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JR

The man behind the gun is the stopper, however, human element aside... I would say "stoppers" start with the 458s.

shhhh I think I hear George Hoffman comming!!

But to answer the question, a �stopper� is any gun that delivers a heavy enough bullet at high enough velocities in order to generate sufficient energy. Let�s put it this way, anything that generates over 4500 ft-lbs is going to �influence� what ever it hits. The .416 Rigby generates 5116 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle with a 400gr bullet. The .458 WinMag generates 5132 ft-lbs at the muzzle with a 500gr bullet. (Accordingly, the .416 will have greater penetration all things being equal.)

Now, if you hit a charging elephant in the butt or leg with a �stopper� it ain�t gonna stop and think about what just happened. In order to �stop� the animal you must unplug the power. In short, a brain shot. Energy delivered in the form of a bullet which is introduced into the brain of the animal is what makes a �stopper�.

So, should a .416 or even a .375 be considered a �stopper�? You betcha.

By the way JR, welcome to the forum.

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 07-18-2001).]

I will state the 416 and 404 are more than capable..All require good bullet placement.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

My own opinion is that the .416 should be consider a "stopper", albeit at or near the entry level position of the category. So, perhaps the real big boys (.460 Weatherby, .577 T-Rex, .500 A-square et al) should be called "stompers". Or maybe still call them "stoppers", but with a qualifier...for example, "stopper, with malice aforethought"???

Canuck

The only one who ever spent any time in hospital because of an animal related injury was the one with the Gibbs and he was run over, hooked and flipped by a buff when he was out without his rifle on a private ranch.

I guess the moral of the story is a "stopper" is wht you have in your hands when you need it.

An interesting aside is that, and maybe Ray can help me with this one... is that I shoot my 404 jeff quite abit and have a harder time seeing a difference between it and the 458s then 416s and 458s... maybe I missing something? or maybe I just am bias.

I hate to disagree (but I do that a lot), but "stopper" means just what is implied, to stop or turn an animal in a charge, when it isn't brained or spined.

A 460 Wby., a 416 Rigby, and a 470 NE are not stoppers on near brain shots, from first hand experience. So what is? I don't know, maybe a 500 Jeffery, a 600 or 700 NE, in the best next place other than the brain.

If anybody thinks a 416 is a stopper, please tell me where to send the sympathy card.

Will

The word "stopper" means ending the fight right this very second!

And to do that, a bullet has to be placed in the brain of whatever is after your skin - I am assuming he has already got you in his sights!

The overwhelming criteria here is PENETRATION. Forget about the size of the bullet, if it gets to the brain, it will stop that critter.

Personally, I do not subscribe to the theory that a bigger, heavier bullet missing the brain by a few inches is going to stop an animal. While a smaller, lighter bullet in the same place will not.

Animals are not all equal, and behave very differently to each other. One might drop in his tracks with a specific shot, while another might show no sign of being hit.

This, of course, does not apply if a vital organ like the brain is hit - again, regardless of caliber.

What this means is you have to stand your ground, and make sure that bullet goes in the right place.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

You don�t shoot a charging buff, ele, rhino somewhere in the head or body and magically convince them to stop the charge and wander off in another direction. If you believe that �close counts� you have been reading and believing way too much marketing material from Roy Weatherby. This ain�t horseshoes and we aren�t playing with hand grenades - close does not count.

The point is, the concept of a �stopper� is a myth; a marketing ploy. Yes, there are plenty of huge calibers that deliver tremendous amounts of energy. But when you are face-to-face with a dangerous animal, the only thing that will make an impression on the beast is a brain shot. Everyone can kick me for what I am about to say - Mark Sullivan doesn�t kill buff at his feet with a head shot, he kills buff with a brain shot. He his literally inches away from making a mistake. If he ever misses the brain, he is finished with the video business. His last video will be the one that I purchase - I�m still am rooting for the buff.

Repeat after me - adequate caliber, generating sufficient energy, achieving proper shot placement, and with ample penetration to the brain is what "stops" an animal.

If that is the definition of a "stopping rifle", might as well get out the 7mm Mauser and throw all the rest of them away. If it was good enough for Bell...

but it wasn't good enough for... let's see, Taylor, Hunter, Sutherland, Foran, Sanchez-Arino, etc., etc., etc.

Will

It is me again. I still disagree. On buff you will not stop them, for the most part, without braining them. But you can turn an ele without braining them. I've done it, and has nothing to do with Weatherby advertising.

If all you want is penetration, get out the 7mm Mauser, as you can brain a buff with it, and a lot less gun for that matter. So the next buff hunt, I hope to hear that you took something on the order of a 7x57, or less, and the PH without a rifle altogether!!!

Get 'em.

Will

P.S. - All this forum talk is supposedly in good fun. Some people have been there and some haven't. I can tell you have, but so have I and I know better than to venture forth after buff, and any other DG, without the big gun and you'll never convince me otherwise.

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A .416 or .404 is certainly gun enough to be a �stopper�. While Bell went out and killed hundreds of elephant with his trusty 7 X 57, there ain�t no way this boy is showing up in the jungle with a pea shooter like that.

The point that I was making was there are only three of four calibers that generate more than 6000 ft-lbs of energy. Most are built on huge actions in order to address recoil. There are not too many men that can confidently shoot them in pressure situations. I do not know of one PH that uses them as backup. I have read about a small handful, however, I have never seen it done.

The .416 and the .404 are in the 5000 ft-lb class as are the 475 Nitro, 500 Nitro Express, 470 Nitro Express, .450 Rigby, .458 WinMag, and .460 Weatherby. All of these calibers are relatively easy to handle. That is if you can handle a true big bore. My .450 Dakota is about all the gun I can confidently shoot. It is a beast for sure, and I can choose to load it up to 6000 ft-lbs if I desire. The punishment it imparts to the shooter is more than I wish to address at these energy levels.

On your side of the discussion, when mister buff or ele is in my face, I would love to have my hands firmly wrapped around a double 600 Nitro - if I could even shoot the thing properly. When the first shot is fired and you make eye-to-eye contact with a pissed ele, nothing is too large!!

So here is the question - What constitutes a stopper? At what energy levels does the stopper class begin in your mind?

I am a recent convert to the 416's on the eve of my first Safari. I am about to get some African experience. I have sought out a couple of water buffalo as a test of guns.
Each of them I shot first in the chest and then in the neck to finish.

The first was with a 460 Weatherby, and the second was with a 416 Rigby.

I couldn't tell any difference between the two.

Being hitherto deprived of Africa, I have done some mental entertainment with gun terminology to relieve my boredom. However, I find myself agreeing now to banish this artificial demarcation of just where the hunting rifle begins to become a "stopper."
"Stopper" also means "cork" sometimes. So let's put a cork in it.

Any rifle of .375 H&H or greater caliber and energy will satisfy the artificial laws and the common wisdom of sufficiency for world wide use nowadays.

Therefore the 416's from Taylor on up will do, thank you. Of course it has to be wielded with the properly constructed bullet properly placed. So the man behind the gun is indeed the real corker, er, uh, stopper.

It is still fun to play with dinosaur rifles, but not really necessary.

Now, I really have to stop fooling around and get on with it.

Best Regards,

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

I am so glad Norbert has joined this discussion. Norbert has been there much more than I, I suspect. And he agrees with me! Goes to show Norbert is right. And therefore I am right. Right?

Will

If the accuracy and penetration to place a bullet in the brain were the whole story, the the .577's, .600's and the big .50 caliber magazine rifles were all for naught? I don't think so.

Surely there is something we are failing to address? I believe that something is "TRAUMA" ... the massive destruction of bone and tissue ... so great, that ones' chances of turning or stopping a charge at close quarters are enhanced ... not guaranteed, but enhanced, to a degree deemed worthwhile by some of the most experienced .. both past and present. Only by increasing caliber can this "edge" be attained.

Colloquially speaking, the term "stopper" refers to a rifle affording one better odds of survival via maximum trauma if brain or spine is NOT hit, for whatever reason.

IMHO, a .458 Lott with 500 Grain bullets represents the low end of the "stopper" classification.

And you can kill a charging buff without braining it, if you have enough time to get in enough rounds. And that ain't goin' to happen with a pea shooter.

The magical .458/500gr/2400 fps.

You guys are so easy to get stirred up! But then so am I.

Will

The reason why there are no clear cut answers to this matter is because it is an opinion - an opinion based upon some magical, non-measurable set of fuzzy variables. A position founded upon opinion and not fact, is called a hypothesis or theory. Theory must be proven in order to become fact. Ballistics and bullet performance follow the laws of Physics. Therefore one should be able to target a specific parameter in order to measure cartridges �stopping� ability.

Will - The cartridges that you have been mentioned generate around 6000 ft-lbs of energy. This seems to be the basis for a �stopper� in your mind. If you accept this, then a .416 Weatherby Magnum generates the 6000 ft-lbs mark, so does the 10.57 Meteor, and the 338/50 Talbot, .416 Rim mag is close at 5660, are these also �stoppers�?

How about if we call the .458 cal. and up "stoppers"?

That means we should call the rifle of .375 cal. up to less than .458 the "cork guns."

I couldn't resist that.

Really, I am all for resurrecting the BSI nomenclature, and this thread has played right into it.

DGR's (Dangerous Game Rifles) may be classified as:

TR : True hunting Rifle : .375 to < .458, and 100 to 199 BSI. Should have PH backup, but are more versatile due to their long range capability.

SR : Stopping Rifle : .458 and up, and 200 to 399 BSI. Walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil. Limited versatility, but better than nothing for long range use.

DR : Dinosaur Rifle : > 400 BSI, which means at least .50 cal to barely acheive this level, more easily acheived with a .585 bore and up.

Of course some might just call the DR "more than enough gun," if there can be such a thing, as with the questionable meaning of "overkill."

Or could we say that the hunter's confidence and skill or the size of his cohones is inversely proportional to the caliber of his rifle?

Or does that mean that his IQ or fitness for survival and peretuation of the species is directly or inversely proportional to the caliber of his "DGR"?

Really, there are no absolutes, and everything is relatve.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 07-20-2001).]

Just to muddy the waters further in your very first post you stated:

"Now, if you hit a charging elephant in the butt or leg with a �stopper� it ain�t gonna stop and think about what just happened..."

I always believed that an ele shot in the knee (leg) or hip (butt) was going down & was effectively immobilised as they can't run on three legs??? Is this a myth generated
by Capstick or is there any truth in it??

Pete

I do not qualify as anyone of stature, as, according to RAB, my cohones are inversely proportional to the muzzle energy of my Lott.

But 5800 ft-lbs sounds like a good starting point, as long as it is at least .458 in caliber, so we can leave out the 400 gr. 416's that generate 5800 ft-lbs at 2,556 fps!!!

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-20-2001).]

Some may ask at what energy level this effect starts, but I myself wonder whether the correct measurement is momentum, or somethging else.

What happens with humans, who are not the same, but have vaguely similar body parts, like a brain and a spine and some kind of fluid-filled cranial vault? We know that a human hit hard enough with a heavy shoulder, arm and fist, or maybe just arm & fist, padded with a boxing glove or not, can be knocked out. Have studies been done on what it takes to do this? Is an average required momentum/energy/acceleration known? Of course, what happens to an elephant shot in the head is a little different.

It would seem to me that there needs to be some sort of agreement on observable data (John shot one in the head with a .600 once and it was out four minutes, Herb shot one with a .600 once and it was out five minutes, John shot one with a .577 once and . . .) before there is going to be any basis for even talking about what is a "stopper" as opposed to something that will kill with a brain shot. It seems to me that the only posters who are properly prepared to theorise about this are those who have shot numerous animals in the wrong place with numerous different cartridges, and have tabulated their results, or the results of others.

That leaves me out, so I'll sign off.

Will,
My last post can be taken as you see fit. But now I am worried that someone will think that I am really a eunuch, for my real fondness lies with the 510/460 Weatherby, the best combination squirrel and dinosaur rifle going.

Nick,
You are getting awfully close to setting up another "Index" there. We all know we shouldn't take the numbers too seriously, right? Unless, of course, it is just a straight forward listing of real, objective data in tabular form, for the user to extract data from as needed.

Gerard Schultz Index? A straight forward listing of caliber, mass, velocity, kinetic energy, momentum, ballistic coefficient, sectional density, and bullet type/construction for a given load. GSI: no BS, just the facts, to be used as needed.

Possibly Gerard will tabulate a GSI. Such a listing would sure highlight his wonder bullets.

Of course we all know that when we are dealing with the variables of wild game, as Saeed said, it can be totally unpredictable. Humans can be the same way.

You fellows will never come to a certifiable standard for a "stopper." Many have tried in the last 100 years, and there is no answer yet.

A straight forward listing of ballistic variables for comparison in a convenient manner cannot be argued about. Maybe we shall have a GSI.

A weighted momentum value such as the BSI is adequate to compare the payload delivery capability of big bore hunting rifles.

This still leaves out the terminal ballistics, or the actual interaction of the bullet with the game animal. This is an impossibility to quantify or model. PERIOD. And I mean it this time.

But hey, this is all just in fun, right? So play ball! You too Will.
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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 07-20-2001).]

An interesting point is - almost all the British Nitro Express calibers generate approximately 5000 ft-lbs of energy. The exception was the 577 NE 3 1/4" and the 600 NE 3" which generate approximately 6000 ft-lbs. The 700 NE was developed in 1988 by Jim Bell, so it is not a true British caliber. So, if we are going to select 5800 ft-lbs as the minimum, there are only a few cartridges capable of such energy. Having shot my .450 Dakota with full house loads, I can tell you it ain�t pleasant shooting.

I think for the sake of argument that we need to refer to calibers which can generate these energy levels as �Persuaders�. After all you are persuading the animal that he really doesn�t want to stomp you into the ground. I would tend to persuade him to run after one of the trackers - that�s always good for a few chuckles around the campfire.

As we have said, the only way to stop something is to pull the plug. Almost anything that penetrates the brain can achieve this status. As Bell proved time and again, a 7 X 57 is a hell of a stopper. However, as Ruark discovered, if you can�t hit the broad side of the barn, you better use enough gun to really, really hurt what ever you are shooting at.

I don�t know about the rest of you guys, but I am taking my .416 Stopper on my hunt this year. I may even take along my .338 Influencer, but I will definitely leave my .450 Persuader at home (no ndofu on the menu).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zero Drift:
Question remains - at what energy levels does the "stopper" class begin?

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ZERO,
I didn't pose the question ... you did.
I was merely making conversation, enjoyable conversation, I thought. My mistake.

If energy meant something, a 460 weatherby would be equal to a 585 Nyati, but it isn't, and never will be.

I do find the discussions of stoppers interesting, as the big bores have become a bit of a hobby for me.

To the question at hand, I don't consider a 416 a stopper in the truest sense. The stoppers, IMHO, use brute power to hopefully right a bad situation, but they give up the shootability of the smaller bores to do so.

The 416 is at a threshold, and I personally consider it as shootable as smaller bores, when one considers hunting situations. I would be comfortable shooting a 416 in any hunting position, no, not 2 boxes of ammo, but I could go through a magazene w/o duress. I can't say the same for the 458 lott, and bigger rounds.

I fully concur w/ Nickudu's conclusion. The biggest rounds certainly won't make up for poor shooting, but they just might make the difference on a borderline shot, and when the chips are down, any extra help is worth it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
so I have taken the carnation milk approach, I punch a hole in the sob and let all the milk out....

---

Ray, where do you come up with these gems?? I love it!

Canuck

Besides our fellow man I have seen asian elephants, water buffalo, and camels killed with large caliber (12.7mm and above) weapons.

A hit to the brain or Central Nervous System (CNS)will result in instant ncapacitation. Anyhting less takes 60 seconds or so to take effect. (Liver, kidney, arteries).

Even a hear shot can take this long to take effect. Exhanguination (loss of blood pressure and conciousness) appears to be the leading cause of battlefeild deaths.

Traumatic amputation of an arm or limb will even take a minute or so to take effect. Though the head being removed from torso is always effective.

I cannot see any difference between a 416 and a .500 nitro in "stopping power."

I have seen no evidence that bulelt weight increases stopping power. Quite the opposite is true. A high velocity hit near cranium or liver will always result in explosive wound. Not true of the big bores.

Stopping power may have something to do with the confience of the shooter, who thinks his 50 caliber has more juice than a 375 or 7.62, but if you need stopping power youd better be able to hit the brain. Not the head but brain. Even spine is not a sure thing.

I know a fellow who had his arm blown off by a B40 (RPG) rocket, his buddies tied on a tourniquite, and continue firing a Stoner 63 LMG with one hand.

Some men are as determined as a wild animal.

Seriously, bullet weight has nothng to do with stopping power.

Andy

Andy now I am not going to use the phrase "stopping power" but I have hunted with both the 416 and still do hunt with a 500 N.E. 3, that I handload for a friend, and I can definatly see that 1) Animals appear to be "sicker" after shot by a 500 v the 416 and 2) The animals tend to die faster.
Just an observation

To each his own ....

Don't get discouraged. The posts to this topic are "better and better", or "weirder and weirder;" take your pick.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-21-2001).]

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I do not equate cross section to bullet weight.

Elmer assumed that the increase in killing power from a .300 to .338 was due to bullet weight. thats why he liked the 275 gr Speer. He did not realize it was the frontal area, not mass that made the difference.

A 375 Bitterroot at 2,800-3,000 fps will expand to an inch in diameter, or about .750 square inch since its round.

This will fill a five gallon bucket with congealed blood and completely destroy the hear/lung of a large bison or 6 x6 elk. If you include the mushy lungs it will fill a wash tub.

But will this "stop" an african buffalo intent on hurting you? I dont know. I do know animals can live and walk and run and even shoot you with their heart destroyed.

I think the 375 improved was effective because it damaged the brain with the heart shot. I cant explain how or why but it usually produces instantaneous kills.

Maybe you guys with big bore experience mean a 450 or 500 will turn an animal when hit, while a smaller caliber wont?

A 458 will produce a permanat woulnd cavity of about 6 1/2 cubic inches. A 500 will go 10 cubic inches. they are bound to bleed out faster using solids. this isnt stopping power though.

I personally think velocity and frontal area are the way to go. Not bullet weight, but expanded frontal area at high velocity.

Andy