If you have not had a chance to read Ivan Carter's article in the latest issue of Sports Afield I encourage you to do so. He articulates at length the rationale for and benefits of the hunting strategy of getting clients close to elephant for shots versus shooting from a considerable distance. Very well articulated basis for why he and others that guide lots of hunters on elephant hunts prefer getting in close.

Have not seen the article, but I bet the main reasons are clients who cannot shoot well due to being nervous, and giving the PH a chance to kill the elephant if the shot wasn't good enough

Saeed:
From a PH's perspective I would agree. However, I would like to read this article and get Ivan's perspective. I can shoot well and loved getting as close as practicable. 12 and 15 yards for me and I found myself very comfortable and focused. Strangely, I did not feel that comfortable in the presence of lions and, unfortunately, finding myself too close due to unforeseen circumstances.

Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Have not seen the article, but I bet the main reasons are clients who cannot shoot well due to being nervous, and giving the PH a chance to kill the elephant if the shot wasn't good enough

Yet more absurdity! Good grief!

The PH's know that most of us hunters that go to Africa once a year or less will not be at our best especially on DG.
It's only given, because it's not something we do every day.
Under the circumstances including paying lots of money for wounded ones as well, it's in there best interest to get us as close as possible and back us up to make sure
All is well in the end,
I don't see anything wrong with it

For those that have, if it is close I guess it is likely to be a brain shot attempt or is it?. What is the closest for a brain shot considering the angle i.e. when does the PH stop and allow the shot?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
... I bet the main reasons are clients who cannot shoot well due to being nervous,
and giving the PH a chance to kill the elephant if the shot wasn't good enough

Whats a-bout when a close-up recreational hunter shits a house brick-panics- carelessly runs backwards- stumbles,
and puts a bullet through the PH instead of the DG, then you have situation where the wild beast can go the incapacitated PH
and the useless haphazard client.
However, PHs know they are payed to tolerate-accommodate largely unreliable novice thrill seeking stunt hunters.

As Todd has illustrated a good pair of running shoes is recommended however this does this does not apply to Lion.

Note that very few like to get close to Lion as they are very fast, of a violent disposition and considered extremely dangerous.

Close is for open sights and double rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
For those that have, if it is close I guess it is likely to be a brain shot attempt or is it?. What is the closest for a brain shot considering the angle i.e. when does the PH stop and allow the shot?

Getting the angle right will identify the point of impact and can be executed from any distance within reason; obviously, the closer the more accurate.

However, closing the distance to within a few yards may not be a good idea for a novice as the angle gets rather acute and not as easy as one might think.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
For those that have, if it is close I guess it is likely to be a brain shot attempt or is it?. What is the closest for a brain shot considering the angle i.e. when does the PH stop and allow the shot?

Getting the angle right will identify the point of impact and can be executed from any distance within reason; obviously, the closer the more accurate.

However, closing the distance to within a few yards may not be a good idea for a novice as the angle gets rather acute and not as easy as one might think.

Besides an elephant falling on your head may ruin any trophy photograph opportunity.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
For those that have, if it is close I guess it is likely to be a brain shot attempt or is it?. What is the closest for a brain shot considering the angle i.e. when does the PH stop and allow the shot?

Getting the angle right will identify the point of impact and can be executed from any distance within reason; obviously, the closer the more accurate.

However, closing the distance to within a few yards may not be a good idea for a novice as the angle gets rather acute and not as easy as one might think.

Besides an elephant falling on your head may ruin any trophy photograph opportunity.

I heard you HAVE to be close enough to be able to count the ticks around his anus?

quote:

I heard you HAVE to be close enough to be able to count the ticks around his anus?

Only if your intention is to splash graffiti on its arse.

I cannot decide whether it is comical or sad . . . folks that are prepared to express an opinion on an article that they clearly have not read. I am starting to understand better how our President got elected . . . twice.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I cannot decide whether it is comical or sad . . . folks that are prepared to express an opinion on an article that they clearly have not read. I am starting to understand better how our President got elected . . . twice.

+1...Go Hillary...for the three-peat

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
As Todd has illustrated a good pair of running shoes is recommended however this does this does not apply to Lion.

Note that very few like to get close to Lion as they are very fast, of a violent disposition and considered extremely dangerous.

I heard as long as you arent the slowest, you will be OK.

quote:

Close is for open sights and double rifles lever actions

fixed it for ya.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

Besides an elephant falling on your head may ruin any trophy photograph opportunity.

I heard you HAVE to be close enough to be able to count the ticks around his anus?[/QUOTE]

Being at the wrong end counting ticks makes brain shots down right tedious?

The next MS, some one is going to get hurt.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Have not seen the article, but I bet the main reasons are clients who cannot shoot well due to being nervous, and giving the PH a chance to kill the elephant if the shot wasn't good enough

A certain well known PH recently told me he had a client totally miss an elephant at 5 yards. The client was terrified of the elephant and also of his 500 NE.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I cannot decide whether it is comical or sad . . . folks that are prepared to express an opinion on an article that they clearly have not read. I am starting to understand better how our President got elected . . . twice.

.............................

I got my issue yesterday, and didn't have a chance to read the article till very early this morning.

I'm constantly amazed at Ivan's ability to express things so clearly in print or on his films.

Having read this very well written article, every thing he had to say made perfect sense to me. I too have found the getting in close to any animal is the best choice for a very clean kill. Not only because it is a very good way to make a very precise shot placement, but because I'm an adrenaline junky. Getting in close to dangerous animals is the "FIX" that keeps bringing me back.

My experience is limited with elephant, but if I could afford it there are only three people on my list that I would choose for a safari for elephant, and they are,Buzz, Ivan and Johan Calitz! All those guys will get you in close but only if they think you can handle it! IOM that was the gist of Ivans article being discussed here.

Like I and others have said, It is not a smart move to try the get VERY CLOSE to lions. That is asking for a mauling, IMO! Elephant and cape buffalo are another matter, and the very well written article tells you why it is!

quote:

I too have found the getting in close to any animal is the best choice for a very clean kill

I just don't want the "clean kill" to be me!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I cannot decide whether it is comical or sad . . . folks that are prepared to express an opinion on an article that they clearly have not read. I am starting to understand better how our President got elected . . . twice.

.............................

I got my issue yesterday, and didn't have a chance to read the article till very early this morning.

I'm constantly amazed at Ivan's ability to express things so clearly in print or on his films.

Having read this very well written article, every thing he had to say made perfect sense to me. I too have found the getting in close to any animal is the best choice for a very clean kill. Not only because it is a very good way to make a very precise shot placement, but because I'm an adrenaline junky. Getting in close to dangerous animals is the "FIX" that keeps bringing me back.

My experience is limited with elephant, but if I could afford it there are only three people on my list that I would choose for a safari for elephant, and they are,Buzz, Ivan and Johan Calitz! All those guys will get you in close but only if they think you can handle it! IOM that was the gist of Ivans article being discussed here.

Like I and others have said, It is not a smart move to try the get VERY CLOSE to lions. That is asking for a mauling, IMO! Elephant and cape buffalo are another matter, and the very well written article tells you why it is!

Mac, you are doing disservice to lot of good PH's
I understand those three you mentioned are good, but they are like Hollywood stars, they have the exposure on TV and act like ones.
I hunted with guys , people may not have heard of, but they were solid pros that didn't blink under ele or buff charge.
We are creating monsters out of some of these guys on TV, but that is the times we are living in.
I feel like I wouldn't wanna hunt with them because of the fact that fame can get into their heads, which is seen between the lines on TV.
Worship is something that can get all of us in trouble...
Nothing worse in life then overconfident man.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I cannot decide whether it is comical or sad . . . folks that are prepared to express an opinion on an article that they clearly have not read. I am starting to understand better how our President got elected . . . twice.

.............................

I got my issue yesterday, and didn't have a chance to read the article till very early this morning.

I'm constantly amazed at Ivan's ability to express things so clearly in print or on his films.

Having read this very well written article, every thing he had to say made perfect sense to me. I too have found the getting in close to any animal is the best choice for a very clean kill. Not only because it is a very good way to make a very precise shot placement, but because I'm an adrenaline junky. Getting in close to dangerous animals is the "FIX" that keeps bringing me back.

My experience is limited with elephant, but if I could afford it there are only three people on my list that I would choose for a safari for elephant, and they are,Buzz, Ivan and Johan Calitz! All those guys will get you in close but only if they think you can handle it! IOM that was the gist of Ivans article being discussed here.

Like I and others have said, It is not a smart move to try the get VERY CLOSE to lions. That is asking for a mauling, IMO! Elephant and cape buffalo are another matter, and the very well written article tells you why it is!

Mac, you are doing disservice to lot of good PH's
I understand those three you mentioned are good, but they are like Hollywood stars, they have the exposure on TV and act like ones.
I hunted with guys , people may not have heard of, but they were solid pros that didn't blink under ele or buff charge.
We are creating monsters out of some of these guys on TV, but that is the times we are living in.
I feel like I wouldn't wanna hunt with them because of the fact that fame can get into their heads, which is seen between the lines on TV.
Worship is something that can get all of us in trouble...
Nothing worse in life then overconfident man.

In truth and fact, I think you are the one doing a disservice to some good PH's. Have you even met Ivan, Buzz or Johan? If you have met them, how much time have you actually spent visiting with and getting to know them? Throwing around phrases like "creating monsters", "fame can get into their heads", "overconfident man", are pretty categorical indictments of folks. I am certain you would not even begin to say those things unless you really knew the individuals to whom your comments were addressed . . . yea, right.

I read the article. I am not sure how close is too close.

I hunted ele's briefly with Mark Ellement. We got within 30 yards and I was way impressed with the elephants size and ability to figure out I was there.

I am not an elephant hunter at all. With the right PH, I would follow him in close but about 20 yards is way close enough for me. I would prefer to be at 50 yards if possible. I would take a heart/lung shot as well. Forget the brain shot unless I know exactly where to shoot.

I believe shooting close is a gentlemans sport ,shooting DG at long range -more than 50 mts-its not a sportmanship attitude ,but its my personnal opinion .

quote:

Have not seen the article, but I bet the main reasons are clients who cannot shoot well due to.....

Todd, to finish the sentence..."using double rifles" :-)

The closer you get, the bigger the brain or hart/lung are and the easier the shot for the client.

Mark Sullivan has proven that this is true by virtue of the fact that he is still alive today.

To my mind, Dangerous game shot beyond 50m are not dangerous at all.

Got the issue in the mail yesterday and just finished reading it. Excellent article and no real surprises when you think about.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I cannot decide whether it is comical or sad . . . folks that are prepared to express an opinion on an article that they clearly have not read. I am starting to understand better how our President got elected . . . twice.

Apologies but bet you by the time this thread is finished it will bear no resemblance to the original post.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
The closer you get, the bigger the brain or hart/lung are and the easier the shot for the client.

Mark Sullivan has proven that this is true by virtue of the fact that he is still alive today.

To my mind, Dangerous game shot beyond 50m are not dangerous at all.

Until you follow them up in the long grass.

Thanks but I would rather hunt a competent marksman. Being up close is indeed thrilling but no half as good as the entire safari experience.

You must be really bored at the moment Jines to have stired up this old bucket of worms.
Have you tried standing on the street corner and tripping up old ladies ? -- nah, course you have !!

quote:

originally posted by boarkiller
Mac, you are doing disservice to lot of good PH'sI understand those three you mentioned are good, but they are like Hollywood stars, they have the exposure on TV and act like ones.I hunted with guys , people may not have heard of, but they were solid pros that didn't blink under ele or buff charge.We are creating monsters out of some of these guys on TV, but that is the times we are living in.I feel like I wouldn't wanna hunt with them because of the fact that fame can get into their heads, which is seen between the lines on TV.Worship is something that can get all of us in trouble...Nothing worse in life then overconfident man.

Careful hogslayer, you are getting dangerously close to questioning the religion of glory whoredom with this post......

quote:

originally posted by MJines
In truth and fact, I think you are the one doing a disservice to some good PH's. Have you even met Ivan, Buzz or Johan? If you have met them, how much time have you actually spent visiting with and getting to know them? Throwing around phrases like "creating monsters", "fame can get into their heads", "overconfident man", are pretty categorical indictments of folks. I am certain you would not even begin to say those things unless you really knew the individuals to whom your comments were addressed . . . yea, right.

Mike

...and there is the high priest himself

Jolly, it is a good article. I know you struggle reading the big words, but perhaps Teresa would read the article to you in lieu of telling you your normal bedtime story.

Tripping old ladies is so passé. I just hang out at the grocery store and "spill" a little cooking oil on the floor and wait for the slip and fall action to commence.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

originally posted by boarkiller
Mac, you are doing disservice to lot of good PH'sI understand those three you mentioned are good, but they are like Hollywood stars, they have the exposure on TV and act like ones.I hunted with guys , people may not have heard of, but they were solid pros that didn't blink under ele or buff charge.We are creating monsters out of some of these guys on TV, but that is the times we are living in.I feel like I wouldn't wanna hunt with them because of the fact that fame can get into their heads, which is seen between the lines on TV.Worship is something that can get all of us in trouble...Nothing worse in life then overconfident man.

Careful hogslayer, you are getting dangerously close to questioning the religion of glory whoredom with this post......

quote:

originally posted by MJines
In truth and fact, I think you are the one doing a disservice to some good PH's. Have you even met Ivan, Buzz or Johan? If you have met them, how much time have you actually spent visiting with and getting to know them? Throwing around phrases like "creating monsters", "fame can get into their heads", "overconfident man", are pretty categorical indictments of folks. I am certain you would not even begin to say those things unless you really knew the individuals to whom your comments were addressed . . . yea, right.

Mike

...and there is the high priest himself

I am proud of you . . . a post with no racial epitaphs or cuss words. Won't be long until we have you wearing shoes.

boarkiller, don't let these worshipers buffalo you, you are spot on. Nuff said.

quote:

Tripping old ladies is so passé. I just hang out at the grocery store and "spill" a little cooking oil on the floor and wait for the slip and fall action to commence.

I thought you spent most of your free time handing out business cards at funerals?

Mjines

I do know what too close is

collapsed lung

quote:

Originally posted by jbderunz:
Mjines

I do know what too close is

collapsed lung

To close for comfort.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

Mac, you are doing disservice to lot of good PH's
I understand those three you mentioned are good, but they are like Hollywood stars, they have the exposure on TV and act like ones.
I hunted with guys , people may not have heard of, but they were solid pros that didn't blink under ele or buff charge.
We are creating monsters out of some of these guys on TV, but that is the times we are living in.
I feel like I wouldn't wanna hunt with them because of the fact that fame can get into their heads, which is seen between the lines on TV.
Worship is something that can get all of us in trouble...
Nothing worse in life then overconfident man.

Boarkiller, you are initialed to your opinion, but then so am I.

Out of courtesy to your opinion rights, I will just say I’m not paying a disservice to anyone anywhere. It is just that I know those three, to be, to a man, all good elephant PHs. Not from their films or books, but from the personal knowledge of friends who have hunted with them for elephant and from conversing with them at DSC and other shows.

At my age, health and financial situation I can’t hunt elephant, but if I could one of those, depending on who was available, would be my PH .

I’m sure you are correct that there are many others that are as well, but I simply don’t know all the PHs in Africa, and I fully doubt you do either.

I have hunted with some very capable PHs in Africa, they just weren’t known for elephant hunting. On cats, and buffalo they were all very good, just had no experience with elephant that I’m aware of. Since I wasn’t hunting elephant I had no reason to check them out on that pursuit.

I don’t think the fact that those three are well known makes them big headed, any more than the old guys that are well known from days gone by, like Taylor, Bell, and Harland, all of which were very good elephant hunters, and I have never heard them described as show-boaters from Hollywood!

....................................................................... Good day!

I think that one reason why Ivan wanting to get very close to an elephant is that it really intenseifies the experience for the hunter and Ivan feeling completely confident in his ability to kill the elephant should things go wrong for the hunter.