I don't think you can ignore bullet weight as combined with the cross section area and to some degree the velcity, this is what governs peneration. A heavy for calibre bullet at a moderate velocity will perform far more reliably than a light for calibre bullet at a high velocity. A case in point is the old 6.5x54MS which performed far beyond its paper balistics simply because it used a heavy for calibre bullet of decent construction. Some of the old big bores had a very poor reputation because the bullets were too light and failed to penerate. In a small or medium bore this could be compensated for to some degree by increasing the velocity (bullet construction withstanding) but in a big bore this approach is not feasable, as it would increase the recoil far to much for most shooters.

I think people are trying to make a set of universal rules for this subject but there are just too many variables.

For me, as I tend to avoid the extreames in balistics, a .416, .404, or .470NE would be my choice as a stopper providing of course I could shoot it well.

Pete

Once you have sufficient bullet weight in a given caliber to provide penetration, you decrease the killing power if you decrease velocity by increasing the weight. That is why a 30 caliber w/ 250's won't kill as well as a 35 w/ 250's, only so much killing a 30 can do, and if you want more, increase both diameter and weight.

I recall reading an article by a bear guide in Alaska where he stated that he fealt the 375 H&H killed better with 270's then 300's, and he fealt that in the 40 caliber, 300's were best, and in the 458, 350's.

I appologize for my rambling equaiton of stopping power on our fellow man to stopping power with a 416 remington.

I dont really fit into this chat room, as I have more military than civilian experience. But I have killed over 500 large animals. Not hunting but butchering, which does allow you to experiment with a standard test medium.

Pete, you should try some premium bullets before making up your mind on the traditional SD. Premium bullets have been readily available in the Us since John Nosler started business in 1948, and Bill Steigers made first bonded bullets in early 1960's. they like velocity.

A 250 gr 375 Bitterroot will shoot shoulder to shoulder on 9 foot brown bear, and kill cape buffalo with one shot. how much penetration is enough???

A 335 gr 416 Bitterroot at 2,800 fps kills buffalo like a 270 kills white tail deer.

the new century (of bullet technology) started about 50 years ago.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 07-22-2001).]

When I first got involved in guns and ballistics, I had two love affairs running at the same time....375 H&H and...High velocity.

What had me beat at first was how a 300 Hornady 375 round nose gave such good results on a kangaroos or pigs as compared to the 270 with 100 and 130 grain bullets.

Then it finally clicked. Firstly, that very blunt bullet needed very little expansion to get bigger in diameter (as compared to a spitzer)and while I only had 2500 at the muzzle as compared to 3100 to 3500, I think that 375 was travelling at much higher velocity "through the animal" even though impact velocity was much lower.

Whether any of this transferrable to larger animals, I don't have a clue

Mike

I can see where you guys are coming from now.Providing I could shoot the next calibre up, I too would prefer to move up a calibre rather than try to stretch an existing "marginal" one by increasing bullet weight or velocity. In the real world though I guess many hunters can't go running out to buy a new rifle for a one off hunt. For them using heavier bullets, increasing velocity or switching to premiums is a way of squeezing the last little bit of performance from a round... a .270 or 30-06 on Elk (or should I say Eland on this forum!) springs to mind.

As to the premium bullets, I certainly agree that they are the way to go for big game but they are yet another "variable" ( a very important one) when considering overall performance.

Pete

Go figure.

How about I take the 450 gr. 416 at 2350 and let it go at that....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

The SD of a bullet in the box does not mean anything.

The SD of the expanded bullet in the animal does.

I was not suggesting shooting a 250 gr 375 at elephant.

they do work dandy on both american bison and african buffalo.

Anyone who wants an excell spread sheet on the premium 458 caliber bullets expansion, penetration, and weight retention can ask for one and I will e mail it to them.

John and Saeed, maybe there is a way to post it here?

the short course is that a 450 Barnes X (the best Barnes) had the same expansion as a 416 400 gr Swift.

Andy

What folks fail to grasp with a premium, is you increase killing power not by gaining penetration, but you do it by dropping bullet to increase the impact velocity, while retaining the same penetration, or obtaining slightly more.

For instance, I'm fully confident that my 35 whelen ackley pushing a 250 gr a-frame 2700 fps will provide better terminal performance then a 375 H&H with conventional 270's. I suppose I could drop down to 225's, but I don't have the confidence I'd get consistant exits on angling shots with moose, thats probably asking a bit much even with the 250, but I won't be lacking in performance with this ~40 year old wildcat.

I am really curious what a 570 gr X from the 500 Jeffrey will do at 2400 fps, though I can't afford to test it on anything that will really tax it. It should be outstanding on moose!

FN

As such, I selected the 450 Grain Barnes X", as it left some room for additional powder while still providing good "SD" numbers.
My final loads were in the area of 2,450 fps and it proved quite effective on buffalo.

Is this an example of the rationale Andy and Paul are projecting?? If so, I concur through my own actions but I think it could have been stated more clearly to begin with.

The answer to your original question is "Yes", but it depends on who's doing the shooting!

I go away for a couple of days, and you guys fall back into the same old rut! Buy their books and send 'em to school....

Daktari, I thought you'd have more important things on your mind by now!

Don

Stated clearly;

Drop down one or two bullet weights with a premium.

the extra velocity messes them up.

with a super premium, drop down one or two calibers.

this really messes them up!

Andy

Im getting about 2475 fps with the 450 gr Swift, Barnes and Kodiak.

this is in a 21 1/2 inch barrel from the 458 x 404 improved.

Ive been using RL-15, 4064, and VV 540.

Ill probably try Varget and WW 748 next, then a slower powder like 4350.

I like this bullet weight. The Kodiak expanded to a perfectly uniform one inch.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 07-25-2001).]

Yep, I like ole Mark just fine....a true doormat.

".....Yes, i've been privy to the Sullivan haters club on here and other forums"

I think I speak for the majority of my friends on this forum in saying that non of us hate Mark Sullivan!

What we do take exception to is his silly showmanship, where he lets a noble animal suffer unnecessarily, just to inflate his own ego.

I can guarantee you that I will have no hesitation in telling this to his face. I will also be happy to inform him that I will hang my rifle and give up hunting before hunting with a so called PH like him.

To me, a true PH will guide his client to his trophy, and let him shoot it without all this Hollywood grandstanding. A true PH will not fire more shots at the animal than his clients either.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saeed:
Jorge,

".....Yes, i've been privy to the Sullivan haters club on here and other forums"

I think I speak for the majority of my friends on this forum in saying that non of us hate Mark Sullivan!

What we do take exception to is his silly showmanship, where he lets a noble animal suffer unnecessarily, just to inflate his own ego.

I can guarantee you that I will have no hesitation in telling this to his face. I will also be happy to inform him that I will hang my rifle and give up hunting before hunting with a so called PH like him.

To me, a true PH will guide his client to his trophy, and let him shoot it without all this Hollywood grandstanding. A true PH will not fire more shots at the animal than his clients either.

---

EXCACTLY!

Regards,
Canuck