As most of you will know, I have a strong dislike of dodgy Lion hunts and the ethics of those who offer them, so I thought some of you might be interested in seeing typical differences you might look for should you need to know what a pen raised Lion will look like compared to one that has grown up in the wild and had to fight for his place in Leonine society.

Below are pics of two Lions of similar (ish) age. On pen raised and one not. I'll leave you to decide which is which!

Man,

That bottom guy sure has a lot of battle scars.....

Well by the way they are posed it is sort of a give away to support your point of view.

Die, let me guess,, you have a too pretty lion in your den.

the top one must be wild ..he has that "wild" look in his eyes. The bottom one has NO eyes and therefore must be a tame lion

troy

I am sure that it will become vogue amongst taxidermists to "distress" canned lions to make them look wild-----just like they distress new furniture to make it look like an antique.

the bottom one looks like you Steve just a bit more attractive

Rudi,

I feel a bit like the one on the bottom as well....... a bit beaten up and battle scarred and just wanting to sit in the sun and not have any bugger bothering me!

Maybe it's getting close to when both he and I should consider retiring huh!

I thought I saw a track in the top lions mane where the ribbon had been...perhaps it had just been brushed out...

let me guess - uh - the top one has had his teeth brushed

Top one is the wild lion

Andrew McLaren was kind enough to write a brilliantly informative piece on the subject for our shakari connection site and the link below might also be of interest. Andrew has absolutely hit the nail bang on the head!

IMO, it's one of the best and most accurate articles I've ever read.

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

Is there really a problem with this on a large scale basis? Obviously you guys seem to think so. I know there is large demand for the cheap easy canned hunts and you them have a 18 hour flight back to the US to make up your story of how close you came to getting the chop from "Fluffy". This is repulsive enough. I guess I am not surprised though. Greed is after all greed.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Is there really a problem with this on a large scale basis?

Yes, unfortunately there is.

Shakari,

Obviously you are aware of specific outfitters who engage in this type of chicanery. Can you at least give a clue as to which areas or countries this might occur?

Jeff

quote:

Andrew McLaren was kind enough to write a brilliantly informative piece on the subject for our shakari connection site and the link below might also be of interest. Andrew has absolutely hit the nail bang on the head!

IMO, it's one of the best and most accurate articles I've ever read.

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

Andrew's info regarding Etosha lions are obviously misinterpeted. There is VERY FEW lions shot legally as trophies on any kind of problem permit close to Etosha (private land anyway.). A lot are shot illigally every year, and I will bet that very close to none was ever captured/ captive bred. The loophole is that land-owners let an client shoot a lion without a trophy hunting permit, then declare they shot it themselfs in defence of their cattle, and then "donates" the skin/ trophy to the hunter.

Bwana Bunduki,

The article says it all really. The problem began and is largest in RSA but it's not confined to one country and the surrounding countries are also slowly becoming increasingly infected with the disease.

The long and the short of it is that if you want to be sure you're hunting a truly wild Lion is to only hunt it in a true wilderness area.

I obviously can't name names but this link might also be of help: http://www.shakariconnection.c...canned-shooting.html

I think the only country where canned lion hunts have been conducted is South Africa.

Also, my impression is that at least 80% of those who pay to shoot a canned lion know precisely what they are doing. They just pretend they are shooting a wild lion.

The other 20% come specifically to shoot a canned lion, as they really have no wish to go and actually do a lion hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Shakari,

Obviously you are aware of specific outfitters who engage in this type of chicanery. Can you at least give a clue as to which areas or countries this might occur?

Jeff

South Africa, South Africa & South Africa. Zambia just might have a few of these too.

Guys,

There's no doubt the problem originated in RSA, but there's absolutely no doubt that it's also spread to other countries and Andrew's article tells you exactly how it 'may' happen.

I have also heard of a few snoozing kitties crossing into Zim via Beitbridge...

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
Andrew's info regarding Etosha lions are obviously misinterpeted. There is VERY FEW lions shot legally as trophies on any kind of problem permit close to Etosha (private land anyway.). A lot are shot illigally every year, and I will bet that very close to none was ever captured/ captive bred. The loophole is that land-owners let an client shoot a lion without a trophy hunting permit, then declare they shot it themselfs in defence of their cattle, and then "donates" the skin/ trophy to the hunter.

Karl,

This is becoming a real problem along the Etosha border.

If you want to hunt Lion in Namibia close to Etosha make sure you have the trophy permit in hand (check personally) if the landowner or PH come up with excuses be 100% guaranteed this is a Lion that was lured out of Etosha with some or another unethical practise.

Saeeds comments reflect what I would say 100%. I don't believe for a minute that there is any wild lion hunting in RSA nor that most hunters there don't know exactly what they are getting for their money. MGM lions only come from cages, period.

If I was going to shoot a lion off a gut pile, I think I would choose #2.

I think the second lion is the pen lion, because he has been cut up and lost most of his mane in the fence, while the first lion is all beautiful because of the wide-open spaces....

I personally think there's a relatively high number of people hunt what they think or are led to believe are wild Lions when in fact, are not quite so wild.

It wasn't that long ago that a guy made a post saying 3 of them had each hunted (if I remember correctly) a Lion and Lioness each in something like 7 days hunting. His comment that stuck in my my mind was 'the most fun you can have with your pants on'

I seem to remember he disappeared after he was told it had obviously been a canned hunt, but I'm sure until that point, he was not at all aware of that fact.

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../6321043/m/186107086

Shakari,

I think this is the hunt report you are referring to in your post.

Craig Boddington shot a lion with Dirk De Bod in Namibia near Etosha Park. According to what I saw on "Tracks Across Africa", the lion was a PAC animal and he killed it over bait on a cattle ranch.

Was that not what it appeared? De Bod and Boddington both have solid reputations.

When your business partner works in MET, you tend to get more than your share of PAC lion permits.

Notice that De Bod had to have a dangerous game licensed PH officially handle that hunt also.

Are there truly places out there that are not bounded by something, somewhere?

quote:

Are there truly places out there that are not bounded by something, somewhere?

Sorry Sue, that doesn't wash. The problem is not simply the fences, it is how the game is raised.

If it was pen raised it is not wild.

Recently someone said that he paid X thousands extra so that his RSA lion hunt would not be "canned."

The hunt may have taken place on an unfenced property, but if the lion was pen raised it is still canned no matter how much extra you spent.

quote:

There's no doubt the problem originated in RSA, but there's absolutely no doubt that it's also spread to other countries and Andrew's article tells you exactly how it 'may' happen.

shakari, I do not agree. There are plenty of wild lions along Etosha, so that there is really no need for "introducing" lions. that kite just does not fly in Namibia as far as I know.

Also, I have shot real wild lions in close to the numbers you mentioned (3 males in 4 days), that where causing problems, with clients. It does not mean because we have a high success rate that it was canned. I understand yoru frustration with canned lion shooting, but it looks like you are trying to paint too broad with that black paint brush of yours.

Concerning Dirk de Bod and Craig Boddington's hunt, I do not have the details, but I am sure it was legal. I stated that MOST where done illigal, not all. Most of the illigal hunts along Etosha are also done by PH's WITHOUT Big Game licences.

Karl,

I'm not for a moment suggesting there are no wild Lions around Etosha or other areas for that matter. Just that it can and does occasionally happen.

I'm sure that most hunts in that and most areas are perfectly legitimate and the dodgy ones are the exception to the rule rather than the other way round.

quote:

I'm sure that most hunts in that and most areas are perfectly legitimate and the dodgy ones are the exception to the rule rather than the other way round.

That was part of the point I am trying to make, its the other way around, a lot of land owners offer illegal lion hunting (wild lions) around Etosha, and very few legal ones are taken there. These lions might be taken without a trophy hunting permit, and thus be illegally taken, but they are not canned. All I am saying is that I would be surprised if any at all are canned. In Andrew's article he seems to think that these hunts are also canned, where they are clearly not. He missed the point, that they are illegal because there is no (or very few rather) trophy hunting permit for these hunts.

Karl,

We're talking on cross issues here. The article addrsses the hand reared Lion issue and explains how the various shennanigans can and sometimes do work. Nothing else.

You're talking about how permits for wild Lions get juggled/abused up there and the articles don't address those issues at all.

If you think it's a matter that does need addressing and you want to address it, so people don't get misled, feel free to e-mail me at shakari3@mweb.co.za and maybe we can discuss you writing something for the connection site on the matter.

Your well informed and well balanced input would be very welcome.

Recieved the following some time ago - one doesn't have to be an expert... I believe many go for it with full knowledge of what it is all about:

- 3 day package Kalahari lion:

...doubled...

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
MGM lions only come from cages, period.

Not necessarily as the below examples of wild MGM lions show












Interesting how a 2 year old (Package 1) costs less than half of a 6 year old (package 4). I hope that those PH's that allow us to shoot 2-3 year olds offer a discount after having charged us full whack for our "trophy lion hunt"

Sorry Mich, but those do not qualify as MGM Lion. They have scars and Hollywood, as everyone knows, does not tolerate such.

Nothing a little hollywood Taxidermy make-up can't hide