 01-13-2003, 09:39: Message edited by: Socrates ]

Interesting discussion.

My conclusion from this discussion is what I maintain in the first place, that the .375 H&H is just fine the way it is.

In my experience, terminal performance is more a function of the bullet used, though I have not experimented with each over a range of velocities.

Will

Mickey:
One of the professional reloaders hunts Elk, and bears, in Alaska. His professional hunter suggested the merits of the 375 RUM.

His argument is the big bears, and the big elk, get that way, in Alaska, because they are smart, and, know at what range a gun works. That's how they got to be huge bears, in the plus 1600 hundred pound range, and huge elk.

The Rum gives you a relatively flat trajectory, at very long range, and retains enough power to anchor either of the above.

However, you have to be an excellent shot, and used to hard kicking rifles...

The hunter suggested the only time you would get close enough to use another caliber, is if the bear is hungry, and you look like dinner...and, that would be the BEST reason for a high energy rifle
DR S

[ 01-13-2003, 10:41: Message edited by: Socrates ]

The biggest thing I have shot with a 375 is a toss up between a big Red kangaroo and a pig, so I cant comment on 2500, 2600, 2800 on big game.

But I think I can comment on velocities for the 375 H&H and spread over many rifles and many years.

Basically, most powders are either a bit quick burning or a bit slow burning for the 375.

Undoubtedly Reloader 15 is the best powder for the best combination of velocity and accuracy.

JJHacks velocities are a bit higher with Re15 and 24 M70 barrel than what I have had from 26 inch and also Model 70 24 inch.

Having said that, the Reloader powders do vary. I think the manufactures of the powder put a lot of powder in the Norma "reject" box but the Alliant "reject" box takes a month or two to fill

My velocities have been around the 2830 to 2850 with 270 Hornady and 76 grains of Reloader 15 from 26 inch barrels. That was tested in 3 barrels, but the barrels are all by the same maker and chambered by the same JGS reamer.

73 grains of Re 15 did just over 2600 in the 3 barrels with 300 grain Noslers and 300 grain Hornady Round Noses.

Both the 73 grains and 76 grain loads were about 1 grain or so before accuracy fell off. All three barrels were on a Rem 700 action in an aluminium bench rest stock we use out here and the action had a Jewell trigger set at around 2 ounces.

I have not used the 300 grain Barnes X, but I suspect the loads would need to be backed off a bit and would expect a 26 inch barrel to peak out at 2500 to 2550 with Re 15, if peak accuracy is the goal.

Now move away from Re 15 and the 375 will top out from a Model 70 at usually less that 2500 with 300s and about 2600 plus with 270s.

The 4064 type powders are a bit quick and the 4350s a bit slow, especially if longer pointed bullets are used.

It is some years since I have used IMR 4350, but 82 grains with 300 Hornady Round nose use to do around 2610 to 2640 from Model 70s, but very very compressed. 86 grains with 270 Hornady Spire point did between 2820 and 2860. To use 86 grains only a neck sized case can be used and the 270 Hornady Spire point is seated way out and the load very compressed.

I would also add that the degree of compression in the above loads means they are usually shit loads when they have been stored. Heavy compression in conjucntion with fired brass in my experience is frozen up poweder. There is no ay you will ge these loads into new brass. New brass always does better with stored loads.

In a nutshell, without Re 15, the 375 H&H is 2450 to 2500 with 300 grainers and 2600 to 2650 with 270 grainers.

In my opinion the best loads for the 375 come from the 3031 and 4064 type powders. Reloader 15 increases the recoil and adds a loud "bark".

Anyone who needs to use Re 15 in the 375 is better off with a 375 Imp, 375 RUM or 378 Wby.

A 375 H&H should not be about being caught up in finding the powder like Re 15 that gives it some extra velocity and then hope your rifle shoots with it. Afterall, what do you do if the rifle won't shoot Re 15.

A 375 H&H should be about relaxation

JJHACK is mounting the praise of the 375 H&H on 2850 with 270 grainers.

To me, 2850 f/s with 270 grainers is like expecting the woman with the big tits to be a computer programmer and also do your tax returns. Alternatively, it could be like expecting the woman who can program the computer and do your tax to have big tits and ask you "are you ready for the meal or should I wait a bit longer."

The analogy may not be applicable in your case, but I am sure you know what I mean.

Mike

Gentlemen,

A point was raised about the ranges invloved in my hunting.

I would say over 90% are at less than 200 yards. Of these at least half would have been at less than 100 yards.

Two specific occasions might be of interest.

I shot a buffalo bull across the river from us. I was not too sure of his angle in relations to us. He was not facing away from us as much as I thought he was, so my shot was placed too far back. He took off at the shot, and I shot him twice while he was running.

The first shot was probably at around 120 yards.

One hit him in the rear end, and we found the bullet in his stomach. This was at over 150 yards, but less than 200.

One bullet hit him while he was running broadside. It went into the upper part of the stomach, and went completely through. This was probabaly close to 250 yards.

He stopped at what we estimated to be over 300 yards, and turned around, looking at us at a slight angle.

The fourth bullet entered at the junction of his neck and shoulder, going through the heart. We found this bullet in the chest not far from the heart.

I have shot impalas either facing or looking the other way. And those at the shorter ranges we always found the bullet after penetrating the whole lenth of the body.

On one occassion, I shot an impala at what we measured to be about 420 yards. The bullet entered next to his tail, and went out at the neck/shoulder junction.

The worst penetration incident I recall was a Barnes X 300 grain fired from the 375/416 Rigby Impoved (Lazzeroni). I shot a waterbuck looking way from us, at around 80 yards. The bullet entered at the rear of one of his legs, broke the hip, and was found just ahead of the hip bone. This bullet had a muzzle velocity of 3140 fps.

Saeed: and your point is????

I'm not arguing that you are a fantastic shot. I have watched that little deer go down, running away, at 270, plus yards, with a 375 HH.

That's not the issue.

The issue is, is their any reason for anyone to use an improved version of the 375(other than they came up with a better version, and they like it)?

Yes, if they need a flat shooting, long range, heavy hitting, big bore, and, they are not in the 99% group for handling recoil.

While I do not own an improved version of the 375, if, I have need of a rifle that is more potent, it is likely that I will go to the 458, since I am NOT intrested in anything so far away that it's not going to kill me if I miss.

Others situation, and conditions, maybe different...

DR S

Mike 375,

Just a little off the topic. You have posted many times here AR.

I was under the impression, long guns were banned in Australia. What are the current gun laws concerning the owning and use of Rifles and shotguns?

Roger QSL

I have an old Speer reloading manual. They have a couple real intresting points on the 375 H&H.

One: It fires a number of different weight bullets to the same POA.

Two: With a 235 spire point, at 2900 fps, the cartridge makes an awesome long range rifle, suitable for anything but elephant or buffalo, at extreme range.

Suffice to say, it's longevity is due to it's unique place in the cartridge world.

DR S

[ 01-14-2003, 09:26: Message edited by: Socrates ]

Roger

Semi auto rifles and shotguns are banned unless required for your occupation or member of clay target club.

Pump action shotguns are banned.

Guns are registered.

To buy a rifle a Permit to Purchase is required and this invloves supplying a "genuine reason".

Genuine reason is satisfied if you are a member of a club. Basically a formality.......at least at the current time.

It is a pain in the arse and the days are gone where you just went in and bought a rifle to try and traded it back in a week later.

You can own any calibre and as many as you like.

That is a brief outline.

Mike

Socrates

When loaded to full power with each bullet, 375s typically group the 235 grain a fair bit above the 270 grainer and the 270 grainer usually is quite a bit above the 300 grainer.

If loads are backed off on the lighter bullets they will then shoot closer to 300 grainers. Do that and have a rifle with open sights that does shoot that well, then one could claim the 375 shoots different bullet weights to the same point.

The 375 is the same as other calibers that havea small case capacity in relation to the bore, that is, they don't shoot different loads close together.

458 Win and 450 Ackley with full loads for each bullet will commonly place the 350 grain Hornady anywhere from 5 inches to 12 inches above the 500 grain Hornady.

Calibers like 270, 7mm Rem and others with big case capacity for the bore size are the ones that are likely to place different loads close together.

Calibers like 375 and especially the 458s are also likely to shoot different powders or different brands of bullets of the same weight to different points.

Mike

Well..... It sounded good.

Mike375 - The destroyer of dreams.

Mike,
Do you have IMR-4320 and Varget powder available there? I have loads with these powders that approach or exceed 2,800 with the 270's. The 4320 shoots about as tight as the Rl-15 and gives 2,820 (Moly), the Varget shoots tighter than the RL-15 and gives 2,775. Effectively, one is as good as the other. I agree with all you stated above, especially in regard to points of impact with .375 bullets of lighter weight. At similar pressures, the 210's shoot 6-7" higher than the 270's at 100 yards. The 235's 4-5" higher and the 250's 2" higher. As you say, generally, one would need to reduce charge weights to get them closer and the lighter the bullet, the greater reduction required. Another option is to play with other powders until you hit the right combination, which I'm sure you have tried but then you lose the velocity. Another reason I stick with the 270's as my plainsgame bullet is that the point of impoact is only 2" higher than my 300 grain solid loading. The others are simply too far out to work with.

[ 01-14-2003, 19:00: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

When I zero'd my 375HH years ago with 300 grain bullets at 100 yards I was surprised to see the 270 were grouped exactly above the 300's about 2.5-3". What I saw after that surprised me more. Nearly every gun these two bullet weights were shot out of did the same thing. I would guess now that I have seen or heard about a dozen rifles which will do this. It may not be really common with all guns but it sure seems to be with the ones I have seen.

That makes the two bullet weights fantastic for the safari hunter. The 300's can be used for the big stuff and the super flat shooting 270's can be used for everything else, or for the more open areas where shots will be typically longer.

You got it!

This discussion concerning POI with various bullet weights raises a question - how many re-loaders would go on a hunt using different bullet weights in the same rifle (any caliber)?

Personally, I never have, nor have I ever run across anyone who does. For instance, if I am faced with shooting plainsgame and DG, then I take two rifles (as I always do). I selected an appropriate bullet weight for each cartridge, work an accuracy load, and stick with it. The only alteration in my loading has been softs vs. solids. Then, it becomes more than just another inane discussion. Achieving the same POI becomes very important. Fortunately, I have found Woodleigh softs and solids (my big game bullet of choice) to print the same POI in my .416s and .458s.

Other observations?.....

[ 01-14-2003, 19:28: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Except for one safari where I used some 350gr X bullets in my 416 along with some 400gr loads, I never mix bullet weights. I like each rifle set up for one load then there is never any confusion. The big bores using solids and softs present the only scenario where I take two loadings.

ZERO - If I understand correctly, I think I did it one time only, when I first settled on the .416/350 "X" as my very clever plainsgame / first shot on buffalo loading, along with a 400 solid which happened to shoot to a 2" combined group (I've since, used the 400's). I wouldn't consider doing so in .375, as the 300 grainers are clearly best for buffalo, there and with the larger calibers, I haven't given it any consideration, as the matching weight softs & solids all shot close enough and buffalo was all I planned to take with that rifle.

Zero Drift,

I took several loads for my 30/404 last June to hunt in South Africa.

They include bullets like the Sierra Match Kings, Nosler Ballistic Tip, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, Swift A-Frames and the Nosler Partition.

At least in my own rifle, they shot to teh same point of impact at 100 yards. I have used them to over 400 yards, without any sight adjustment.

In my experience, some rifles tend to group most of their shots together, regardless of the make of the bullet, while others tend to throw them all over the place.

Saeed - I remember your test well. The question is, other than your bullet test, do you make a habit of shooting different bullet weights in the same hunting rifle?

JohnS,
I did so much "BS'g", I forgot to mention that if I did want more in .375, I'd likely join you in selecting the well balanced .375 Weatherby. Question ... have you examined the "JRS"?

No sir I don't.

In fact, I was talking to my friend and PH Roy Vincent while he was here last year of how to go about shooting all these different bullets in the rifle without going through the hassle of re-sighting it.

We decided for teh shorter ranges encountered in the bush, it won't make that much of a difference. But, when teh ranges open up, I might need to re adjust my sight.

As it happened, there was no requiremnet for that.

As a rule, I take only two loads for my 375/404. One with the Barnes X bullet and one with solids for elephant.

A few years back, I did take a few loads at different velocities, but again, I had no reason to re-sight my rifle.

I've been studying the merits of the 375 WBY and I'm convinced that is "the" 375 IF it is your only rifle. As far as "energy", I don't believe animals larger than deer are greatly affected by it. The real beauty of the 375 WBY is it's marked improvement in trajectory over the good ol' H&H.
I disagree with JJ Hack about Weatherby's optimistic velocity specs. I own four Weatherby calibers and with factory loads ONLY, they all meet or exceed published velocities. Factory loads out of today's reloading manuals just don't achieve it. If you are lucky enough to own one of the old Weatherby guides, you can duplicate factory velocities with Norma MRP powder. Matter of fact, all my loads with MRP, print to the same POI as factory WBY offerings.

There's no doubt in my mind that were I to make myself a custom gun ( or if Weatherby would pull it's head out of it's ass and chamber it on a regular basis) the 375 WBY is at the top of my list. One more observation on 375 and bullet usage. The 235gr is a pretty worthless bullet. It starts out fast but bleeds velocity pretty quickly and with it's poor SD, I wouldn't use it on anything larger than deer.

As for the 270gr, I don't have much use for it either. I much prefer the SD of the 300s, but more importantly,I can get solids and Aframes ( my personal favorite) to shoot to the same POI. In my view, while a 270gr is great for plains stuff, it just doesn't cut it for buffalo or other large, tough skinned game. jorge

Jorge, Wow I have not seen you here in a long time! where have you been. Maybe just missing you on different threads?

I suppose they make different bullets for the hundreds of applications and different peoples opinions on them. When you say the 270's are only really good for plains game and not the big stuff I would agree 100%. It's why they are the best bullet for the majority of hunting. What's the big stuff? Buffalo, elephant, hippo, rhino? Hmmmm the 300's are best for 4 animals and the 270's for dozens of animals. Since the four listed as "big" animals are shot at close range( by a small number of hunters) in nearly every case 100 yards or less, the 300's work perfectly for them. The other lighter species which make up the vast majority of hunting will be well served with a 270 grain higher velocity flatter shooting bullet.

When your rifle is sighted in with the 300's at 100 yards the 270's are about 2.5-3" high and exactly above them. That makes the Zero approx 240-250 yards in many rifles. I have checked for this many times. The 270's additional velocity and the impressive expansion with my favorite bullet the Swift A frame must be seen to be apprieciated.

"Canuck" one of the moderators from this site used my rifle and 270 grain loads to take all his game in Africa in 2002. He was shooting the 270 swift A frames and used one bullet per animal none had to be looked for after the shot. We recovered only two bullets from all his game. The exits were impressive and the blood trails although not needed were great.

For all around hunting with the 375HH a premium 270 grain bullet is a magnificent performer with it's flatter then 30/06 trajectory and fantastic accuracy. The 300's win hands down for the 4 big animals, I agree. This happens to be one of the best cartridges in many rifles for using both weights of bullets. I think the reason it's not a very common practice to use multiple weights of bullets is that very few rifles and cartridges can accomplish this dual weight strategy. As a matter of fact I don't think I have ever seen another rifle cartridge that shoots bullets of different weight as well together.

Oh as far as Weatherby rifles go, I'm sure the 26" barrel rifles were closer to the published velocites but the paperwork they had out at the time I owned the 300 showed the velocities from a 24" barrel like mine had. With a 24" barrel you would be well over pressure to achive the published velocities,.......... Well at least from my particular rifle. I also agree as I said dozens of posts ago. The only practical improvement to the existing 375HH cartridge is the 375 weatherby. I still don't understand what those guys were thinking when they went to the 378 Case. The 375 weatherby was a great case design and allowed the use of 375HH shells in a pinch.

Oh well what do we know!

Nickudu-
Yes, I did consider the JRS but as it is still a true wildcat I passed. At least nowadays the Wby is legitimate and as there is no performance difference I saw no good reason to pick the JRS.

I just came back from a range sessionw ith the 375Wby. I was shooting a variety of bullets to see which ones grouped the best and would print together. No load juggling, same charge in all loads except the one used for the 260gr Nosler BT.
The 300gr Swift printed 2.25" above point of aim, the 260gr BT printed 3.25" above aim point and also 1" right, 300gr BBC was dead on and 300gr Hornady RNs were 1/2 low and 3/4" left of aim point.

[ 01-14-2003, 22:56: Message edited by: John S ]

JJ: You pose a cogent argument for the 270gr bullet. I just can't get mine to do that. My rifles loves 300gr Swifts and Hdy solids to the same POI at 2550 MV. Granted one of the beauties of the premium bullet, is that it allows you to go to a lighter weight to achieve flatter trajectories. I guess I just like the 300s better and I can't fault your logic, particularly if your rifle shoots the 270 and 300s as you describe. I'll keep my 300s though and someday get that 375 weatherby!!! take care, Jorge

jorge-
From past sessions, I know my rifle prints the 300gr Swifts and 300gr Woodleigh solids to same POI. If I were taking this rifle on a plains game only hunt I would throw out the solids and possibly try those 260s, especially the new bonded models coming soon. But man, I don't think I'd care to subject myself to the recoil just for plains game shooting. The 300Wby is much easier and just as deadly on plains game.

JohnS,
Very exciting results, as they're all in a darn good group, right off the bat. You're going to wind up with something very sweet, indeed. Please fill us in as you progress.