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7 August 2009 Dear Sir It has come to my attention that a new entity has formed under the John Rigby & Co. name and are now attempting to offer John Rigby guns and rifles under the trade name John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Ltd. As the former chairman of J. Rigby and Co. and the former holder of the Rigby Royal Warrant, I wish to disassociate myself entirely from this new venture and make it clear that it has no connection with the old firm. For the record, I was the majority shareholder of J. Rigby and Co. from 1984 until 1997, when the intellectual property rights, name and goodwill associated therewith were sold and assigned to John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Inc., a Californian corporation. Having such a long standing interest in the firm, I was retained by the U.S. Company as both a UK agent and supplier. We have since continued to make J. Rigby & Co. rifles and shotguns in England using craftsmen long associated with the Rigby name. Under the circumstances, I wish it to be known that the new entity John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers), Ltd. is in no way associated with the old firm, its staff or its products. Equally they have no connection with any guns and rifles manufactured and sold by J. Rigby & Co in the USA. Sincerely PAUL ROBERTS J Roberts & Son (Gunmakers) Ltd J Roberts & Son (Gunmakers) Ltd 22 Wyvil Road LONDON SW8 2TG PH: 0207 622 1131 FX: 0207 627 4442 | ||
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 WOW.....this will be fun to watch  DRSS & Bolt Action Trash | |||
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I'm taking the seat next to yours!! This should be good. | |||
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The Board of Directors John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd Jno.Rigby& Co. Dear Mr Roberts Thank you for confirming what we have said all along. We state for the record as we have done many times over the past few days, John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd, has no connection with a company of a similar name registered in the United States, nor heaven help us, would we wish to claim any. John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd, has no connection with any former company bearing that name. That was operated by your good self. Again we have stated this categorically before. Thank you also, for confirming by omission, that John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd has not traded on the intellectual property rights, name and goodwill of John Rigby & Co. Inc. Had we done so doubtless you would have taken this opportunity to say so. It is nice to have that question answered for the gun buying public. If you wish to claim ownership of the standard of work featured on the recent John Rigby & Co. Inc./Merkel Guns, then frankly I must express my extreme surprise. However if you wish that, to be included as a footnote to your long and distinguished career in the English gun trade, so be it. Yours Sincerly John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) Ltd Jno.Rigby& Co. | |||
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".... not with a ten foot pole!" as we say in the South. Intent? Bad Faith? Just saying snotty things that will piss off a jury or other trier of fact???? And if a party is in Dallas or Reno doing business, where is the jurisdiction, etc. Someone, perhaps without the advice of counsel, is creating evidence that they damn well may wish that they had not. JMHO.  JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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This could have all been avoided had not Roberts sold the name to begin with .... going for the bucks. Why whine now? ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I do not see complaint or whining - simply a very clear statement. Cheers I say, to clarity! Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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Paul Roberts made a very clear statement. The New Rigby guys have made several snide remarks including the one directed at Paul Roberts. If their rifles are so good why do they have to steal a name purchased by Rigby of California? This should be a time of excitement with another quality double entering the market. It fits the budget of many (including me). But the use of the Rigby name and the attitude will prevent me from ever owning one. | |||
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Sadly what are all these names anyhow. Even if they are based in England, the lineage is no longer from the original familes and owners and the workmanship has varied greatly over time. The names still conjure up images of a time that once was. | |||
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And that's about it! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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For whatever reason the new Merkel actioned Rigby's command quite a lot less in the marketplace than the English guns. Is this due to snobbery or difference in perceived value, or is there a difference in fit,finish, and pointability? Who's action does the new Rigby double use, is the quality there? If they hang low enuf on the tree for me to reach I don't care about the other stuff. Adrian | |||
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This will just make the original London made Rigbys all the more valuable. 465H&H | |||
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There is a thread about them in the Double Rifle forum with more info. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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I am not sure what is going, but anyone starting a new company using the name of a long established company, that is still trading, is asking for trouble. | |||
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Exactly right Saeed. Many years back a fellow named McDonald started selling burgers here in SA under "his own" name. This was before Mac Donalds even had a pressence here. He was still stopped pretty smartly from carrying on! Plagarism sucks  http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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| <Mike McGuire> |
I doubt whether anyone on AR has ever purchased a brand new English double and it is hard to see the new Rigby situation changing that status  | ||
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+1 even though, on principal I would never buy a 'rigby' that was made in America, I will certainly never buy a 'wanabe' Rigby even if it is made in mud island. | |||
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Because the value of the Rigby name being used in California will lose value if there is a London based Rigby making more authentic guns. I'm sure the Rigby in Cali guys blew a gasket and started riding Mr. Roberts to stand up for the brand he sold them. | |||
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I actually don't see a problem with it at all. As I see it, someone wanted to begin making good quality products (rifles in this case) at a very good price and they registered a previously used but available company name to enable them to do so. Companies do that very thing all over the world every day. From what I've seen the product looks helluva good quality and prices are more than reasonable when compared to similar products of similar quality from other companies. If I were in the market for such a product I'd most certainly consider all options including this one and the quality & price of all those options would be considerably more important to me than the name of the company. Frankly, as I see it, if anyone slipped up it would be the person who allowed the original UK company registration to lapse and as I see it, if they allowed that to happen they shouldn't be suprised that someone else chose to register that or a similar name.......... | |||
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Steve, I do see a problem with it. It may be legal, but to me it is not ethical. The sad part it seems to be a fine rifle with a good price. The Rigby name IMO just muddied the waters. And yes Miller should have registered the name in England. I liken it to you not registering shakariconnection.org and somebody starting a hunting site (or gay porn) with that address. Legal, not ethical. | |||
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What I want to know is, does the "new" John Rigby & Co. Ltd. have a web site. I would be interested in a well made double rifle costing less than $35,000. | |||
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Mike, I take your point but we get plenty of warning every year that our domain name is going to expire on a certain date and it's up to us to renew it. If we choose not to do so then if someone else steps in and registers that domain then we would have no right to squeal....... and certainly no right to do anything about it. Sure it would piss us off but we would be certain that we renew the domain in plenty of time so that no-one can do that. I'm not 100% sure but I think you'll find that the company name was available for a considerable time before it was taken which would imply the previous owners had no further use for it. | |||
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As I posted above, see the thread on the double rifle board. Link Plagiarism is using someone else's work, typically writing, without attribution, and is not the same as infringement of copyright or trademark. Not saying either is going on here as that is not my area of expertise. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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There is a very simple compromise here; J Rigby and Co (Gunmakers) Ltd should change their name and then allow the quality of their products and the satisfaction of their customers be a testament to their professionalism and good character. Grumulkin - If you are looking for a quality English made double around the $35,000.00 mark look at T. Proctor. | |||
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Good point, but "authentic" means different things to different people. To some people it means buying something with a name that they associate value with, regardless of the reality of how the gun/rifle is made on Fanuc machines or by a guy with a file. To others it means something reliable and accurate. To each their own. I have no dog in this fight, but it was easy to see this coming years ago when the California Rigby company had articles written about them by Boddington and others. It appeared that the new owners with clearly different looking rifles made in, gulp, sunny Kalifornia saying "dude" instead of foggy London saying "chap" would alienate people who want traditional rifles and bring in some new buyers who want something different. Its a fair business model and its their choice, but you could imagine the feelings of the folks back in London way back then. We have a similar situation in Bozeman, MT. If you drive past a few strip mall looking places you'll see Westly Richards on a stucco building shared by some other business. The new owners are great folks and have been very helpful/friendly/good inventory/nice shop interior/quality merchandise, etc., but I imagined that if you had ownership of, nay, responsibility of such a great name in the US that a different ambiance would be more appropriate for such a great company. Anyone remember New England Arms in Kittery, Maine? That's where I bought my first double rifle and its the type of shop I'd associate with the Westly Richards name. However, I didn't buy the name and the new owners have the right to follow their own business model, just not my cup of tea. The Rigby deal is similar to what happened at Dakota Arms, Sharps and several other rifle manufacturers: when the current owner takes a check from the "rich" guy and cashes it, they no longer control the name, quality, designs, distribution or image of the company. Several original Dakota guys are now on their own and I hope they're doing well. There are so many Sharps-named rifle makers or rifle marketers in Montana its pathetic. One of them even wants to make AR-style rifles. No kidding. I hope animosity dies down and that both companies do well doing their own thing with hilariously similar names. Should be fun at the Safari Club Show. "which Rigby are you referring to?" | |||
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One could argue Business ethics all day and night,just like some folks do about what method or distance all manner of game is "shot" or "hunted" at. What they have done is completely legal, no theft involved,no dishonesty involved. A Californication Rigby was never my style, and IF the new setup brings back some British taste to the product, thats a good thing. If anyone dont like what,how or why as to what they will produce, simple, dont buy one! other worldly examples; # Rolls Royce is owned by BMW, # Bentley owned by VW. the RR,Bentley,BMW,VW Story. # Jaguar is owned by Ford. # Aston Martin after 20yrs being owned by Ford, belongs now to ProDrive. # Ferrari is under main control of the Fiat Group. # Harrods of London is owned by you know who....& some will be happy to know they continue to sell fur despite protests. 1990: A Harrods shop opens onboard the Queen Mary in Long Beach, which was then owned by the Walt Disney Company... (  ) # THe famous Beatles music rights were purchased by Michael Jackson. Some folks may need to put emotions & sentimentality aside and get a grip of global business practices & dynamics. Its an dog eat dog corporate world out there, and simply wishing&hoping for ethical ideals often aint enough to survive that environment. Its up to you to remain aware and look after your own interests,be it an Co. name,Logo,Emblem-intellectual property. Most important thing now is; Build a good rifle & look after the customer. | |||
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+1 You have to ask yourself, what kind of people would pull this "technical" play- I would expect it of some small outfit out of China trying to sell Timex watches....otherwise I think you have a fair idea of the quality of business they will operate and how they perceive the rules and ethics of business...we are forewarned! ______________________________ "Are you gonna pull them pistols,...or whistle Dixie??" Josie Wales 1866 | |||
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Ditto Steve McQueen. Let's just see what kind of bozos the london rigby clowns turn out to be. Their web site ... http://www.johnrigbylondon.com/index.htm ... looks like it was cooked up by one of the trolls from AR.com.  | |||
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It serves no better purpose to prejudge them in the negative than to assume they are better than the CalRigby folks. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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| <Mike McGuire> |
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at least the CalRigby folks had the decency to pay for the brand name. the London folks just plain stole it, legally or otherwise. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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Do you have evidence of actual theft? "Stole" implies a criminal violation of some law. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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there is legal and then there is ethical, and as far as i am concerned ethical thievery is still thievery. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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They applied for the name and were granted it, if anyone dont like it, take it up with the regulating authority that allows many such legal transactions on regular basis. Its a bit like lost property, If people dont care to claim it in an certain amount of time,it can become legally available to someone else through bonafied purchase. In the case of Corporate registration or Itellectual property, you loose it through basic ignorance or lazyness to maintain ownership. If I let my company name go, I know that someone can legally take it for themselves after a certain period, so I would have no cause to whine if I failed to maintain my interests, they give you more than fair notice/warning, if one decides not to act and reregister their interest,..tough and fool you! You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink. | |||
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goes back to ethical vs. legal- i just prefer ethical. but then i don't chase ambulances for a living Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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Why Thank you!  ______________________________ "Are you gonna pull them pistols,...or whistle Dixie??" Josie Wales 1866 | |||
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www.johnrigbylondon.com | |||
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How's this for an idea. CalRigby changes their name back to Rogue River Rifles, reduces the prices back to their true value and allows an Historic name to once again become a valued asset to the Gunmaking Community. Gator A Proud Member of the Obamanation "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 "There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them." George Orwell | |||
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Lots of things are legal but unethical. I don't like the idea of assuming a repected name and pushing your new product under that name. Its misleading to the public. However, this kind of stuff happens more & more as business ethics & integrity continues its decline. You are not likely to change the ethics. For me, the answer to the issue is to avoid the product. Even if I could afford it I would not buy a gun from the new Calif. Rigby. If they are unethical using the name, what else would they do. Shoddy manufacture? Warranty any good; would they faithfully stand behind the product? | |||
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