You here someone talking about my gun won't shoot these bullets...and then he explains it only shoots a 3inch group at 100yds...Well if my train of thought is at 50 it shoots 1.5inch and closer tighter...So what is really wrong...Or are we just becoming obsessed with shooting a one hole target...My 458Lott at 75 yards off sticks shot a one hole three shot group...I never expected it to shoot that tight..That was the new Ruger one of the first production run rifles..The only major thing done to it was to bed it....

Mike

Accuracy and hunting is certainly not a requirement. Unless you like to hit a critter where you're aiming, that is...

But more seriously, I think I understand what your point is, and while I'm a bit short on experience, I'd agree that going mad and spending thousands over a half inch difference at a hundred yards sounds to me to be a bit obsessive. I do want any firearm I own and hunt with to be able to shoot where it's supposed to, but will I lose sleep because one can't shoot the tits off a firefly at 200 yards? Nope.

I'll bet if you ask most professionals they will prefer a well placed second shot delivered quickly as opposed to 1/2 MOA anytime.

As long as it and I can shoot "minute of animal" all is well.

quote:

Originally posted by Kamo Gari:

I lose sleep because one can't shoot the tits off a firefly at 200 yards? Nope.

Well said,but I think thats a nice sport onto itself ,politically incorrect,admittedly,nevertheless a challenge and therefore a rewarding activity

I believe it was Boddington who coined the phrase "minute of volleyball" because on most game animals the size of the vital zone is about the size of a volleyball. Of course, that volleyball has to take into account the weaves and jitters of the shooter as well as the inherent accuracy of the rifle so things like shooting sticks, convenient trees, big rocks, a steady tracker's shoulder, etc. are also part of the equation. Naturally, we are here on the African Big Game forum where klipspringers are considered small game. If we were discussing shooting ground squirrels in the next time zone (and having to account for PDT) this thread would have an entirely different bent.

Retreever,
I am an accuracy addict but I also realise that benchrest accuracy is not a requirement for big game hunting. But I do like to find out a particular rifles best accuracy and use that load if possible.

For most hunting loads with Partitions I am very happy with 1 1/2" groups. Smaller is even better but not necessary.

Best to spend the time turning yourself into a better shooter than spending the time turning your gun into a better shooter.

Regards,

Terry

I say to each his own. However for my hunting tastes, I think you make a good point. If you can put your bullet in the vital zone, that is all that really matters.

On the other hand, if you're shooting competition, obviously there is a payoff for being accuracy obsessed.

Terry, well said " My shooting creed has been aim small miss small..."

Accuracy is more psychological than anything.

It's nice to know that the rifle is shooting where you are pointing it for one's own confidence rather than of any real value at typical short range African hunting.

I think that using a rifle of proven accuracy gives one a sense of confidence that one would not have knowing that the rifle is inaccurate. For example, knowing that my Tikka 300WM rifle can consistently shoot 2" groups at 200 yards, and is sighted in at 200 yards gives me much more confidence than taking the same shot with my Ruger Mini 14! Not wanting to be absurd, but I think that the mental aspect of shooting is as important a factor as anything else. Of course one could always be over confident!
OOPS! I see that Will beat me by 2 minutes!
Peter.

I would not hunt plains game with a 3 MOA rifle.

Only on the internet will everyones gun shoot a 1" group...Truth be know it shot a 1" group once, so now its a 1" gun....A 1" gun will shoot a 1", 5 shot group, 95% or the time and damn few guns will do that....

A 1" 3 shot gun is more common and I'd say they come along every 100 or so guns from the factory...

A 2 inch 3 shot rifle is all one needs for hunting...

I do have some real 1" guns and one or two even better than that, but I sure went through a lot of rifles to get them...

Knowing where it will plant that first one from a cold barrel is the most important thing to me.

To me a big game rifle for deer or larger is perfectly fine with 2" groups at 100yds. Less is fine but I don't sweat it if it's not sub MOA. For varmint rifles it's another matter, but if you can put a good bullet in a pie plate reliably at various ranges you're in business for deer, elk, etc.

quote:

Accuracy is more psychological than anything.

It's nice to know that the rifle is shooting where you are pointing it for one's own confidence rather than of any real value at typical short range African hunting.

-------------------------------
Bill Stewart

If I may paraphrase you, Bill,

"If you're guessin', you're gonna be missin'."

I limit myself to about 300 yards when hunting. What I like to do is blow up some red-ballons at that range, and post them on a yard stick--much like Boddington's VB. You know right away if you're "on."

friar

I agree that it's mostly psychological. If you're shooting at reasonable distances, a (3 shot) 1-2 MOA rifle is fine. Beyond that it's all confidence and mental. Still important mind you.

7mm. guy

Exactly. I've said this many times: I would rather use a bullet, I KNOW will perform form any shot presentation, that shoots 1.5moa than a bullet I worry about finishing the job, that shoots .5moa. Most of us shoot inside the 350yds mark, maybe stretch to 400 w/ the right load, a 1.5moa rifle gets you to 300 & 1moa gets you to 400 on deer size game. I can live w/ that.

Present distinguished company obviously excluded, but the FWS has records going back over a generation that indicates 95% of all game is killed at under 150 yards. Personally, I don't think I've ever fired at game that was more than 125!

The majority of the animals i have killed were under 75 yards.

I can think of only one or two shots I have taken in my life over 150, getting close is much more satisfying to me than lofting a 300 yard shot..

I was on a plainsgame hunt in Namibia a couple of years ago when I had trouble with my rifle's zero, so I was doubting it. My PH stopped the bakkie and pointed to a springbok at a lasered 156 yards out standing still broadside. He gave me his gun and said, "Shoot it in the head." I set my gun on my shooting sticks, took a deep breath and complied. When the springbok fell at the shot, he commented, "Now you have confidence in this rifle."

That gun was printing sub-MOA.

Pete E makes a very good point on another thread about European's preference for head shots to take game without meat damage, as much of it is for sale to butchers after the hunt. I would rather have that accuracy just knowing if I'll ever need it.

Ya know what? I'm a terrible shot, there I've said it. Anything over 200 yards and I wouldn't feel comfortable taking the shot. With my bow I notice I'm not much worse at 30 yards than 20, thats interesting. But you know what else? I'm a sneaky little bugger I can ger real close to animals and I like the thrill and the feeling of my heart junping out of my throat. That doesn't happen at long ranges as much.

Just a little closer....a few more feet.....I can do it....look his head is down....slowly slowly....don't look him in the eye......watch out for does they always bust me........closer.....closer....it's tempting to crawl on my belly but too noisy.......watch the thread blowing in the wind, you were smart to put it there it always reminds you to play the wind.......raise your gun......is the safety off........wait...he's kinds small....I think I'll let this one go and grow up. BOOO!!!!! hahahaha scared the hell out of him.

Thats hunting

the chef

I mostly do paper hunting and I am sure most of the members on this forum shoot at the range more often then they shoot at the game. I will admit that I am an accuracy nut just because a 1/2" group at the range gives a lot more satisfaction than a 2" group and knowing that your gun is cabable of consistantly putting the bullet where you aim gives a lot more confidence while shooting at a live animal.

Can I hunt with a 3" gun? absolutely!
Would I like to hunt with a 3" gun? probably not.

If all of us stuck to some arbitrary minimum accuracy requirements then we won't be the colorful bunch that we are. All of us will be hunting with a 7x57 with leupold 4x on it.

Gentlemen,

I think the more important point is how well one can shoot under field conditions.

I have seen individuals who are excellent shots off the bench, who cannot seem to hit any animal they shoot at while hunting.

From my own personal experience, on many occasions, on close shots, I find I don't really aim at all, but snap shoot like using a shotgun - my long time friend, and long suffering PH, Roy Vincent will attest to that!

Under certain conditions, I would not even consider taking a shot if I know my rifle is not capable of very good accuracy.

Like taking a shot at the brain of a croc at over 200 yards, or any animal at that range.

But, having an accurate rifle, when one can take any shot he is comfortable with, can add a lot to the pleasures of the hunt.

Years ago, I used to take two rifles on my hunts. A medium caliber for plains game and a larger caliber for buffalo and so on.

On this particular occassion, I had a Lazzeroni 7.21 Firehawk, and my usual 375/404.

First day of the hunt we wanted to shoot some impala for leopard bait.

The afternoon before, we checked the rifles on the range, and both rifles shot just as well as they did before leaving home.

Not long after leaving camp, we saw a number of impala, and I tried to shoot one of the with the Lazzeroni.

They were about 200 yards away, and should have been an easy shot, but I missed him twice. They disappeared into the bush, and we left them to look for another lot.

Soon after we saw some feeding, and we managed to get to about 60-70 yards from them, and I managed to kill one. When we got to him, I could see that my shot did not hit him where I was aiming at all, and we thought the bullet might have been deflected by a twig we could not see.

As we walked back to the truck, I carry the rifle over my shoulders, I heard some rattles coming from it, and assumed it was the removable magazine. So we tried to fix that, and then found that the action screws were loose!!

We did not have the right size Alen key to tighten the screws, so I decided to use the 375/404 on impala for the rest of the day, and we would fix the Lazzeroni when we get back to camp in the evening.

We went to an area by the river, where impalas like to feed.

And after firing 4 shots and killing 4 impalas, at ranges of about 30 yards, 180, 200 and 430 yards - this last one we measured with a laser range finder after the shot. I decide to just use the 375/404 for everything.

If I did not have an accurate rifle, I would not have considered some of those shots.


The above is with Barnes 300 grain X bullets.



This rifle just shoots well. Last year, some my friends who were using it in Tanzania decided they did not like the muzzle brake on it, so they stuck the barrel in the fire, and finally managed to remove it! Wonderful friends I have ha!

Anyway, when we got home, I asked Walter to make something that will protect the screw end of the barrel.

And, of course as many of those who know Walter will realize, he has to make it a major engineering project.

He made a steel sleeve that fit over the muzzle brake to hide the holes!! So we now have a muzzle brake wich does nothing but look even uglier than before.

We had an argument about it, and he insisted I shoot the rifle to see that its accuracy was not affected!

I took 3 rounds loaded with our new Walterhog bullets, and used the same load you see above. Sure enough, all three shots were touching, so Walter won the argument, and that ugly non-operational muzzle brake stays on.

If the rifle is not accurate, it has no business going hunting

This is the age of theoretical accuracy. It seems like many guys are always on a quest for that one-hole rifle, and all other considerations get lost in the shuffle.

I have found that a rifle that produces 1.5" groups at 100 yds. is plenty accurate enough for any hunting, and if I own a rifle that will group under an inch with premium hunting bullets, I have a real keeper.

More important than group size, I want a rifle that maintains a consistent point-of-impact, feeds perfectly, and doesn't have to employ weird chamber dimensions (tight necks, etc.), target-type bullets, or other fuss & fume type features in order to shoot well.

All of my core battery of hunting rifles shoot under an inch with premium bullet loads, and they'll all shoot under an inch with premium factory loads, such as Federal's, and they stay sighted-in and feed flawlessly. I can't ask any more out of a set of rifles than that.....

AD

Allen Day, you need to talk to ol' Ray. He says it doesn't happen! I have groups shot with my GS Custom FN's in 416 and 375 that are close to Saeed's. My groups with Nosler Partitions are not as good, but still sub 2" at 200 yards. Good enough for me, and at that point I stop load development. These bullets are too damn expensive.
peter.

I got lucky, my rifles shoot better than I can.

Biesen .375 H&H (factory Remington Safari Grade, 300 gr. Swift A-Frame)


Biesen .416 Rem Mag (factory Remington Safari Grade, 400 gr. Swift A-Frame)


Regards,

Terry

Jarrett PH rifle, featuring push feed action, guaranteed to shoot 1/2 moa at 100 yards, and costing around $7500.

Personally I would prefer to focus less on bench rest accuracy, and more on reliability in the field, as well as practicing my shooting from field positions.

i have to agree with saeed, while the kill area on the game animal may be large, to often it is hidden by brush, and you have to be able (both yu and the rifle) to thread the needle. as the old saying goes "only accurate rifles are interesting"

quote:

Personally I would prefer to focus less on bench rest accuracy, and more on reliability in the field, as well as practicing my shooting from field positions.

Can't get any better than a 9" circle at 300 yards with a 3 moa rifle no matter how much you practice.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Only on the internet will everyones gun shoot a 1" group...Truth be know it shot a 1" group once, so now its a 1" gun....A 1" gun will shoot a 1", 5 shot group, 95% or the time and damn few guns will do that....

A 1" 3 shot gun is more common and I'd say they come along every 100 or so guns from the factory...

A 2 inch 3 shot rifle is all one needs for hunting...

I do have some real 1" guns and one or two even better than that, but I sure went through a lot of rifles to get them...

Ray,
well said, I've been shooting for some years and have never gotten a 1" five shot group. Can consistently do 3 shot 1 " or sub with certain rifles but never more than that. I often wonder how truthful many of the internet claims are

I heard of a hunter who bought one these Jarret rifles, and took one box of ammo with him to Africa - as he thought 20 rounds is plenty enough for a super accurate rifle to shoot 6 or 7 animals with.

He wounded a warthog the first day, and fired a total of 12 rounds to kill it!!

It makes no difference how accurate teh rifle is if you cannot shoot it well

Saeed! CLASSIC!!!

I ponder this all of the time when reading threads about this or that "target" type bullet giving "sub moa" accuracy & "should I use it on my deer/bear/pig hunt" & they shoot less than 100yds from a blind or tree stand.
If my rifles shoot 1.5moa w/ a NP or sim. hunting bullet, I'm good to go for the max. distances I hunt.

What Sayeed says is right on the button. Hunters should spend more time shooting offhand, kneeling, off shooting sticks etc. I've never found a shooting bench in the woods when I find my animal.

the chef

Gee, now that you mention it, neither have I. Wonder why that is . . .

I had been told, even by my PH to just plan on 50 to 60 yd shots in Zimbabwe. So when my .300 Win Mag was scattering shots over 4 inches at 100 yds, I debated if that would not be OK as the shots would be close. But having some competition experience I was not comfortable with that so we rebarreled the rifle and tuned it and got it to a consistent 3 shot 1 inch grouping at 100 yds. As you might guess where this is leading my first shot on safari at the only sable I saw was approximately 275 yds. in Chewore South after 4 hard days of hunting them. My PH said " I didn't think you would take that shot but I'm glad you did becaquse the sable have been hard to find". The sable ran 30 yds and fell over.You just never know what shot you may have to take so it sure pays to have a rifle that is capable of makeing that long shot as well as the confidence it provides.

Sorry guys but most any gun will do if you do your part. Yes a sub moa gun can do more than a 3 moa gun. However, most shooting is such that a 1 or 2 inch group is plenty for hunting. With the exception of a real piece of junk it is more about the guy behind the rifle than anything else. Obviously if you have loose action screws, scope mounts etc there is a problem that has to be fixed. I truthfully have never picked up a rifle not good enough to hunt with. That includes some real clunkers. Do I prefer a gun that is more accurate over one that is not? Sure, but it is not the holy grail of hunting. Practice, practice, and more practice. That is the real answer.

This is almost a "Chicken or Egg" argument!

The answer is easy to me though...if you can't shoot in field situations, it does not matter how accurate your rifle is.

After you have practiced and have become a proficient field shot, the accuracy of your rifle will then be the limiting factor and will determine how far you can reasonably shoot at game.

So, assuming you are a good shot, you only need a gun to be as accurate as the longest shots you will take. In other words, a 1" gun is necessary only if you intend to take long shots.

Personally, however, I like having a tack driver with me in the field. It gives me confidence that if I do my part, the bullet will fly where I want it to. And confidence is a big part of shooting accurately.

Cheers,
Canuck