SATURDAY AUGUST 25 2001

Zimbabwe only three months from famine

BY RICHARD BEESTON, DIPLOMATIC EDITOR

FOR the first time in its 20-year history Zimbabwe faces the threat of famine unless emergency food aid can be distributed to the country�s poor in the coming months.
According to a confidential Whitehall report prepared this month and seen by The Times, the production of maize, the staple diet for the black population, is down nearly a third on last year and shortages could become acute by November.

�They have basically got three months left,� a British official said. �They will need outside help or face food shortages,� the official added.

The World Food Programme now lists Zimbabwe, once one of the continent�s most productive nations, among its list of countries facing �exceptional food emergencies in sub-Saharan Africa�. Maize production this year is 1.47million tonnes, 28 per cent lower than last year and leaving a shortfall of half a million tonnes. Slumps in food production are not unusual in southern Africa, which is prone to droughts. This is, however, the first time that Zimbabwe will be unable to feed its population for entirely political reasons. Because of a related economic crisis it no longer has the foreign currency necessary to import food. What food is available is likely to be priced beyond many of the country�s needy.

Large parts of the farming sector have been brought to a standstill since last year�s policy of President Mugabe to allow so-called war veterans to seize land belonging to white farmers and people linked to the opposition.

To compound the problem, there are fears that foreign countries may be unable to assist starving Zimbabweans because hardliners in the regime in Harare do not want to admit that there is a problem. British officials say that Mr Mugabe will not want to admit that he needs outside help to feed his people as he prepares for a tough re-election battle next spring.

The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), which has attempted to mediate in the 18-month land battle, has drawn up an emergency relief plan, but is unable act until it is asked by the Government. �There is a plan ready to help Zimbabwe, but the Government has so far shown no urgency in responding to the crisis,� Morgan Tsvangirai, the leader of the main opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC), said.

While the world�s attention had been focused largely on the plight of white farmers, tens of thousands of black Zimbabweans were struggling to survive, he said.

Those most at risk are former black farmworkers who have been driven out of their jobs by land seizures as well as the urban poor, many of whom have lost jobs during the country�s economic troubles. The Foreign Office is hoping that, even at this late stage, pressure can be brought to bear on Mr Mugabe to halt the land seizures, restore law and order and reopen dialogue with outside countries.

Nigeria and South Africa are pressing Mr Mugabe to back down and will mediate between Britain and Zimbabwe at a foreign ministers� meeting in Abuja, the Nigerian capital, next month. Britain is under no illusions. It has withdrawn a standing offer to provide �36million to help to fund a peaceful land redistribution programme.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Those Brits (the gov't) are something else. First, they sell S. Rodesia own the river, and then use their money to continually screw things up.

That do-gooder mentality is perpetually promoting black rule in Zimbabwe but at the same time admit that it has been a total, and typical, failure.

I guess when you are a few thousand miles away, and don't have the same problems to deal with, you can tell other people how to live.

The Brits did such a good job the first time around, I really respect their opinion, this time around.

Will

Will,

It's not just the Brits. The good ole USA was right in there pitching as well.

And now we're silent.

At least the Brit Govt is willing to admit the problem exists now. You hear any outcry from DC?

Don

Don:

Not a peep out of Washington, except for the Senate resolution, which is of no effect.

Pouring money/food into Zim will only perpetuate the problem.

Will

quote:

---

Originally posted by ALF:
Gents:

It is fact, and i hang my head in shame as a SA citizen; but it was also SA that dropped Rhodesia in the dwang.

John Voster the then prime minister of SA and his sidekick "lang Hendrik" van den Berg ( the head of the BOSS )sold Rhodesia down the creek to gain favour with the americans.

This all transpired at an event historically refferred to as the infamous Bridge summit. This was a meeting in a train on the railway bridge over the Zambezi between the caprivi and Zambia.

Voster struck a deal with Kaunda to keep the USA off our case and thereby sold Rhodesia out forcing Smith to capitulate.

It was in vain for in 77 the USA emposed a total blockade in arms sales to SA, Arms much needed in the Angolan conflict that we were dragged into by virtue of US request.

Kenry Kissinger and the assistant secretary of state for african affairs Nathanial Davis called on Pik Botha the then minister of forign affairs for SA, for help in the angolan conflict.

The CIA was envolved in the armed conflict in Angola by supporting the FNLA against the MPLA. At that point UNITA was an outsider to the conflict and the americans were unable to determine which side UNITA would take.

In April of 75 the cubans entered the conflict and the CIA would certainly face defeat. Realising this Kissinger and Davis approached Botha and the BOSS and it lead to the invasion of Angola by the SADF.

Congress in the USA came to hear of this, actually just before the invasion and having or wanting nothing to do with anything remotely smacking of another Vietnam they forced Davis to resign.

US envolvement was instantly terminated and that left SA deep inside angola facing the Cubans. The US were not aware of the might and will of the SADF and even to our own generals suprise the expeditionary force into Angola swept right up to capital Luanda basically outrunning supply potential.

When US congress terminated support our troops were poised on the outskirts of Luanda with the Russians/ Cubans now threatening a massive direct airlift of troops into Angola. US policy on this was swift and decisive , they would have no part in a direct confrontation with the russians and much like the aftermath of Yom Kippur in Israel they forced a political hand in ordering SA back.

The withdrawl from Angola saw some bitter fighting and in subsequent vindication for the losses occurred in that time the conflict escalated into what was then to become the Angolan War.

---

Alf,

I got the same story from my PH this July in Mozambique. We here in North America are only told what they want us to hear. The story of the American intervention in Africa is a sad one. I didn't realise that you are South African. I couldn't figure out why such an ardent hunter would choose Prince Rupert, but you must like the rain. Like to hear about your hunting exploits in Africa and maybe I can help you in that regard in the Yukon. Let me know.

Jim

More letters requesting support are currently circulating:

Dear Everyone,

For those people on my list who don't know me, my name is Joy Moolman,a farmer's wife who lives in Karoi, which is a farming community in the north west of Zimbabwe.

Last Monday, a large intimidating group of Africans( probably about 40 or so) gathered at the home of the Barcley's, they were armed with sticks and knobkerries. The farmer and his wife, who are an elderly couple, were in fear of their lives as these people are volatile, heady with the
knowledge that whatever they do wrong will not be addressed, and they consider themselves in charge. The farmer pretended he was going to phone the district administrator to come and sort out any problems they thought they might have with the farmer, so they let him go inside his house.
Well, as you can well imagine, this poor man phoned the police instead. As per normal, the police said they did not have a spare vehicle to send, but could spare a constable on a bicycle to ride the 35 kilometres to get to the farm.
Another farmer then phoned the police to say he would uplift a detail. The police responded by saying they would not ride in a civillian vehicle. Let me just add here that illegal pegging of farms has been taking place this last 2 months and I know for a fact that transport for the team that pegged
our farm was provided every day for a week using a police land rover!
Also if a sqatter has any problem with the farmer at all, the farmer is reported and picked up for jail immediately. Right, back to our story.
Mr. Barcley got onto his radio network and radiod for assistance. With this business having gone on for the last 18 months, the only support we have is from each other. Two neighbours came round straight away to find the place barricaded. They let the rest of the neighbourhood know they were
breaking through to try to get the couple out of immenent danger. they broke through
and managed to get to the beseiged couple, they were attacked and beaten in their efforts.
The rest of the neighbourhood responded and arrived on the farm, about another 9 or so farmers to help.
These squatters/cowards/criminals who
can't face a man to man battle, had more than they bargained for with this group
of farmers going in to the rescue. Please note that this group of farmers consisted mainly of 60-70 year old men, joined by a couple of their sons!
The sqatters are mainly unemployed youth who are in their 20's.

The police asked the farmers to come to the cop shop to make their statements about the incident, which being law abiding citizens, they did. They were arrested the minute they walked through the doors, about 14 farmers, I think. They were thrown in jail overnight. Hamish Barcley, the son, went to the cop shop with a Chinhoyi farmer the next day to inquire what was going to happen to the farmers. The two were arrested. The
72 year old Presbytarian minister went with blankets for the chaps and was thrown into jail. The number in jail is now 20. We are still in our winter season with temperature at night down to 0 c, the farmers had no warm
clothing and prisons in this country are a joke. The one man, 72, suffered a heart attack and was allowed out. They had endless trouble in Chinhoyi with Whites assaulted in the streets with fists and knives. Our local Doc, Chris Lewis was kept busy. All traffic that had whites in
had rocks thrown at them and everyone in the town were ready to evacuate.
This road that passes through Chinhoyi leads to the Zambezi River, Kariba, Mana pools, Zambia, so has much traffic on it.

The court case was unable to continue the one day as Zanu P.F. supporters threatened everyones lives, once again no police
intervention. The case was remanded three times just to keep these farmers in prison
over the long weekend we are having, aptly named heroes weekend. Houses of Whites in Chinhoyi have been looted, the tension everywhere is tangible.

My husband, Theunis, is a buckshee farmer, successful, practical and a very clever man, We have 27 resettlers on our farm put on by this illegal resettling program. They are trying to displace our 60 families who work for us on the farm. We have no option but to stay here and try to get the situation
to resolve itself, a very daunting exercise. Yesterday the chaps in Karoi were radioed from Doma, a farming community close to Chinhoyi, to help evacuate all the women and children off the farms. The area responded
and many people were able to escape by road. Theunis, who is also a pilot,
eventually flew in to the main troubled area.
There was chaos and mayhem on the farms. Large groups of squatters were trashing and looting everyones farm in the district. The trouble had started two days previously and because police would not respond, it turned
into a free for all.
Theunis, in the plane, was used as an early warning system to tell which way the groups were going next, so the men left could evacuate their properties in enough time.

In the air they watched the total desecration of a property. All the contents of houses were removed and placed in the garden, Blacks helped themselves to what they wanted and trashed the rest. Tractors and trailers were being used to cart off maize and fertilizer belonging to the
owner. The farm labour were rounded up like sheep and had people hitting them with
sticks. They chased some cattle around the paddock hoping to catch one to slaughter. This plan failed, so they put four bulls into the cattle race and cut their throats as they stood. The bodies were loaded onto the trailer for their party!!! This was happening all over the district.

One of the Mannings family had their house attacked. Ant had to cut through his burglar bars at one end of the house to get his kids out, while he could hear them at the other end trying to cut their way in.

There was an official fly past for Mugabe in Harare to celebrate for the holiday so other air traffic was grounded. Eventually when they could fly planes pilots arrived from Harare to uplift more people out. Theunis
arrived home after a full day in Doma having flown for five hours. He and his co pilot were the lucky ones, they were able to sleep in their own beds last night. On the SABC news we heard that police were responding to
quiten the area, three days too late.

This morning, Sunday, at 7.30 he got another urgent request to go back into the area as all the strife was starting over. So much for the police force! We have been through a lot this year as farmers. Our lives have been threatened, our farming operations stopped, our homes taken away from us. For those who do not know me, I too have been
locked in my own surround by war vets/squatters two Saturdays ago, but that's
another story.

Why do we stick it out you may ask as every day gets harder. We remain here because we put our faith in God and hope that one day the people can see we are all Zimbabweans and hope for the best for our country and all the people who live here.

Please let people all over the world know about our plight by sending on this e-mail. These incidents I have described will affect the whole countrysoon if some action is not taken soon. Please take precautions when
travelling here, do not be hoodwinked into believing all is safe.
Please pray for the farmers in jail. Thanks for the time you have taken toread this.

Best wishes to all Joy Moolman P.S To all the people who watched the programme called Focus on SABC2 the other night, we thought the programme was very balanced as it showed both sides of the story. Theunis was one of the pilots who flew them to Karoi. Mark Hellam who spoke about his 5 year old daughter being traumatised is our neighbour.
___________________________________________________________

IT is not our policy to get involved with petitions on the internet -
but in my opinion, this is such an important issue that we should explore
every single possibility to use whatever means we have at our disposal to
put pressure on the Zimbabwean Government. It is for you to decide...

Alf that was the silliest thing I ever heard. To begin with Nobody has ever USED The South Africans, to say so belitles your countrymen and distort's history. The South Africanner's are, and never have been, anyones pawns. You dont build a 1st world nation out of dust by being a pawn.

South Africa vigourously pursued involvement in that conflict in order to cement her relationship with the west, despite Apartheid, actually they had the same reason's for developeing Nuclear weapon's.

In her defense South Africa was looking awfully alone back in the late '80's, with 50,000 Cubans on her border's. Its no secrets that South Africa was on "hair trigger" with those Nuc's and not only had Luanda targeted but also the Cuban division's.

That was South Africa's reason for making the bomb, to strongarm western involvement to end that conflict and get the foreign troop's out of Angola. In this the South Africans achieved their goal.

We didnt use them , they used us.That conflict was one step from going up to a World War , from a nuclear conflict. At the time South Africa had one of the most powerful war machines on the planet, they are still powerful.

OK, first the facts. It was Portugal that colonialized, terrorized, enslaved, and robbed from what is now modern day Angola. In 1884 the colonializing European Nation's sat down and partitioned Africa region's off among themselves, America was not there.

While the other European nation's abandoned their colonial empires in Africa, The Portugeuse held on in Angola until 1974. Thats when they were overthrown by the Angolan Nationalist group's, which included UNITA.

The different Nationalist groups then started fighting for more of the pie. Here's the breadown of what country supported what faction.

The U.S. and Zaire supported the FNLA.
The communist's were supportive of the MPLA.
South Africa backed UNITA. UNITA was based in the south of the country, bordering Namibia, which South Africa "annexed" against the wishes of the UN. Tho they had legitimate strategic reason's to do so.

The communist MPLA held Luanda and declared Independence in 1975. Castro then sent 15,000 troop's to counter South Africa's might. In 1981 South Africa invaded southern Angola and an 8 year bush war started against SWAPO guerrilla's, Castro sent in more troop's.

South Africa attacked Angola, and developed Nuc's, in order to force the West to accept them as allies, and , to try and get the Western Democracy's to turn an eye to Arpartheid.

South Africa got what it wanted from the '89 aggreement. All foreign power's left Angola and UNITA got important concession's, tho it all turned out to be nothing but ink on paper.

South Africa had her own Arm's industry. She was never dependent on U.S. arm's. In fact, I cant think of one major U.S made weapons system she ever fielded. South Africa has a history of stealing American military technology and either useing it , or , selling it to the highest bidder. Their leading arm's maker "Armscor" sold missile technology to Iraq dureing the Gulf war, which were used against Allied forces. The owner's of Armscor are currently trying to avoid extradition

Armscor has sold million's of dollars worth of missile's to China in 1984.

I really like South Africa and her people but they are not a bunch of puppets and victims who have been used and abused by the Western Power's. Its actually been the other way around ; They manipulated America into involvement in the Angola conflict and , thruout history, they have held the chess pieces far more often then theyv had to look at the board.

So now you have a more balanced fact sheet Jim. Investigate the matter yourself instead of believeing one side of an issue. I have never been in a foreign country that didnt feel they had a historical axe to grind against America, really makes ya wonder..........10

And the U.S. sold South Africa down the river, and you can see what a mess that has become.

S.A. should have nuked the Cubans/Ruskies in Angola and told the U.S. to pi** off.

S.A. should have told the U.S. and Britain to pi** off in the early 90's. The do-gooders have screwed them for good. Don't hear much about the mesh there now, do we?

Add Zimbabwe to the list.

The words of Winston Churchill rang as true today as they did then.."Nevaaaa trust big government" Damn he was a smart old drunk!!

A politition is a polititian and so will be the antichrist....ain't that scary?

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Alf the Cubans never did anything without the OK of their Soviet master's, especially in Africa.

Its a good thing ole Will wasnt in charge then. The RSA would be an ink-spot now, then we could have jumped in, out of "Yank Guilt" ,and maybe sacraficed NewYork and LA in order to protect the South African way of life of the 80's. Hey Will give the flag a spit on for me too.

Then there's Zim, and a thousand other countries weve sold out. How dare we not send our kids to die for a country with such good hunting, and to protect our fellow white man.Why not nuke them too ?

And the Polotics of the Africanner have always had one, and only one, interest at heart. And that is for themselves. So read up a bit on history Will before you spit on your own flag. The world is full of whiner, beggar Nation's that say we "sold em down the River".

But that doesnt keep them from putting their hands out still......10

Alf,

Im with you "buddy" on your general overview ... of cource everyone has an opinion and those opinions are respected ... BUT the thing that amazes me is that "often" those whom purport to know the situation better than anyone else, are those whom have never set foot in the conflict zones, or taken part in the actual wars ... that is part of the problem, the armchair critics seem to knows or have all the answers instead of actually taking some guidance from those whom have lived the fight, and walked those counties mentioned ....

at the end of the day, whichever way we want to skin the cat, let face facts, politically speaking the USA/UK governments of the time were basically "sh.t scared" themselves of upsetting or provoking the "Ruskies and Chinese" ... hell it did not take a rocket scientist to see that! it would be very interesting to see some of the classified documents of the time to get an insight into the facts !!

Regards, Peter

Peter that isnt true. If it wasnt for America this whole world would be communist.

The Govt. of the United States did not want the Govt. of the RSA dictating its policy thru their own arbitrary action's, which they made based on their own self interest.

Having been around more conflict zones then most people I'd have to say I'd rather talk about hunting then Polotics since I have about as much control over my Nation's action's as you do.

Beside's I dearly love the RSA and its people and I cant wait to get back.....good shooting."June is coming "........10

10 point,

I have to totally agree with you that each country bases it decisions upon "self interest" .... what a pity the bigger counties like the USA whom have the ( power and the clout ) to do something about these "rouge" dictators dont help when it is not in their best self interest, what ever happined to the old "help a friend" in need scenario !! then maybe I am living in a dream world to expect any help

As you say, we the people actually have no say in the matter, it is our governments whom dictate in their best interests, not necessarily the peoples best interest ..

PS: Just a thought, how come people like Milosvic and others get put on trial in a world court for subjudicating their populations, and Idi Amin, countless others, including more recently "comrade" Mugabe etc get away with it right in front of our eyes, what is the difference please, WHY is the "free world" scared off when it comes to Africa !!

let hunt and leave politics to the "crooks"

Peter

[This message has been edited by Balla Balla (edited 08-26-2001).]

Milosvic didn't go to a country we buy oil from.....and you see who Mugabe's new buddy is don't you....Gaddafi Duck!

DB Bill,

Its a very dirty and "crooked" game this politics thing, even in the good ol USA one cant trust the "pollies" can we !!! .... we never really know in this wonderful world we live in whom our friends are do we ?? one day they are on our side, the next they dont give a sh.t do they .... it just like a leaf blowing in the wind, it can land anywhere ...

PS: Didnt you guys cross swords previously with "G Duck" ... maybe it is time to test him out again and see what he is made of as he might be of interest seeing they have that thing the USA has an interest in OIL

Peter

[This message has been edited by Balla Balla (edited 08-26-2001).]

Im going to say one more thing on this and Im going to quit it. I want to begin with by saying that I I appreciate and value my Africanner and European friends here then I do any political arguement.

But I have to say that I find it pitiful when a Yank comes home and say's something to the effect of "Im so glad my PH opened my eye's to how we screwed the White controlled country's of Africa", or , "any country in the world". Now I have traveled extensivly thruout the world and when I was a member of "The War Corp." I got to hear many variation's of the "America screwed us" whine.

If it aint the Jap's saying "The Gai-Jinn bastards screwed us by dropping the Nuc on us" , or, "The Gai-Jinn screwed us by not supporting our birth to death corporate welfare economy" ; Then, Its the Africanner's saying "America screwed us by not letting us force them to support our racist apartheid Govt." , and , "Are screwing us by not sending their children to die so they can protect , and enrich, a small group of farmer's engaged in a race war we have nothing to d with.

Historical fact #1, The Apartheid Govt. of the RSA was a puppet state controlled by their Industrial/Military/Mining corporation's. They largely invaded Angola cause the place was dirt rich with oil and diamonds. Just like us in Vietnam they took their poor, and working class children, put them in uniform, spun them around, and told them that this dirty war was completely a war.

The RSA also "correctly" percieved that the Cuban and Russian military buidup was a threat.

The weapon's sale ban the U.S put on the RSA had little real effect on them. They had, and still have, one of the most technologically advanced weapon's Industry in the world. They , and Israel, stole, and bought thru 3rd party's many American weapons secrets and , not only copied them, but improved on many design's.

They have a long history of collusion with Israel in designing and produceing advanced weapons of war. The RSA has a very solid Industrial base. They are curently exporting an extremely advanced fighter aircraft that , for political reason's in exporting, they call a "advanced Training Aircraft".

The Leadership of several of their defense related indusry's, includeing Armscore and Fuch's Electronis, are currently fighting, and attempting to settle out of court, extradition to the U.S. for violation of numerous trade and weapons export law's.

One of the things Armscor is accused of is supplying Iraq, and Saddam, with advanced missile technology DUREING the Gulf war, most of all a ballistic missile targeting system that allowed the Iraquis to vastly improve the accuray of several of their missile system's, including the variation of the SCUD'S that they used against their "friends" the Israeli's.

You might remember that it was a SCUD that hit that Yank airbase chow hall that caused the single biggest head count we had in the war.

We have a very disgusting history of arming that madman also. I dont blind myself to the mistakes America has made in her past, as it seem's many other citizens of foreign countries do to themselves concerning America.

The South Africans shelved their nuclear weapons. Tho they still have the capability to bring their nuclear posture back on line. Along with the Israeli's they mostly used espionage and 3rd parties to join the "Bomb Club.

In a few short years they could no doubt match Israel's nuclear capability, which is much more extensive, lethal, and larger then most westerner's think.

Israel curently has approx. 100 Jericho 1 & 2 medium range ballistic missiles. They have an approx range of 1,500 KM's and their warheads are thought advanced weapons in the 150 KT range.

Like Israel, and in collusion with them, the RSA has the capabilty of delivering chem/bio weapons of mass destruction.

Reason #2 of the RSA's incursion into Angola was that they correctl percieved that the only way their system of Apartheid, indee their way of life, would continue is if they closely allied themselves with the U.S. against communism. The RSA is in such a strategicaly important peice of the world, their mineral riches are so important to the free world, and their military was so powerful that our Govt. wasnt to picky at the time who we allied ourselves with.

The Govt. of the RSA pulled every trick out of their bag to be percieved by the rest of the world as close friend of the U.S. One U.S. administration after another did everything possible to give the percetion to the rest of the world that we were only "friends at need".

Dureing this time, the 60,s, 70,s, and 80,s The RSA had an open door policy as to who they would sell arms to. We used them ; They used us. There was simply no way anybody with brains could have thought an american President could support a Govt. like the one in Pretoria and reamin in Office.

Then the Cold War ended, Human right's became the biggest issue on the worlwide table, and the People of the RSA had the courage to turn their county inside out and land back on their feet again.

This whole discussion, and the whole issue, is a racial one aint it. In Zim its the white people that have the money and the land, they worked hard for it, and they dont want to give it up. The subliminal mssg they lay on us, and one they want us to act on is, "fellow white people are under attack and you should help us".

Also, Zim and the RSA, are the playgrounds for all those rich, white, sportsmen, And , If you want to keep them wall's filled you should consider sending in the troop's.

They arent crying for a boycott of the hunting industry cause that would cost them money. These people are only concerned with their interest's, american kids dieing fighting their race war would be regretable , but , that comes with being the sole superpower in the world. If the Yank kids dont want to bleed fighting a war they cant even spell then they ought to never have joined the Military.

Sure the Africanner's want to see that incredable war machine on CNNprotecting their check balances and keeping "Them" out of their bathroom's. So would the Tibetans, the Hutu's, the Tutu's, The mascedonian's, the Yugo's, the Arabs, the Jew's, EVERY SHiT COUNTRY THAT PERCIEVES THAT AMERICA OWE'S THEM, that American success is owed to them, that American guilt and debt can be woven into their history book's , that BTW, are re-written every time their interest's are threatened and their economy is slowed.

How dare the Yanks think their kids should die only when American issues are on the table. I guess their arent enough lonley foreing graveyards with Red, white, and Blue painted on them. If 18yo Yanks bled here then they should be allowed to die there , or , Africa's is playing catch-up so lets build a few hundred Yank cemetary's there.

I mean why not ? I dont have a kid in the military, I survived my service reletively intact , and most of all, the Buff in leapard in Zim are terrific and reletively affordable. If not the troop's then lets send money, why not, were Yanks , and, For the rest of the world to call us "Lords of the Earth" when they need us a price must be paid.

I feel bad for those Farmer anyway, BTW whats it all about ? why should we get involved ? How did we screw them ?

It all gets confuseing you know, Ive heard it so many times in so many places......good shooting..........10

10 Point,

You have done your homework and make some damn valid points in that summation ... at the end of the day we all have to live with our conciences and make our own decisions in life as we see fit ... same with governments, they rise and fall on their decisions, good & bad ...

BUT we must not lose sight of the fact that the world is becoming so interrelated and interdependant with globalisation, money, politics, and corrution, that it is becoming more difficult to just sit back and be a quite observer ...

... eventually if we all sit back and dont form friendships or good will pacts the enemy will sooner or later be on our door step and then when we do need help and we dont have friends then it is tooo late ... the USA not immune from that scenario either no matter how powerful it might be, it has to eventually take a stand or take sides in these issues, you cant just morally sit back and say without consequences, stuff em all, let them rot in hell !!

Peter

10point....I'm with you about 95%. I'm also a member of the "I was there and did that group" of those who served in the 60's. I joined the USAF in '62 and finally had to get out in '75 after fighting a medical disability for 4 years after 2 years at Willford Hall Hospital. My sons didn't get called but I would hate to see anyone's child get sent to what might be the biggest "tar-baby" in the world....Africa. Somalia was and continues to be a mess and after reading the book "Blackhawk Down" I was sick and disgusted...what a f**k-up that was.

Who are the "good guys" in Africa? I can't believe that "whites" will ever again be in power and who amongst the blacks aren't so "tribal" in their attitudes to be trustworthy? There are no benevolent dictators and for a leader to be elected will will need to appeal to the masses.

Africa may well be the "poison pill" that is the last legacy of the "evil empire" Russia.

Peter most americans dont like the "New World Order" because in it we are footing to much of the bill and we are expected to do to much of the fighting.

There are 100's of little nasty bush war's and tribal conflicts going on in the world, whats the criteria for America to get involved ? I ask my fellow Yanks this because only they have the right to say where their children should fight and die , and , where their Govt. should piss away their money.

We didnt belong in Serbia ; We had a degenerate President who was getting heat for his BS at home so he started a "splendid Little war" with the Serb's. It was argued that the situation there was destabalizing NATO ,but, Yugolsavia was not a NATO member and we had no legal framework for bombing them.

Our Euro allies had been busy slashing their defense expendature's while paying their Yank,lobbyist whore's in DC to lobby congress for American involvement. It set a bad precident.

At least the thing was winnable. against a country with a modern infrustructure our Air Force can do a lot, as a former member I can attest to that. We can bring any modern country to its knee's from 30,000', with smart bombs.

But Africa's different, with the exception of the RSA. You cant pralyze those kind of countries with bombing because they never made it to the evolutionary step of wipeing with their right hands in the 1st place. Then again there is the problem with terrain and canopy jungle ,No , an american military operation is not an option for anywhere in Africa , even if we had the legal justification, which we dont.

Peter nobody wants to "make friends" with america in Africa. We were never welcome there and were always veiwed as Interloper's and any attempt by the RSA to ally themselves with us was in reality a strategic move to protect their interest's and to ensure white minority power.

Africa simply wants to "use" America, pure and simple. Its really a shame how such a proud people have gotten to such a state. Its Europe, especially England, that has the colonial history, and the alliances, that would provide the legal framework for a military incursion. The U.S. has no such tie to colonial Africa's past , and it was the colonialization that is the basis for Zim's current problems, not cold war superpower manuevering.

The only interest's American kids should die for are American interest's. The Africanner's certainly only fought for , and cared about, their's. For them to expect Yank involvement is hypocritical and not realistic. The same countries that burned Yank flags for years are now slashing their defense budget's while trying to flim-flam America into "being the worlds policeman".

I just pray that George keeps us out of all this crap........10

10point:

I strongly agree with your attitude that we need to look out for our own interests and not apologize for not bailing out every whiner that asks for it.

However, I'm not so sure I see the situation in RSA as a result of whites oppressing blacks. If that were the case, why were blacks always trying to get INTO the country? And why were the Zulus WITH the white government? Seems to me that property rights, which probably require a government of civilzed people, are a benefit to almost everybody. And that will not happen under the ANC in RSA any more than it will under the DNC in USA.

FYI, a little fuel on the flames.

The Washington Times
www.washtimes.com

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----------

Cleansing whites out of Africa
Paul Craig Roberts
Published 8/28/2001

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Ethnic cleansing has begun in Zimbabwe. When will NATO bombs
begin falling on Harare? Will Robert Mugabe be hauled before a war
crimes tribunal in The Hague?
The ethnics being cleansed from Zimbabwe are whites. They have
been in the country for generations and turned unoccupied land into
productive farms that feed the country and earn Zimbabwe hard
currency through exports.
"There is an element of full-scale ethnic cleansing happening in
Zimbabwe," said South African parliamentarian Tony Leon. "People are
being targeted because they are white."
The big white-owned farms employ 2 million blacks, and that is
the white farmers' offense. Employed blacks desirous of a better
future are the backbone of the black political opposition to Mr.
Mugabe's National Union Patriotic Front, which is holding on to power
through brute force and Western support.
Mr. Mugabe lost the last election, but in Al Gore fashion
declared himself the winner and began terrorizing the opposition.
Mr. Mugabe has organized an extralegal paramilitary force of the
unemployed and unemployable on the pattern of Nazi Brown Shirts. He
has unleashed his thugs on the white population and their black
employees with the intent of destroying the economic base of his
black political opposition.
The Zimbabwean Supreme Court has repeatedly ordered the halt of
the illegal expropriations of farm lands, but Mr. Mugabe has ordered
the police not to interfere with his murderous Brown Shirts, who
descend on farms, rape the women, murder the men, loot the homes, and
destroy farm equipment and buildings.
Mr. Mugabe says his Brown Shirts are merely dispossessed,
landless "settlers" who are peacefully reclaiming lands whites stole
from their forebears.
Initially, the police offered some protection to the besieged
whites. Under pressure from Mr. Mugabe, the police adopted a hands
off approach. Now they arrest whites who attempt to defend themselves
and their families, or who come to the aid of others.
In recent days, scores of whites have been arrested and
imprisoned on the improbable charge of "assaulting" the raging mobs
of Brown Shirts. Zimbabwean police spokesman Bvudizjena said of 23
whites driven from their farms by 1,200 Brown Shirts: "It appears it
was a premeditated attack by the farmers on the settlers."
Officials of the Commercial Farmers' Union said the violence "is
totally out of hand. We are evacuating women and children and the
elderly and the sick."
In a performance that would make Hitler and Stalin envious,
Zimbabwean Home Affairs Minister John Knomo said: "It is true the
farmers have been attacking people. It is the farmers who are
unleashing this violence. Measures are being taken to nip it in the
bud."
Mr. Mugabe's lust for total power has pushed Zimbabwe into total
lawlessness. Whites are fleeing the country. The disruption of
agricultural production has given Mr. Mugabe the starvation weapon to
wield against his black opposition.
Black South African government officials are quickly granting
asylum to Zimbabwe's fleeing whites, hoping to calm the fears of
their own white population that it is only a matter of time before
the black-on-white violence initiated by Mr. Mugabe spreads to South
Africa. The black South African government knows that if it loses its
white population, South Africa, too, will sink into the barbarism of
postcolonial Africa.
The silence of Western governments is a testament to the
privileged position of "preferred minorities." In the politically
correct mind-set of Western media and politicians, no black man, no
matter how murderous, can be guilty of violating the civil rights of
white people. Mr. Mugabe knows that the victim status of blacks will
paralyze the Western powers and prevent any effective action against
him.
It is only a matter of time before whites are cleansed from
Africa.

Paul Craig Roberts is a columnist for The Washington Times and is
nationally syndicated.

Copyright � 2001 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved.

Another bit of news about The Amazing Mugabe Man!

http://www.global.co.za/news/news_center_010816.384213.html

------------------
Regards
Dave

Recono you kind of lost me. Maybe you can point out where I made that statement. But in answer to what you think I said its certainly a matter of historical record that the Apartheid Govt. of the RSA often successfully neautralized the Black opposition by playing off tribal conflicts, making deal's, in return for cooperation, with elements of the opposition.

Its just good ole Polititicking, often practiced everywhere. The RSA has always had pretty good employment prospects compared to the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa. No doubt thats why so many black try to get into the country.

I never once took a side in all these issue's. The point I was making is that no American should take a side ; It aint our business. I have no right to preach to anyone over there and I dont. Maybe you remember how much the White minority Govt.'s in South Africa Hated American view's and what they called "Interloper's in their Internal Affairs". Now that things have changed, and they percieve Yank involvement as helping their interest's, they are all for "American Interlopeing".

They didnt want Yank involvement back when they were shooting the blighter's for violating cerfew ; Now they want the F-18's to save their farm's.

When will those stupid American's realize they should shut up and do what they are told.........10

Guests,

Here an assumption to get your "blood pressure" up

I bet if the USA was run by ( TEXAS ) the troops would be on their way now to help a friend in need ! Texans are much like the old Rhodesians, they are fair BUT they would not put up with all this "wooley" PC crap going on in the world today

just a thought !!

Peter

Peter,

Now you know why I went ot live in Texas instead of some other State

Mind you, I think there are more than a few individuals in other States who would not hesitate in packing thier gear and going to Zimbabwe to get rid of this tyrant.

------------------
saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,

You and me both are thinking clearly, thank goodness for TEXAS

Seriously though ..

The whole subject is very complex and we have to be careful ( me included ) that we dont get too blinded by the racial overtones and implications and look at the problem subjectively .... it is just too easy in this world to put a pure "racial tag" on everything, as often the problem might be religious and have no color involved as in places like Ireland or the baltic states

Having said all that, in defence of us terrible people called "honkies" ( ha ha ) the one thing that stands out to me at least, is that if we "honkies" are as bad as a lot of people in the world make us out to be, then why the hell are most of the non-white refugees that are roaming the world and seeking political asylum tending to mainly go to countries whose governments are run by a predominantly western white skinned people IE: USA, UK, AUSTRALIA, NZ etc

Maybe the powerful countries of the world should look at the reason why these people are leaving their countries for a better life ... it does not take a rocket scientist te see that these "rouge" governments need someone to step in and remove them from power and help some moderates to take over, as unless the problem is addressed soon the worldwide refugee problem will become a MAJOR world problem ... so for those whom sit in their cosy "rockin chairs" and say "stuff" all these other countries it is not their problem, maybe need to think again before the problem arrives on their doorstep in the form of boatloads of fleeing people .. surely the USA can see the problem right on their doorstep with the cuban boat people as an example !

So get involved, and work towards removing these despots from power whom are destroying their own countries and persecuting their people to hang onto power using all means

Regards, Peter

You cant FORCE people to be civilized. Anywhere in Africa America went we would be viewed as the enemy. Maybe you feller's forget the lesson's learned in Somalia, which has many things in common with Zimbabwe.

Why hasnt the RSA done anything, Zim is a destablizing factor in their sphere of influence. Peter its just incredable to me that anyone could even think America should send her son's to fight halfway across the world in order to protect a Colonial Agrarian policy that even isnt part of our history.

Were you and all the other white boy's planning on sitting back and sipping Castles while the 18yo Yank kids just waltzed in, yanked Mugabe off his thrown, civilized the place in a few week's, and made it home for the NFL opener ?

You are looking at world affairs strictly thru the telescope of your own self interest, that has always been an Africanner trait. White South Africa has never exactly been to concerned with human right's abuses antwhere in the world.

In a strategic sense such a military operation would be a disaster. Only America has the might to even attempt it but it would be a disaster for us as well.For one thing we could expect no Help from any of the countries down there, especially the RSA.

With no ports or fixed runways logistics would be impossable. We could move in no heavy equipment , no mass's of troops,even our Navy combat, or any, aircraft would have to fly over hostile territory to get there.

I dont see Mozambique or the RSA allowing U.S. combat aircraft to fly over their border's in order to re-establish, by force, a white Zimbabwe Govt. We would have to neautrlize their air defense networks and Im sure we'd take casualties. HaHa, thats kinda funny, white RSA pilots shooting down Yank planes that are trying to remove Mugabe.

The last time we got carried away with the power of our War machine in a tribal, 3rd world country we got our ass's kicked. As in Somalia. The U.S. Military is designed and outfitted to fight certain kinds of war's and this wouldnt be one of them.

We fight big ,strategic, sweeping Land , sea, and air battles to conquer territory and force Political settlements. This kind of 3rd world geurilla war, surrounded by hostile country's and armed tribes, would end in disaster, even for the U.S. Military.

The Serbian bombing campaign was , on the other hand, emminently winnable. The Targets were out in the open, we didnt have to fly over hostile countries "thus commiting acts of war against them", we had the assets already there and had plenty of rail, air, and sea logistical supply lines available, Serbia was in Europes backyard , and , it could be argued, was destabalizing NATO.

Zimbabwe is totally isolated, Politicaly and strategicaly. There's literally nothing we could do in a military sense, nothing! We would lose, our kids would get killed for nothing.

Then there is the fact , Peter, That maybe much of the free worlds population think its unfair that such a small "White" minority owns such a large majority of the land,minerals, and money.

No, I like and respect you Peter. If you say you are concerned with all these "rouge Govt.'s" and "inequity" in the rest of the world, I know you are a decent man. But I dont think the rest of your countrymen much give's a damn about the rest of Africa and the rest of the world, past say, the stretch of their check balances. The history of Rhodesia is a history of "circleing the Wagon's" and avoiding any kind of entanglement in foreign affairs. Rhodesia and , to an extant, the RSA sold their soul's to the Mining Baron's in the 1960's and to hear them talk about "International Responsability" now is, almost laughable.

You say America should "get involved" and we sit to much on our "cozy rockin chairs". Well my friend you should take a "world tour" someday of all the Lonely Yank cemetary's in all those lonely parts of the world that nobody else cared about , or , no-one else had the balls to go to and make a stand. They are all over Europe and Asia ; They would be in Africa too but we are afraid the Local savages would dig them up and drag the bodies around for the CNN camera's.

Nobody has even come close to paying the price we have, both in money and blood, for the freedom and Prosperity of other's , and , The whole time we have mostly been badmouthed by the world, even by the countries weve helped. Weve already paid a price Peter, and its been a heavier one then any other country has EVER paid in History. We were supposed to be paid a peace dividend after America won the cold war.

Instead weve had to deal with a world that is becoming more and more dependent on us, a more dangerous world that feel's it's "owed" just because we have prospered and worked past, or are trying to, our socio,economic,Political problems.

The Africanner's simply want to USE us for their own interest's. They always have and always will. They have no interest's in joining hands with America to tackle the worlds problems and injustices ; They want their farms , money , and hunting concession's to stay in their power and they have no problem with spilling the blood of America's son's to do it.

I like the Africanner's too. I think they are the best Host's ive ever met, they are simply a really nice bunch of folk's.

But I dont want my kid to get killed fighting for their way of life, Im sure my fellow Yanks here feel the same way, at least I hope you do. And hopefully the next time a PH tells you how we are all guilty for the collapse of Minority rulership in Sub-Saharan Africa you wont feel as compelled to hang your head in shame.

And good shooting to all........10