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Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I don't need to wonder. SCI/DSC/HSC etc, as clubs, appeal to a relatively small number of hunters because the primary activity of their members is international trophy hunting. They each have big five animals on their logos for a reason.

I hope NRA do pick up the reins for all hunters. they are in a better position to do so.

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Originally posted by Skyline:

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Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I don't need to wonder. SCI/DSC/HSC etc, as clubs, appeal to a relatively small number of hunters because the primary activity of their members is international trophy hunting. They each have big five animals on their logos for a reason.

I hope NRA do pick up the reins for all hunters. they are in a better position to do so.

Yes........... and when the Baby Boomers are out of the market these clubs/associations are toast. And they know it. It is a big concern for them. Just check out the age demographics for all hunting clubs and associations. Hell, check out the age demographics for those people using big game outfitters and fishing lodges.

There are not a lot of young people coming in on the bottom end. There are a few spending the coin, but not many. When I look at most of the younger hunters I see in camp, the majority of time Daddy or Grandpa is footing the bill. I have also noticed that when Daddy or Grandpa quits taking them or passes away, the younger hunters quit going on international and/or outfitted hunts.

Everyone seems to really be in denial about this and it should be a big concern.

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Originally posted by Gayne C. Young:
So I get that we all agree something has to be done by the major wildlife groups but that nothing will probably get done.
Sad.
I just returned from peacock fishing with Capt Peacock in the Amazon. On board were several DSC / SCI life members and two SCI Chapter presidents. The conversation at one point went to Cecil the lion and all of these men agreed that the biggest mistake was that the dentist shared his hunting pics on Facebook. I said I disagreed completely. I said we need MORE hunters sharing their trophy pics on social media. More hunters sharing what they bring to the conservation table. More discussion online about who we are and how we believe in what we're doing.
Most disagreed with me saying it's better to go under the radar.
Folks, under the radar is heading for a crash!

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You just crystalized what Saeed has been saying for years on this website - SCI has their collective heads in the sand....

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Originally posted by Matt Graham:

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Originally posted by Skyline:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I don't need to wonder. SCI/DSC/HSC etc, as clubs, appeal to a relatively small number of hunters because the primary activity of their members is international trophy hunting. They each have big five animals on their logos for a reason.

I hope NRA do pick up the reins for all hunters. they are in a better position to do so.

Yes........... and when the Baby Boomers are out of the market these clubs/associations are toast. And they know it. It is a big concern for them. Just check out the age demographics for all hunting clubs and associations. Hell, check out the age demographics for those people using big game outfitters and fishing lodges.

There are not a lot of young people coming in on the bottom end. There are a few spending the coin, but not many. When I look at most of the younger hunters I see in camp, the majority of time Daddy or Grandpa is footing the bill. I have also noticed that when Daddy or Grandpa quits taking them or passes away, the younger hunters quit going on international and/or outfitted hunts.

Everyone seems to really be in denial about this and it should be a big concern.

Hunter numbers are falling in some places - but not where I live, quite the opposite in fact. Economic prosperity has something to do with that but not all. Falling hunter numbers overall can be a big problem.

As for those hunters spending coin on big game hunts as we know them, trophy hunts interstate and international. Are there less people doing those hunts now than say 20-30 years ago? I dont know? I think the demographic will always be slanted toward older people who are more established. Younger hunters will kick in when they have the financial means.

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Originally posted by Skyline:
Yes........... and when the Baby Boomers are out of the market these clubs/associations are toast. And they know it. It is a big concern for them. Just check out the age demographics for all hunting clubs and associations. Hell, check out the age demographics for those people using big game outfitters and fishing lodges.

There are not a lot of young people coming in on the bottom end. There are a few spending the coin, but not many. When I look at most of the younger hunters I see in camp, the majority of time Daddy or Grandpa is footing the bill. I have also noticed that when Daddy or Grandpa quits taking them or passes away, the younger hunters quit going on international and/or outfitted hunts.

Everyone seems to really be in denial about this and it should be a big concern.

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What I have noticed is an age gap.

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Originally posted by Gayne C. Young:
Awesome thing was that our readers were 47% female.

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That's cuz you're a chick magnet Gayne. Big Grin

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It seems the people I know who are interested in hunting (but do not yet) have ZERO interest in antler size, books, circles, scores etc. They seem to be interested in it for the experience, the challenge, and the good food. In my opinion, this is bad for SCI, but good for hunting. SCI NEEDS hunting to exist, hunting does not NEED SCI to exist. It's a matter of how you see the activity of hunting that determines which side of that question you are on. I'd rather have 100 ethical, ecologically aware hunters, than 100 hunters seeking the purple diamond belt buckle award. But that's just me.

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Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I am sitting in the Second day of NRA's Hunters Leadership Forum. For the first time in a long time I see a glimmer of hope. They are ramping up a multiprong attack and seem to be damn serious about hunters rights.

So here's to a better future. We have a long fight ahead of us and we are 10 years behind in the war.

Jeff

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Originally posted by MJines:
My primary reason for coming to Washington to attend the NRA Hunters' Leadership Forum was to assess the level of commitment that the NRA had to making hunting issues a priority. Is this something the NRA is behind and committed to pursuing in the usual NRA fashion or was the NRA making a token commitment to appease it's hunting members? I think they are clearly committed to taking a leadership role on the communications and cultural challenges facing hunting. All of the senior NRA leadership participated in the meeting including LaPierre and Cox. The President of the NRA along with the First and Second Vice Presidents participated as well. While I think some of us were disappointed at the lack of specifics regarding the NRA's action plan at this point, I think that the NRA is committed to being in a position to roll out a plan in the next sixty days or so. I was also encouraged that I did not sense any resistance or reluctance on the part of SCI to support to effort. Everyone acknowledges that with 5 million members and a strong history of communications and advocacy leadership, the NRA is really the right group, in fact the only group with the capability, to do this. All in all, my assessment is the commitment is there, the wherewithal is clearly there, now it is time to see progress on the implementation end. This latter piece was something that LaPierre personally committed to make happen.

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Originally posted by AilsaWheels:
Thanks for the update on the NRA meeting Larry, Mike and Jeff.

Do you get the idea that the NRA will be supporting trophy hunting/foreign hunting or will it be more a push to support meat hunters in North America?

Thanks

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Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

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Originally posted by AilsaWheels:
Thanks for the update on the NRA meeting Larry, Mike and Jeff.

Do you get the idea that the NRA will be supporting trophy hunting/foreign hunting or will it be more a push to support meat hunters in North America?

Thanks

The NRA is committed to educating all and serving every hunter from the rabbit hunter to the elephant hunter.

Jeff

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Originally posted by larryshores:
The meeting was informative and at times, scary .

There was some analysis of the antis tactics. When one realizes that some of these tactics are very similar to tried and true military tactics, it is frightening. The opposition is quite clever and organized. We had all better wake up and stop whining about SCI and/or some other group. The division amongst us is playing right into the antis hands.

Some of the analysis of reactions and/or opinions about hunting by the general public was also eye opening. When questioned about opinions of trophy hunting, support/positive opinion falls drastically. On the other hand, support/positive opinion regarding hunting for food is quite high.

I have said for a long time that we are under attack. Until this meeting, I had no idea just how bad it is .

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Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

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Originally posted by larryshores:
The meeting was informative and at times, scary .

There was some analysis of the antis tactics. When one realizes that some of these tactics are very similar to tried and true military tactics, it is frightening. The opposition is quite clever and organized. We had all better wake up and stop whining about SCI and/or some other group. The division amongst us is playing right into the antis hands.

Some of the analysis of reactions and/or opinions about hunting by the general public was also eye opening. When questioned about opinions of trophy hunting, support/positive opinion falls drastically. On the other hand, support/positive opinion regarding hunting for food is quite high.

I have said for a long time that we are under attack. Until this meeting, I had no idea just how bad it is .

All that Mr. Shores says is quite true. The enemy however is not bound by morals, ethics or the truth. Lies, deceit and emotion are their best weapons. They use puppies and kitties to stuff their coffers. They bait and switch and are very patient. They take the low hanging fruit. But their goal is to end all hunting. Every time they file a frivolous lawsuit it taxes our limited resources to fight them.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
The meeting was informative and at times, scary .

There was some analysis of the antis tactics. When one realizes that some of these tactics are very similar to tried and true military tactics, it is frightening. The opposition is quite clever and organized. We had all better wake up and stop whining about SCI and/or some other group. The division amongst us is playing right into the antis hands.

Some of the analysis of reactions and/or opinions about hunting by the general public was also eye opening. When questioned about opinions of trophy hunting, support/positive opinion falls drastically. On the other hand, support/positive opinion regarding hunting for food is quite high.

I have said for a long time that we are under attack. Until this meeting, I had no idea just how bad it is .

All that Mr. Shores says is quite true. The enemy however is not bound by morals, ethics or the truth. Lies, deceit and emotion are their best weapons. They use puppies and kitties to stuff their coffers. They bait and switch and are very patient. They take the low hanging fruit. But their goal is to end all hunting. Every time they file a frivolous lawsuit it taxes our limited resources to fight them.

Jeff

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Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
The meeting was informative and at times, scary .

There was some analysis of the antis tactics. When one realizes that some of these tactics are very similar to tried and true military tactics, it is frightening. The opposition is quite clever and organized. We had all better wake up and stop whining about SCI and/or some other group. The division amongst us is playing right into the antis hands.

Some of the analysis of reactions and/or opinions about hunting by the general public was also eye opening. When questioned about opinions of trophy hunting, support/positive opinion falls drastically. On the other hand, support/positive opinion regarding hunting for food is quite high.

I have said for a long time that we are under attack. Until this meeting, I had no idea just how bad it is .

All that Mr. Shores says is quite true. The enemy however is not bound by morals, ethics or the truth. Lies, deceit and emotion are their best weapons. They use puppies and kitties to stuff their coffers. They bait and switch and are very patient. They take the low hanging fruit. But their goal is to end all hunting. Every time they file a frivolous lawsuit it taxes our limited resources to fight them.

Jeff

But fight them we must!

When Aaron and I were engaging with the LCTF, all of this was quite apparent then.

We tried to walk the fine between encouraging us to police our own while waging war against the antis. In some ways we were quite successful and in others not so much. Over time though...most all hunters warmed up to embracing science based lion conservation through hunting.

I write this for 2 reasons: 1) to illustrate that the battle is tedious and at times like watching grass grow...and 2) like MJines has been preaching as of late...while battling the antis...we must always make sure we hold ourselves to the utmost of standards.

The best way to put it are in the immortal words of David Crockett: "Be sure you are right...then go ahead!"

to the NRA

quote:

Some of the analysis of reactions and/or opinions about hunting by the general public was also eye opening. When questioned about opinions of trophy hunting, support/positive opinion falls drastically. On the other hand, support/positive opinion regarding hunting for food is quite high.

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Originally posted by BaxterB:

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Some of the analysis of reactions and/or opinions about hunting by the general public was also eye opening. When questioned about opinions of trophy hunting, support/positive opinion falls drastically. On the other hand, support/positive opinion regarding hunting for food is quite high.

Not that I recall. Remember this was not to discuss the merits of hunting. it was discuss a strategy to preserve hunting.

If you are shocked that many people do not approve of trophy hunting but do meat hunting you haven't been paying attention. Think about how that question would be asked, "Do you approve/disapprove of hunting animals as a trophy? Do you approve/disapprove of hunting animals for food? One has a more/positive ethical aspect to it (hunting for food), while the other seems merely exploitative.

Of course there is a lot more to know in order to approve of hunting for a trophy, that being the complex conservation aspect of it, but approve/disapprove questions never get into the esoteric nature of these things - it's not how you drive an agenda - see WA I-1401 for an example, "Do you want to help save animals from extinction?" Who would say 'no' to that other than those who already know the laws on the books or the facts about what the initiative states? And that number in this case was very small.

For those who attended the NRA meeting, did anyone bring up how hunting fits into the larger wildlife conservation model in the US, and the fact that if it were not for the funds generated by sportsmen our wildlife would be a pitiful mess? And did anyone in the meeting use the word 'fishing?' Hunting and fishing are the opposite side of the same coin. IN my opinion all of these organizations should be working together. Might seem that its redundant given that so many hunters fish and so many fishers hunt, but the fact that we have separate organizations working independently on issues is an opportunity (I think) to have a coalition of sorts among all outdoor sporting endeavors at a higher level.

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Remember this was not to discuss the merits of hunting. it was discuss a strategy to preserve hunting.

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So yes, the connection of hunting to wildlife conservation was a significant topic.