There is a thread on this board about problems with a hunt in Zimbabwe, and it has generated some heated charges: back and forth about the motivations and good faith of the parties involved. I'd like to make a couple of random observations about the state of affairs in the safari business and human nature.

I just got back from France and while there went to one of the many out door "country" markets. We bought a medium sized roasted chicken, almost a kilo of cheese, and two tomatoes. The first two vendors gave me what I bargained for at the stated price. The third gave me two small tomatoes from a bin marked 1.90Euro/kilo, weighed them and announced the price was 2.54Euro. Before I could intervene, my wife held out her money and it was taken.

For those of you unaccustom to metrics, a kilo is 2.2 pounds and these tomatoes together might have weighed 6 ounces. We paid about four times the asking price. I knew I'd been fleeced as I walked away, but did not stop and confront the vendor. However, the more I thought about it, the more it irritated me. Still does, obviously; although I paid probably as high a premium for the chicken and for the cheese.

I wasn't angry about those purchases because I paid the advertised price and got the product in the quality and quantity I'd bargained for. The vendors were all at the same fair within a block of one another. Two were high priced but open about it and the other was dishonest.

I found in 67 years of living that this condition pretty well sums up the human condition: some people are honest in their business dealings, some are not. Further, most of us will suffer high prices for what we want or need, but we don't like, in fact, we resent being fleeced. If a deal sounds too good to be true, it probably is (don't buy any Rolexes at the country market.)

The safari business is just like that country fair. There are some people that offer more than fair value, some that are spot on, and some that want to squeeze the clients for every cent they can get by any means they can.

In today's world, few persons are going to come out and say point blank that old Joe or Pete is a scoundrel of the first water and you'd better stay away from him. It behooves those of you who read hunt reports on AR to read between the lines when the client talks about the experience.

Many very good reputable providers are less than open about the nature of their operation not because they are dishonest, but because it would spoil the clients enjoyment of the experience to know that the animals they are shooting are so called "put and take." However, if you think about it, even large operators have to replenish their stock of males animals just as they must cull the females.

Many outfitters use their contacts to gain access to animals that they do not have on their concession or ranch. This is in the interest of the client; however, this introduces an unknown into the equation which can become a problem. Some concession holder over book, and some agents over sell hunts. (Your contract states that x, y and z species are available and their on your license, but z isn't to be found and hasn't been seen there in years.)

Right now the prices in Zimbabwe are good because the situation there is not good. It is a great place to go and hunt non-trophy elephant. To hunt trophy species in a country which is near financial, social and political collapse is a crap shoot. I can think of many reasons that could delay or prevent the delivery of the client's trophies. That is part of the risk of accepting the lower priced product.

In those countries where much of the hunting is on government owned concessions, the operators and the clients are always at the mercy of the government which can increase fees, take away concessions, permit intrusion by local tribal people into the concession. All these things can create "issues" particularly when you are booking a year of two out.

The only way to avoid this is to own the land, and this means you must fence your animals in, which means you fence other animals out. Many people don't want to hunt behind wire. That is OK, but remember the provider can control the situation much better on his land. If you elect to hunt on a concession, you accept the other risks outlined above.

In the end, your only protection is to look around for a person who has a proven record, the longer the better, of delivering what they promised. What is in your contract is all you are entitled to. I can tell you that there are no uniform standards or customs in the trade to fall back upon. Check out recent clients and listen to what they say and what they don't say. Ask questions about the things that cause concern. References that are recent and have several hunts under their belts are better than those who are telling you about their first trip.

Outfitting and being an agent is a tough business and I believe that it will get harder as the business climate becomes more uncertain. Things also are tough in Europe according to the reports on their TV and comments I heard from folks in the travel industry.

I did not mean to preach, but many people come to AR for information on African hunting and you will see every time those in the business put forth their offers, which is OK-I am not knocking or criticizing that-but there are not many who have experience and who aren't in the business who can or who are willing to tell newbies to take the blinders off, realize that this isn't a country pond but an ocean where there can be bad weather and barracudas, not to mention the occasional great white shark.

If you do it enough, you will get bitten. Hopefully, you will not be out a great deal of money, but eventually you will "be surprised." Remember, just like here, the squeaky wheel gets greased. Follow up, Follow up, Follow up. Don't suffer in silence. Get on the horn to your outfitter from the bush. Let your ph know what you are unhappy about. He is there to make it a satisfactory and successful experience for you.

Lastly, remember that you are also part of the equation. You must be able to hit a soft ball at fifty yards consistently from a standing, supported position, and a soccer ball sized target at 100 yards. You should be able to walk a round of golf. Ask what to bring, and bring it. (Don't bring too much stuff.) You must be ready to get up with the sun and be able to hold your booze if you drink. You must be mentally prepared for some culture shock the first couple of trips into new countries. You must let you agent and ph know what your priorities and criteria are. And you must be realistic. If you want a 60inch kudu and nothing else will do, then go for it, but don't be surprised if you are not successful on your first or second attempt. Be nice, expect good things, and be up front about your needs and wants.

I apologize for the length of this. If I have stepped upon any outfitters' or agents' toes, I apologize; this is not directed at any outfitter or agent involved in the mentioned controversy. I hope that this might be of some help to lurkers, and will be an encouragement to others like me who have been around the block and who are not in the business to speak up on issues.

To those in the industry, I think you might want to consider a Code of Conduct (trade standards) that members of the various associations are expected to adhere to. I about dropped my teeth when I heard that their were no standards of conduct in PHASA. Kudude

kudude,

Thanks for eloquently saying what I wished I could say, but just know is quite beyong my command of written English.

I have little of any real substance to add, except to further elaborate and give examples. Thanks in particular for pointing out the fact, if not the exact magnitude, of "put-'n-take" operations.

The only thing that I want to point out is that clients going in for a few $ K deal should learn to accurately say what they want with respect to trophy size and hunting experience. On a recent other post some poster said that he would shoot a smaller buffalo at 8 yards in preference to passing up a monster at 80 yards. That guy can accurately convey what sort of hunting experience he wants or hopes to get. To just say a 55" kudu is the minimum is also not nearly enough: The trophy is not about the length of horns only - it is about the age and wear and tear of life as the mature "representative" grew old, and so became a trophy.

I can go on and on, but will stop here and allow others to put forth their views.

In good hunting and with thanks to kudude for a balanced and remarkably accurate assessment of the situation.

Andrew McLaren.

Thanks for your kind words. I hope people will read what I have said (spelling errors and all), and take it to heart. I am thinking about that "Code of Conduct," and what should be in it as a minimum. I'll put it up soon. I hope that it will generate some discussion and more suggestions. Kudude

Kudude,
A fine example of what this forum is all about!

Well said....

Bob

I couldn't agree more Kudude, in any service business, I don't care what kind, plumbers, carpenters, taxidermists, booking agents, lawn mowers or whatever. There's going to be a wide range of quality and price. It will range from Excellent to horrible, and sometimes even the ones who are excellent are going to make mistakes. There's no absolute 100% guarantee in anything we do in life.

Very well said!

Hi Kudude

Very well put, but as to PHASA not having a code of conduct this is what I found on their web site

"Code of Conduct:

We hunters will conduct ourselves professionally in a manner which will reflect honesty, integrity and morality. In the spirit of fair chase the principle of sustainable utilization of our natural resources will be adhered to, and we also pledge ourselves to:

Obey all laws of the land
Will not misrepresent ourselves to clients in any way or mislead any client
Will not allow material gain to supercede principles of fair chase
Will not hunt any wild animal which is not normally self-sustainable nor in its natural state
Will at all times employ humane hunting practices
Will not hunt female wild animals with dependent offspring
Will not allow a client to shoot at animals at a distance beyond the capability of their competence or that client’s equipment
Will respect local communities’ property and input

It might still be a bit light, but remember that this is a voluntary association and that this code cannot (and should not) be enforced by statute in the law of the land.

I am not a PH or a member of PHASA but the few I know I do trust will try to honour this code. The few who don't try, because of the newsworthyness of their shenanigans, form the "majority" of these topical posts on forums such as AR, leading to the perception that they are the rule rather than the exception.

Well said Kudude, and well said the post by Stephen Palos, as well!

Gentlemen this is the way things should be handled on AR, or any other forum. I find the kangaroo courts to be counter productive, and very distasteful, and IMO, serve no purpose in settleing disagreements.

As Kudude says, if you participate long enough in the hunting world, you will sooner or later get burned. Sometimes it is intentional, and somtimes beyond the control of you, or the safari co. Anyone who things everything is always going to run silky smooth on safari,especially in a country where there is fiscal strife,and a goverment that is prone to move as it wants, is IMO, a little naive!

There is also the not so small consideration of hunters who overextend themselves financially to book a hunt. I think that many of us do this from time to time in order to fulfill our dreams/goals but it can put a lot of pressure onto a situation. The client that is being referred to spent 50% of his annual income on 1 hunt. That's a lot of pressure for everything to turn out 100%.

Great post Kudude!!

quote:

Lastly, remember that you are also part of the equation. You must be able to hit a soft ball at fifty yards consistently from a standing, supported position, and a soccer ball sized target at 100 yards. You should be able to walk a round of golf. Ask what to bring, and bring it. (Don't bring too much stuff.) You must be ready to get up with the sun and be able to hold your booze if you drink. You must be mentally prepared for some culture shock the first couple of trips into new countries. You must let you agent and ph know what your priorities and criteria are. And you must be realistic. If you want a 60inch kudu and nothing else will do, then go for it, but don't be surprised if you are not successful on your first or second attempt. Be nice, expect good things, and be up front about your needs and wants.

I think the above portion should serve as a code of conduct for clients.

When I was in Zim last year I wanted a 40" sable. I passed on two that my PH estimated at 38" and went home without a sable, but I had a great hunt and the next time I go back I will still be happily chasing that 40" sable.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
There is also the not so small consideration of hunters who overextend themselves financially to book a hunt. I think that many of us do this from time to time in order to fulfill our dreams/goals but it can put a lot of pressure onto a situation. The client that is being referred to spent 50% of his annual income on 1 hunt. That's a lot of pressure for everything to turn out 100%.

I don't think the client's annual income is all that relevant in that thread. If you shoot a nice elephant, regardless of your income, I think it is more than reasonable to expect your trophy to be delivered SOONER than 22 months and counting after the hunt. The client apparently did EVERYTHING he was supposed to do, so how does his income affect his wanting his trophy?

I don't disagree with you on the money...just pointing out that pressure is there.

I could ask you how "doing everything you are supposed to do" has any guarantee as to outcome in Africa??? The recently discussed issue is a good case in point. The agent also did everything he could do and continues to do so long after the client quit communicating with him. So, I would say, no, the client did NOT do everything they were supposed to do since they ignored the comm's from their agent.

It doesn't really matter what any of us think. The agent is doing his job, communicating with all parties and doing everything he can to get these trophies back after a paperwork mistake in Africa (GASP...paperwork error in Africa?!?).

Let's talk about something else...like crazy guys shooting Saeed's T-Rex 3 times in a row.

Gordo,

I don't think that was Yukon's point, just an example. I've sort of been dealing with the same issue for myself. The hunt I wanted to do wasn't nearly half my annual income, but was significan. The IRS dealt me a blow that I simply wasn't prepard for last month, so that made my decision easier. Instead of doing a buff/pg hunt for my first safari, I'm going to do a pg hunt for about half the price. It just make the whole thing a lot easier to prepare for and takes a lot of the pressure off in the preparations/money-saving portion of the fun. I won't feel any better if my trophies are delayed, but I also understand that "this is Africa" and shit does happen on a regular basis. I'm not defending anyone here, but know of others who have waited what seems to be a really long time for their trophies. IMO it's just part of dealing with an African safari. Like it or not shit happens, regardless of who the agent or outfitter happens to be.

Kudude, well said. I've done a lot of research preparing to make my first safari and have found that what you've said above it all truly accurate.

David Walker

Since YD beat me to replying, I concur, next topic please.

DW

Well said Kudude. This should be a pinned post.
LDK

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
I don't disagree with you on the money...just pointing out that pressure is there.

I could ask you how "doing everything you are supposed to do" has any guarantee as to outcome in Africa??? The recently discussed issue is a good case in point. The agent also did everything he could do and continues to do so long after the client quit communicating with him. So, I would say, no, the client did NOT do everything they were supposed to do since they ignored the comm's from their agent.

It doesn't really matter what any of us think. The agent is doing his job, communicating with all parties and doing everything he can to get these trophies back after a paperwork mistake in Africa (GASP...paperwork error in Africa?!?).

Let's talk about something else...like crazy guys shooting Saeed's T-Rex 3 times in a row.

Yukon Delta:

I'm not going to reproduce what the client said, who is being remarkably quiet, apparently still hoping for a successful resolution of his trophy dilemma, but it is highly debateable in my mind that the agent did his job as well as you seem to think he did. Indeed, the client says nothing was happening until he contacted Don Causey in desperation and it is apparently not one paperwork mistake but a series of errors, whether by ommission or otherwise. Finally, I note that the original post by Wendell has been modified where he said that the client had been notified in writing of the offer of a free hunt replacement. The client says he has not received such an offer in writing. Obviously someone is fibbing. Perhaps, since you seem to be an apologist for the agent you can clear this up?

No, I won't speak further on it except to refer you to several postings I have already made here and on the other thread.

I read your replies and that is why I chose the word "apologist" carefully. Just like another poster said, I suggest you re-read WLAs post, since your take on it is nearly the complete opposite of how I read it. Finally, I haven't seen anyone, including you, clear up the "in writing" question.

Thanks guys, you have taken another thread and thrown it in the toilet with your stupid pissing match.

................BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
There is a thread on this board about problems with a hunt in Zimbabwe, and it has generated some heated charges: back and forth about the motivations and good faith of the parties involved. I'd like to make a couple of random observations about the state of affairs in the safari business and human nature.

I just got back from France and while there went to one of the many out door "country" markets. We bought a medium sized roasted chicken, almost a kilo of cheese, and two tomatoes. The first two vendors gave me what I bargained for at the stated price. The third gave me two small tomatoes from a bin marked 1.90Euro/kilo, weighed them and announced the price was 2.54Euro. Before I could intervene, my wife held out her money and it was taken.

I don't have anything to add about the African hunting, but please do swing by Rambouillet next time you are in France. I have some free of charge, no chance of being swindled, wine that's waiting for visiting AR members. It'll help take the sting out of being swindled.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:

I don't have anything to add about the African hunting, but please do swing by Rambouillet next time you are in France. I have some free of charge, no chance of being swindled, wine that's waiting for visiting AR members.

I never even got to France to watch SA take the world cup, but now I REALLY have a reason to get there

Sorry Wink, where ARE my manners....

You are also welcome, when passing through the West Rand OF Gauteng, South Africa, to enjoy a couple of bots of SA's finest reds with me. Trust me, they are good-our wines have their origins in French Hugenot settlers...

quote:

Originally posted by David Culpepper:
Thanks guys, you have taken another thread and thrown it in the toilet with your stupid pissing match.

Culpepper:

I note in another thread that you have received your trophy shipment from South Africa, why don't you put yourself in the client's position, where he has REPEATEDLY been promised his trophies for well over a year with no result and then you tell me it is a stupid pissing match? Until then, I'll say what I think is right, you can call it stupid, or you can call it a pissing match and I don't give a damn. Finally, apparently you don't have the ability to not click on a thread that apparently offends your delicate sensitivities, try harder.

Disputes should be settled by the individuals, and not on the internet where neither party is under oath and an outright lie is acceptable...and if it cannot be settled by two individuals then take it to court where the trail will be fair, not based on someones likes and dislikes towards each other and emotions that run berserk!!

quote:

If you do it enough, you will get bitten........................................................................You must be ready to get up with the sun and be able to hold your booze if you drink.

A lot of good stuff here but these two are the best.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Disputes should be settled by the individuals, and not on the internet where neither party is under oath and an outright lie is acceptable...and if it cannot be settled by two individuals then take it to court where the trail will be fair, not based on someones likes and dislikes towards each other and emotions that run berserk!!

Amen and very well said!! the original topic of this post seemed to disappear about midway through it. the gentleman from Texas started the pissing contest and the gentleman from Alaska tried to deflect it, with no success. that is too bad because Kududude's original post was one of the most erudite and reasonable discussions on this subject that i have ever read.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Disputes should be settled by the individuals, and not on the internet where neither party is under oath and an outright lie is acceptable...and if it cannot be settled by two individuals then take it to court where the trail will be fair, not based on someones likes and dislikes towards each other and emotions that run berserk!!

Amen and very well said!! the original topic of this post seemed to disappear about midway through it. the gentleman from Texas started the pissing contest and the gentleman from Alaska tried to deflect it, with no success. that is too bad because Kududude's original post was one of the most erudite and reasonable discussions on this subject that i have ever read.

Jdollar:

Would you like to bet who mentioned the "client" first? It would be better if you read the thread before displaying your ignorance.

quote:

then take it to court where the trail will be fair,

HUH? Just how would WLA take the Safari company to court where the trial will be fair? Sorry Ray, I just think this is BS. Why not use the court of public opinion which in some cases is far more effective because it hits them where it hurts. Why should I, the offended party, have to spend my hard earned money to recover my own hard earned money, remembering that all I get is a judgement, not recovery!
I am also not going to join the fan club for Kudude's original post. The issue is not that there are bad apples, that is no news flash. The issue is "how can I avoid them" and "what can I do if I do wind up on the short end of the stick". I'm sorry, but the advice of not buying a Rolex at a county fair doesn't really help me much. Perhaps the agents on this board can give us all good advice on this. Ray I'm sure you will NOT tell us to "get it in writing" as you have always maintained that a gentlemen's agreement is sufficient. So, "How do I tell a gentleman?". I hope the answer is not something like "Well, if I have to explain it then I'm wasting my time". Sorry, Ray, you DO have to explain it.
Peter.

I appreciate greatly the kudos of so many of my colleagues. I have been working on what I hope will be some positive suggestions. Kudude

Kudude, I for one would greatly appreciate that!
Peter