Mac,

Lets agree that we disagree on many points but allow me to keep the record straight.

The hunter first two shots "both passed behind the hart" and not above as you implied. In addition it is not credible that a person that has invested 70.000 US$ for a double rifle will not bother to learn were the vitals of a buffalo are placed.

Clients tend to shoot high on long shots because they istictively tend to aim closer to the centre of the mass.

The further is the target the higher they shoot. As I'm not immune, all my bush rifles are sighted at 50 yards and I like curved trajectories because are compensating my shooting error.

Regarding the popularity of moderate calibers in Africa the ammunition was cheap because the calibers were popular and not the other way around.

To build a magnum or a standard caliber costs more or less the same and so to produce the ammunitions. If in South Africa the 30 06 is more popular than a 375 H&H it is only because it is a better "all purpose" caliber and not because it is cheaper.

I do agree that most of PHs would like to have a double, as most people would like to own a Ferrari. It is a very unpractical car but undoubtely a very strong status symbol.

I own a 270, a 7mm RM, a 308, a 9.3x62 and a 458 Lott.

In this area I hunt with a 9.3 and I consider myself adequately protected from lions, buffalos and elephants, but when guiding I carry the 458 because my clients will feel not secure with a lesser caliber. Have you got my point?

I will never choose a double for hunting, if a bolt action of the same caliber is available.

The only time that a double can have some advantage on a bolt action is when following any wounded animal in thick cover.

And in this case it is better to have a gun that is short and fast in to action, with a very short recovery time between shots.

I'm not a very fast shooter with a bolt action but I can still place two aimed shots with the 9.3 faster than the average person with a big S/S double because the shorter recovery time required to realign the sights correctly.

Lets not forget that to stop a charge with certainty you need to reach the brain or the spine. If you reach them with a 9.3 or a 470 will not make any difference but if you reach them with the 9.3 and miss with the 470 the difference is great!

If you need to reload it will be definitively easier to shoot 4 aimed shots with a medium caliber bolt rifle than with a big bore double.

In any case, if a charge it is not stopped with the first or second shot the possibility of a fast reload will not generally make any difference.

I like S/Ss. They represent the tradition of African DG hunting and are fun to shoot. But for practicality they are basically obsolete.

How many clay pidgeon shooter use now a S/S? If the recovery time between shots was the same why all shooters have moved to O/U?

Regarding the accuracy at short range a large bore S/S will shoot at point blank about 1/2" to the side and the O/U straight on target. When aiming for a brain or spine shot at a charging lion or buffalo it can make a big difference.

So, if you like to hunt with a big S/S double, enjoy it but do not think to be better equipped than the guy shooting a moderate but more manageable caliber.

If you come to Phalaborwa you are very welcome for some home made pasta and a good session at the local shooting range. I think we can have fun togheter!

All



Will,

You're a crotchity old bastard. Did you know that or is this the first you've heard it?(Smile it's compliment)



Butch told me that 500grs was going to post it on this sight. I just now got here.



This is my story and it happened excatley the way I wrote it. I posted it on THR and then sent a copy to Butch last thursday.



Saeed,



Lances (the PH) first shot was aimed at the bulls head but as I noted his round deflected in the brush and if you look at the picture you can see out towards the end of his ear is a perfect outline of a .470 500gr barnes soild the bullet was straight up obviously tumbling. It them proceeded to burn up the side of his neck as is evident from the long red scrape in the picture. That set this very sick bull into motion.



After that hitting the head was, How shall I say, somewhat troublesome... The bull was coming from behind a thick screen of brush. It all happened very quckly and it was a spine shot or notthing when I finally got a clear sight picture as the head was moving up and down very violently. If you ever get the chance to see an extremly pissed off buffalo at close range coming at you, you may well find out that simply shooting him in the head is not always possible.



Andrea,

As far a the caliber thing, hey if you want to use a .375 go for it. I am speaking of the configuration not the caliber in this event. I don't however get your take on the O/U vs SXS thing the only real difference is that the O/U takes a much wider radius to swing open and is slower to reload but that's not a huge factor.Do you really find a standard loaded .470 that viloent to shoot. I don't. This rifle is extemely accurate and comfortable to shoot and ALL of my shots went precisley where I was aiming. This buffalo was hit hard and didn't go more than 50 yards from the first shot to where we had our spot of bother. Also known as pretty much incapacitated.But in some hellishly thick nasty Jesse. Sometimes these old dagas are just tough.I had a bull three years ago get damn near bullet proof after taking a .458 Lott 500 gr solid through both lungs. He didn't charge but he did soak up some weight in bullets before he went to the happy hunting grounds. He was alive after 20 mintues as well. That is not horribly uncommon for a lung shot buffalo.I've had another drop dead to nearly the same shot placement.



Looking back on the whole episode the only thing that I could have done different was given the angle I could have placed the bullet about 6" further forward which would have gotten some shoulder bone and possibly the heart. Niether of my shots were high they went behind the heart a little to far back. I know exactley where the heart is on a buffalo.







It's also not the first big game I've killed with my Searcy.







Gregory T Allyn

(H&Hhunter on THR)



I won't be here tommorrow or for the next ten days, hunting season you know.....So let the flame continue to burn in my absence. Or is it the flaming....

Gregory,

As my old flight instructor said, "if you have to have a crash, just make sure you walk away from it".

And I am sure glad you and Lance walked away from that buffalo charge.

You know, I am glad we have the luxury of sitting here in the comfort of our own homes, debating what should and should not have been done.

But, when one is dealing with buffalo, the best plans can go awry.

There have been numerous times when my bullet have been deflected by small twig; and I have shot through an 8" mopane tree and killed a warthog behind it.

Saeed,

Thank you for your reply.

I'd just like to add that despite an opinon expressed earlier. Lance did not "screw up" he had an unexpected and unfortunate accident happen on his first shot which caused his bullet to deflect. He then very calmly placed his second shot right next to mine. You all need to understand the extremely limited visibiltiy we were dealing with before you go and holler "poor shot placement" we were doing the best we could..

while I was the one who dumped the bull Lance was reloaded and on the spot as soon as my second shot went off. He was cool, calm and professional through the whole event. I will hunt with Lance again in the near future. A man who holds his ground is a man worth his salt.

I wish I had this episode on camera as it happened so fast it's not possible for me to describe it..he was up, bang, bang, bang he was down. It happend that fast.

As far as using differeent equipment. Use what you're comfortable with. But a scoped bolt would have been usless in this scenario..At least for the last part of it..

The caliber thing was also not an issue, wether I was using a .375 or .600NE my rounds went just where I put them. Accademic at best..

Saeed,

Do you still fly?

I have not flown any planes for about 15 years now.

Not many places to fly to here, being such a small country.

I also flew helicopters for a while, and that also came to a stop after the first gulf war.

Don't pay too much attention to some of the criticism you might get on this forum - in fact, I suggest you take it as a compliment, depending on who is criticising you.

I take it that way myself

Yesterday we had a visitor here who has never been to Africa, and wanted to watch some of our hunting videos.

Walter played host for him. He was very impressed with my shooting on the videos, so Walter had to correct his "misconceptions".

He told him "we edit all Saeed's misses out - which is about 9 out of 10. Otherwise you would have to watch a video for 24 hours continuously before you even see ONE hit"

And this is supposed to be my best friend!

Surestrike,

You might be right about the crotchity, old bastard thing. Like you said, those things happen faster than can be described, and it just seems sort of flowery to me to have a 500 word, melodramatic Capstick-like description of what happened in less than a couple seconds.

In my limited experience, I have just acted instinctively out of fear. Bang, bang... Gee, I'm still alive. More luck than anything else.

Hey, but its your story. I'm just glad you are still alive to tell it.

Now, the next time you hear the expression "Talk is cheap" you will forever know what that means.

Will, give the poor guy a break.

You have complained that Gregory's explanation of events is both too long and too flowery. You also criticized him for poor marksmanship although he put 2 rounds of 470 NE through the lungs of the buffalo.

When another person was gored by a buffalo in ZIM this year, you complained that some people might think that getting an article published in SCI magazine was an even trade for a buffalo goring. The person was gored had an article published in SCI magazine.

And when a fellow got killed in Tanzania by a buffalo, you were rather pointed about everyone in dangerous game country needing a .375, even though he was only hunting kudu, and even though he did not get off a shot because he was blindsided by a buffalo that came out of nowhere.

Would it be too much to show some understanding and even kindness to folks who have been through a rough spot?

Will and 500grains:



If I were perfect, I would have been crucified 2000 years ago.



I might not have taken a 100 yard shot on a buffalo with iron sights because they scare me.. depends on the situation, but probably not... but once I did, or didn't quite do the job at fifty, and if I'd gotten charged, I know I'd have written about the experience, both to share and to re-live/memorialize it... I've always heard that 3 seconds can take an hour when you're about to get stomped. From my no little experience at getting shot at, it seems reasonable to me.



Different strokes....

Will,

The only problem with being a flowery artist type is that the rednecks want you to get a hair cut and take your ear rings off and the critics.. oh the critics.....

Saeed,
I had thought about applying for a contract job over in UAE a while ago. Until recently I was flying B-777's for a major airline here in the states. I've since been down graded severly with all of the financial woes going on in the airline industry. If I do decide to come over and interview I'll be sure and look you up.

"I bet you don't You look like +220 lbs And Andrea is proberly like any girl small Lets se a picture
I weigh 200 LBS and shooting Christers 470 NE was no problem. I do not shoot any faster with my own .375 H&H."


Andre'

You are correct sir.

Our airline, Emirates, flies the 777, and if you do get a job here, you are welcome to come shoot as often as you like.

We don't have any doubles I am afraid, but plenty of bolt action rifles.

All the way from a 12 caliber wildcat to the 700 Nitro Express

Surestrike, I found your story absolutely fascinating, and your choice of rifle to be sound. Since I have been in almost the same exact sittuation I understand the time factor, and "drop of the adrenaline" shakes after the fight is over! It is hard to convence some, how these things happen, and the little choice you have at any given time! Congratualtions on your fine trophy.

I know what you are looking at in the airline business, I retired after 31 years with American Airlines, back in 1996, and got out just in time. I have no regrets, however, because the Airlines made it possible for a poor Texas ranch kid to hunt all over the world, and feed and school all my four kids, and wife!

Mikey,

Lets be serious, you are not going to reload a double in the middle of a charge. Either you stop the charge with the first two shots or you hope that your PH will do it for you.

If the animal is down it is immaterial if you are reloading a S/S or a O/U because being able to reload a fraction of a second faster will be totally irrelevant.

If you have two rifles, of the same weight, shooting the same ammunition and one rifle is S/S and the other is O/U, the O/U, after shooting the first (lower) barrel, will be in line earlier than the S/S.

It is for this reason that Skeet Shooter etc. use O/U and not S/S.

The fact that the first (lower) barrel of the O/U is shooting below the second (top) barrel do not constitute a problem because the sights are set for the bullet to cross the line of aim the first time at about 15 yards from the muzzle, presumably the distance of the first shot, that will be perfectly centered with the sights.

The second barrel at point blank range (were the trajectory is totally irrelevant) will shoot slightly below the line of aim, as the S/S, but absolutely centered, while the S/S will shoot at least 1/2" to the side.

I reiterate my point that, in order to stop a charge of a wild animal, a lighter O/U of a moderate caliber such a 375 flanged or a 9.3x74, shooting flat point monolitic solids, will allow a faster and more precise shot placement with both barrels than a 470 NE S/S.

When you have to hit brain or spine to stop the charging animal the disadvantages of the bigger caliber (slower first shot because of the weight of the gun and slower second shot because of higher recoil/torsion/muzzle flip) outweight his possible advantages.

In a gun presumably to be used to stop charges in any case the twist rate and bullet design are far more important than caliber.

Almost all bullets fishtail within few yards from the barrel, making their path unpredictable. In addition, an unstable bullet it is easy deflected by grass and leaves.

Flat nose, slow moving bullets at an higher than normal spin rate are the less affected.

Jeffery,

I'm not a girl, I weight about 200 pounds, I'm not recoil shy and I could shoot quite accurately my 378 Weatherby and my 460 G&A.

Simply I realized that those loud calibers were giving me no advantage over standard calibers. I now prefer fast handling guns that allows for quicker and more accurate shot placement. Live in Africa for thirty years and you too may change your ideas!

There is a little device that we use at the shooting range that give you a bip to start shoting and than stop counting milliseconds when you stop shooting.

Place 2 oranges on a wooden stick, one at about 25 yards and one at 5 yards.

Raise the gun at the bip and shoot them as fast you can. You must hit both of them.

Practice with a 470 NE S/S and than with a lighter O/U shooting a moderate caliber.

Then tell me what gun will hit the 2 oranges in the shortest time. Remember that we are talking fractions of a second. Remember also that in 1 second a lion make more than 15 yards, so even 1/10 of a second difference it is relevant.

Mac,

You are right about the price of the Searcy. 70.000 is the price in South African Rand, not in American Dollars.

Some times I like to be polemic just for the sake of discussion and on this topic we can go on forever. Thanks God we are all differents.

Some one of us like big guns, some one like small guns, some one only shoot muzzle loaders and some is convinced that the best caliber for hunting buffalo is the 45/70 Governement.

What really matters is that we all like African hunting and when we hunt we do it ethically. Enjoy your big guns and take care of the 9.3.

Regards

Andrea Sorry for calling you a girl.
I will try that orange trick when I get a change. I sounds like a good way to practice off-hand shooting.
My two rifle battery is 375 H&H & .500 Jeffery I am in the process of building a 8x68s long rifle on a DWM mauser action
I shoot a light load (light bullet) in my 375 H&H 235 grn woodleigh at 880 m/sec. I can shoot is as fast as any bolt action rifle.
I am still in the process of mastering rapid aimed shooting with the .500 Jeffery it may take a while, but I will get there.

Cheers,

Andr�

Last summer I attended a "fun" shooting match. One of the stages was for 375 caliber and greater. We shot at an 8 inch black bulls eye at 30 yards off hand. Two shots per stage. The fastest shooter was using an inexpensive 45-70 double, but he always missed with his second shot. I was second fastest with a 375 improved mod 70 bolt action and 4 X scope which slowed me down a bit. But I always had two hits. We both lent our rifles to other shooters and got simialr results. To get two hits with the double you just had to slow down and not fire until the front sight was back on target. This was not a fitted rifle, just off the shelf. Still, the Mod 70 was second fastest and had by far the most hits.

Andy

500grains

Do it with a 470 S/S and you will understand while I feel more confortable with a 9.3 loaded with solids.

Do it with a 470 S/S and and a 470 O/U and you will realize why I favor the O/U.

Andy,



Thank you! There is a big difference between firing two shots and to fire two quick aimed shots.



It is for this reason that a slide action can fire aimed shots at the same or higher rate of a double, because the operation of the slide allow for a quicker reallignement of the gun. Even with a Lee-Enfield action some people can shoot amazingly fast quick aimed shots.



The faster double for quick aimed shots is a heavy O/U of a moderate caliber.

This is an interesting thread, but I am not convinced. Granted, I have much less experience than many, but:

- I head shot a buffalo at 45 yards with a scoped bolt gun. There is no way I can do that with a double. My PH asked me to show at a 2" circle around 30 yards off the sticks before. The grass was high and he said we might have to head shoot one.
- Another buffalo I shot died with one shot but I put another in anyway. We snuck up on him in a korongo and the light was dim. No way open sights would have worked.
- My pH on that trip had a guy coming in after me and he was dreading it. I asked why and he said, "The guy is bringing an open sighted double." My pH carried one, but I think his point was interesting in that he much preferred his clients to bring bolt guns. BTW, that client did not even shoot a buffalo.
- You can like him or leave him, but Craig Boddington, who has shot plenty of buffalo, says a bolt gun with a scope is more effective. He uses a double a lot because he likes it.
- Saeed: There are plenty of competitive shooters who can shoot a ten shot group inside 4 inches at 100 yards. Obviously they are shooting standing with jackets, etc., but it is not a miracle.

Gee, let me write these things down:

1) Easier to pot a buff at 100 yds. with a scoped rifle than with open sights,

2) PH's/clients moan about clients/PH's, double rifles, scoped rifles, people, and most everything else (but still take/pay the money),

3) Some like doubles and some don't,

4) The 9.3 is sometimes better than a .470 and sometimes it ain't,

5) Sometimes buff charge and sometimes they don't,

6) What else?