I have just been having a discussion with a mate of mine on this topic.

Do you think the 375 Ultra or similar will ever achieve popularity as compared to the 375 as did the 300 Win to the 30/06 and the 7mm Rem to the 270.

My view is that it won't because unlike the 7mm Rem and 300 Win, the additional recoil will be a big issue and the 375 is already at the end of the road for an everyday and everything caliber. I am inclined to think that the inroads on the 375 have already been made BUT by the 338.

What are your views?

Mike

The 375 is here to stay. Like the Rigby it fills a certain niche with both function and nostalgia.

I suspect that the Utra in all calibers will be good competition for all the other belted magnums.

Personally, I'm thinking of a 375 Ultra as a poor man's replacement for Saeed's 375/404.

Don

In terms of mechanical function and inherent lethality, the .375 Holland & Holland is the finest hunting cartridge ever designed for world-wide application.
Astute members of the hunting fraternity regard its' sharp shouldered, high intensity competition as offering trajectory enhancement only, the actual need for which being eternally debatable.
I consider the .375 UM redundant at birth and destined merely to further demonstrate just why the original is still with us.

I also feel that todays new ulti type mags will never replace the standards. the small increase in velocity is not worth the extra recoil and muzzle blast. heavy for diameter bullets in the 2300 to 2600 fps range have proven themselvs as excelent killers of all game.

The only practical advantage I can see to the bigger case is the ability to load to the same velocity levels at a much reduced pressure level. This is the raison d��tre of the Howell line of cartridges and is actually a pretty good idea. I believe Saeed loads his .375/404 to just over .375 H&H velocities although the cartridge is capable of much more.

But will the Ultra�s and who knows what ever replace the old H&H? Maybe. When lead alloy bullets are completely replaced by homogeneous expanding bullets or they alloy lead with something to produce optimum expansion at impact velocities well above what we are used to today. Even with A-Frames and TBBC�s and what not, only the Barnes X bullets seem to really be in their own element at impact velocities much over 2900 fps or so.

Human nature being what it is, and especially American tastes, bigger and faster tend to be bought no matter how much practicality they hold.

BTW, that was an astute observation on the smaller .338 WM being the cartridge that can take anything away from the .375 H&H instead of a bigger and faster .375. I agree. I have a .375 and recently bought a .338. The .338 actually seems to kick worse, being about 2 pounds lighter, but that 2 pounds makes for a more easily carried rifle. And according to reports, for most plains game the .338 with those good A-frames and TBBC�s seems to kill about as well as the old H&H. Can�t verify this personally but will attempt to do so starting this Saturday and for the next several years .

I forget who said this, maybe Ross Seyfried or George Hoffman, but he would skip right over the .375, that the .338 is a better medium and then get a .416 or .458 caliber for a better heavy.

Still, for those that prefer the �one rifle� concept, IMHO the old .375 H&H is still pretty much at the head of the line and will be for the foreseeable future.

From the velocities it seems to be another analogue of the .375 Weatherby but using more powder.

I think there will someday be a new standard .375 available...it will be the .300 WSM necked up to .375. This should provide 2500fps with the 300gr bullet which has been the standard .375 H&H load.

Charl Du Plessis, a PH operating from Pretoria in SA, used a 375 H&H to drop a cape buffalo with a frontal chest shot at 80 metres and the next day he shot a kudu standing broadside at 300 metres. He used the same load for both shots. There are not many other calibres that I can think of, that would be capable of doing that with the same ease and level of recoil as the 375 H&H.

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

I have never been without a 375 H&H and presently have two of them but the truth is I own them out of Nostalgia and I don't think they are much of a DGR gun...I guess thats blasphemy in most circles, but I have used it extensively and prefer the 416 under all circumstances, even for plainsgame with 300 and 350 gr. bullets...I like the 9.x62 and the 338 Win. better than the 375.

I guess my stance is the 375 is neither fish nor fowl in todays gun world, but I can't be without one for some strange obserd reason..

After all it does work most of the time (but I have seen it fail on ocassions)and I don't think some new kid on the block will ever put in out of business...

We are now living in a belt bashing era but that will some come to pass once again and the belt will be rediscovered just like it was 60 years ago when it replaced the beltless case.....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

"DO YOU THINK THE 375H&H WILL EVER BE REPLACED BY THE 375 ULM?"

>>>>>>>>>> NO! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>

Damn Ray! You took the words right outta my mouth!! BUT, I am not as afflicted as you, I have only one 375 and sometimes wonder why I own that one.

There are indeed faster and probably more effective .375 calibers available than the H&H version, such as the .375 Weatherby, Dakota, RUM, etc., but they'll never supplant the .375 H&H.

For one thing, the .375 H&H had such a head start and is so thoroughly entrenched in Africa that it'll never be made obsolete by any upstart .375, no matter how good it is. It's sort of like asking if the .30-06 will ever be made obsolete by the various .300 magnums. Well, the Big Thirties have been around for over seventy years, yet the .30-06 still outsells all of them combined: year-in and year-out.

The .375 H&H also has that special mystique that goes with darned few cartridges. It's a mystique that defies ballistics, terminal performance, or rational arguement. The .375 H&H bespeaks "Africa" more than any other cartridge, pure and simple, which is more than enough to keep it alive for as long as hunters go on safari.

From a practical standpoint, the .375 H&H is quite shootable, more so than bigger .375's, it's still quite versatile and effective, and it's AVAILABLE. I'd rather take my chances at finding some .375 H&H ammo if I were in a pinch than if I had brought something like a .375 "Macaroni", only to lose the bag containing my ammunition in transit. I've had this sort of thing happen before. I'll skip that story, but I have developed a strong conviction that common calibers like the .375 H&H can be a very practical solution to a number of potentially ugly, costly hassles that I'd rather do without.

AD

[This message has been edited by allen day (edited 04-27-2001).]

let's see, I think some of the metric calibers tried it first, then Weatherby attempted to topple the "king' with the 375 and 378 and we know how popular those two are, followed by a few wildcats here and there. Now we come to the newest attempt, Remington's line of "Ultra-Nonsense" calibers that serve no useful purpose.

Somehow I don't think we need to worry too much about this one.

Gentlemen,

I agree with the consensus of the group. I do not believe that the 375 H&H will be replaced or even significantly threatened by the 375 Remington. You have done a good job of stating the reasons why. Its just been around too long, with too many hunters comfortable with this legend. As a body, we are not an adventureous group. We tend to be traditional and conservative when it come to things like this.

Yet, I do believe that the 375 Remington, the 375 Wolverine, and the 375-404 Jeffrey, which are all about the same, are better cartridges than the 375 H&H.

Now, don't throw rocks until you read "the rest of the story."

From my experience and over 23 years of field use and range testing I firmly believe that the 375 H&H's case is too small (81.6 grains of water to the neck-shoulder junction). The 300 Winchester's case has more capacity and it's .230" shorter (82.6 grains).

When I go after game animals such as the cape buffalo with a .375, .416, .458, or .474 rifle I want to use a super premium soft point bullet with a sectional density of .340. That's approximately the same sectional density as the original 410 grain .416 Rigby bullet and is the same as the 500 grain .458" bullet. For the 375 H&H that's a bullet that weighs 335 grains.

My hunting and penetration media testing have convinced me that you need to launch this 335 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,550 to 2,650 fps. That's not possible within acceptable pressures with the small H&H case. Yet, with the larger capacity case of the three cartridges mentioned earlier, it's easily achieved at very low operating pressures.

Think of it this way. A 335 grain .375" bullet fired at a muzzle velocity of 2,650 fps has more muzzle energy than either a 416 Remington or a 458 Winchester, a better trajectory that a 338 Winchester, and lower operating pressures than the 375 H&H. That to me is a great cartridge.

Good Hunting !

[This message has been edited by Pumba (edited 04-28-2001).]

No I don't think it will.Along the same lines as Don G and Mike375 said the 375 H&H has too many tricks up it's sleeves.

No new cartridge today can match it in nostalgia which is rather self evident.-until we invent time travel anyway.

Jim in Idaho's point about new aged bullets functioning at higher velocities than the H&H can provide is a valid future scenario.

However the 375 has another trick there too. Recoil levels.
Or performance per recoil.

One thing I have seen Mike375 try and get across since I have known him is the recoil factor and how the 375 seems to represent a threshhold for all day shooting.

With some Aussie hunters shooting dozens of animals a day, using fun guns(ie ones that are too big but fun!) you see the 375 H&H at it's good old original loadings at about as much recoil anyone can stand for shooting all day from feild positions.

I think the african pros who do culls might back this up.

Not a lot of hunters who shoot all day, including myself, so this represents a small percentage. But I think the average hunter still responds to this threshhold.
It's what keeps the H&H in the market and could be another reason it got into the market in the first place.

Karl.

NO,no,NO, The idea is not to replace guns in our collection but to add guns to our collection. You dont sell your H&H you just buy a ultra. Personally I only own one gun for africa its a 375 H&H and I know for sure that it will kill buffalo, elephant, lion, leopard and lots of plains game and that gentleman is good enough fo this ol timer.

In a word, NO!! The .375 H&H is going nowhere except into the chambers of some of the finest hunting rifles ever built. This will continue for our lifetimes, to be sure. The cartridge simply has too much history, accuracy, as well as performance to be killed off by some kind of "stylish newbe". I'm not knocking the Ultra, but it will NEVER replace the H&H. Gun owners, and hunters look for more than performance numbers in a book to be swayed. The .375 H&H has established a record in the field that, in my opinion, will never be duplicated, in my lifetime anyway. Bill T.

Which is a good reason for the .375 Weatherby. The ability to push projectiles 200 fps faster than the .375 H&H, yet still able to shoot .375 H&H ammo if the Weatherby stuff gets lost.

Will the 375 H&H ever be replaced by 375 Ultra or similar?

Not anytime soon !!!
There are so many of them out there.
And they will be inherited by the next generation.

Warrior

It has been the 'Queen' of Africa for nearly 100 years factory loads are available pretty well everywhere. If you reload you can have projectiles from 270gn up to 350gn, it has a fairly good trajectory and more than reasonable stopping power that's IMHO.

If all is equal, it will be here for another hundred years but by then I won't be about like the rest of you.

Reviving a thread after a decade has to be a record!

For the record, I don't think the H&H is going anywhere. It is likely to be dancing the funky chicken long after the 375 UM's funeral.

quote:

Originally posted by kiwiwildcat:
Which is a good reason for the .375 Weatherby. The ability to push projectiles 200 fps faster than the .375 H&H, yet still able to shoot .375 H&H ammo if the Weatherby stuff gets lost.

Interesting; Doc Robertson (Doctari) says in his book about shoot buff that its better to slow down the venerable .375 H&H for better performance. His point is the .375 is too fast and has too much penetration for broadside shots.

Ten years later and the same answers. Any more and it's too much recoil.

with the benefit of a decade of hindsight I say no.

Gerard not to highjack but can you post loads for 375 RUM with 265hv and 270 fn. I have sent emails but no answer.

my current 375 cal I am shooting is a 378 wby. Will it replace the H ana H??? No. I do not use the 378 for dangerous game but instead use it as a long range hammer. I find that the 375 H&H feeds better from the magazine than the bigger 375's and you can hold more rounds. It has more than enough penetration for its intended purpous and has light recoil for the amount of power it can generate. It is not a powder hog when reloading and brass is inexpensive. It will not burn up barrels and destroy scopes. I would not stay home from any hunt if I only had a 375 H&H.

Nope, at least not in any of our life times.

465H&H

dittos on 465H&H

I have a 300 Ultra Mag and a 375 H&H mag in the same brand and specs. The 300 ultra gets left on the shelf,, the 375 goes to the field. The recoil on the ultr is the main factor,, it is a real thumper and I am not recoil sensitve. I pick up my 416 rigby over the Ultra anyday,,,The 375 and my rigby have what I need in big bores and large animal capability,,

quote:

Will the 375 H&H ever be replaced by 375 Ultra or similar

No, not now that 10yrs later we finally have the .375Ruger

quote:

Originally posted by Mike375:
I have just been having a discussion with a mate of mine on this topic.

Do you think the 375 Ultra or similar will ever achieve popularity as compared to the 375 as did the 300 Win to the 30/06 and the 7mm Rem to the 270.

What are your views?

Mike

IMO, there is only one answer to the question, and that is "NO!"

The 30-06 was only the most often chosen by Amercans! It never was the favorite of the world like the 375 H&H!

quote:

The .338 actually seems to kick worse

I would agree with that statement. I've had one .338 or another for 30+ years, but just got my fitst .375 H&H about 5 years ago. Haven't shot the .338 since, but I have used the .375 on everything from francolin to ele.

My three favorite Africa calibers are 9,3x74R, .375 H&H, and .470 NE. Just because they're all a hundred years or so old doesn't mean they don't all kill things as dead as they ever did.

It's still true: One Planet, One Rifle, .375 H&H

The more I hunt with it......less I think using of other calibers....

And yes, it will be around, and successfully as it as been for decades to come.

quote:

I think there will someday be a new standard .375 available...it will be the .300 WSM necked up to .375. This should provide 2500fps with the 300gr bullet which has been the standard .375 H&H load.

Uhh...Have you noticed the .375 Ruger? It is practically speaking, a 300 WSM necked up to .375. It outdoes the H&H with a shorter action, and in particular with a much shorter barrel (20 inches). Tradition dies hard, so the old H&H will hang on. But I believe that practical, pragmatic hunters will choose the .375 Ruger as long as Hornady keeps making good, cheap ammo with those great bullets.

The 375 H&H will be alive and well as long as firearms and hunting are legal!

1) Great caliber - for everything!!!

2) Hundreds of thousands of weapons chambered in the round have been sold over the years - guaranteed ongoing demand.

3) Nostalgia both in terms of collectable and "new sales". Again, strong demand ongoing.

4) Global availability; always some .375 HH hanging around camp and is sold worldwide (where legal).

5) Not everybody is a gun crank! While I am in favor of the gun and ammo companies producing new and interesting calibers / loadings, the majority of folks have their favorite "go to" hunting rifles and no doubt the .375 H&H Magnum is at the top of the "somebody's favorite rifle" category.

No, the new round of "better, faster, smaller / whatever" won't send the classic and still most functional of all medium bores to the grave anytime soon if ever!

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Vol717:

quote:

I think there will someday be a new standard .375 available...it will be the .300 WSM necked up to .375. This should provide 2500fps with the 300gr bullet which has been the standard .375 H&H load.

Uhh...Have you noticed the .375 Ruger? It is practically speaking, a 300 WSM necked up to .375. It outdoes the H&H with a shorter action, and in particular with a much shorter barrel (20 inches). Tradition dies hard, so the old H&H will hang on. But I believe that practical, pragmatic hunters will choose the .375 Ruger as long as Hornady keeps making good, cheap ammo with those great bullets.

There are many .375 cartridges that, as you say "OUT DO" the old 375H&H balisticly on paper! The .375Ruger is one of them but if not for the new rifle brought out to house it; the cartridge would have already died on the vine! The rifle is what is new not the cartridge is simply duplicates several wildcat cartridges that have come and gone. All were going to displace the old comfortable stand-bys.

There are other considerations in cartridge design that define its long popularity! Some simply work better from several different aspects. For instance the way the design feeds through many types of actions, adequate chamber pressures, at adequate velocity that allow long brass life. The ability that no one can explain, the old H&H 375 to place bullets of different weights, and shapes in the same groups, along with milder felt recoil because of the long case giving the powder capacity, yet offering more of a "PUSH", than the "SHARP" recoil of shortened cases, or the ultra velocity of things like the 378 WBY MAG witch requires long free-bore to avoid over pressure of the severely over bore capacity round. Yet none of these so-called improved .375 cartridges kill game any deader than the old 1912 .375H&H. The ammo is available in any country that allows big game hunting, and in Africa the top three cartridges that are available in most hunting camps are the .375H&H, the 458 Win Mag, and the 470NE in case someone fails to load your ammo on the plane you arrived on!
There are may fine cartridges on the market today, but there are none that will cause the old 375H&H to fade away from the hunting scene in may life time! Being a medium bore cartridge that is capable of taking the larges animals walking the Earth today, yet is a fine flat shooting cartridge that makes it a fine ONE RIFE FOR THE WORLD!

Gentlemen don't be in too much of a hurry to play the death knell for the old 99 year old warrior!

quote:

Gentlemen don't be in too much of a hurry to play the death knell for the old 99 year old warrior!

AMEN!!!

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaCole:

quote:

Originally posted by kiwiwildcat:
Which is a good reason for the .375 Weatherby. The ability to push projectiles 200 fps faster than the .375 H&H, yet still able to shoot .375 H&H ammo if the Weatherby stuff gets lost.

Interesting; Doc Robertson (Doctari) says in his book about shoot buff that its better to slow down the venerable .375 H&H for better performance. His point is the .375 is too fast and has too much penetration for broadside shots.

Because in my humble opinion, the good doctor is married to that theory when bullets did not hold together very well. With the advent of today's super premiums like the TSX for example, you whack an animal with a 300gr @ 2400 and one 2900 (like a 378) and then tell me there isn't a difference.

Is there any more enjoyment to be found than sighting in a .375 ultra howitzer at 2900 or heck let's make it 3000 fps. I think there was a method to the old time hunters/gun makers, that worked. I think the words new and overkill describe this new stuff out there. Maybe thee classiest, best looking, easy to use, slick feeding, dependable cartridge, African associated cartridge name, If you don't bring a rifle over with you for your hunt ( Here use this .375 H&H). All the animals in Africa are the same as they were in 1912. Boutique bullets
just make it the cats pajamas. You don't get detatched retinas, rotor cuff surgery, bleeding from the ears, migraine headaches, broken fingers, availabilty of ammunition and great trophies. You can also tell everyone that it was great to use something so great that no one
can even take credit for its existence. Everything about it just oozes style, function
reliability and history. So neck down the .50
cal browning and show us all a thing or two.
I have my H&H.
Kidd

I have 2 - 375 H&H rifles. One was just built for me last year. Out of approx. 65 rifles I own, I typically carry 2 for hunting, a 300 WM or one of the 375 H&H.
The 375 H&H will do it all quite nicely, maybe not the best for all game, but not far from the best.
I see no reason to try to improve on it. We're not creating different animal.