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One of Us |
From email that I received: Quote: | ||
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one of us |
Thanks Dan, How can anyone respond to that! Frank | |||
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MAN! What an awsome story! | |||
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Moderator |
That was great! Thanks for sharing. Whitworth | |||
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Hey 500grs, that brassy taste is something you will remember as long as you live. In addition, this charge was completely natural, not artificially induced. The reason for that taste is adrenaline, and is what makes us hunt Dangerous game in the first place. Nobody will truley understand why we hunt buffalo, till they experience that adrenaline rush! Nothing will produce that rush like being in close quarters with a wounded buff. They ain't the barnyard milk cows, some think they are! Lots of things will work on Buff, but the best tool, I know of,in the tight spots, is a well made double rifle, ! Congratulations on this fine old trophy, and the experience of a life time! | |||
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One of Us |
Mac, that's not me. I was just posting the contents of an email that I received, but obviously the client and PH both had a very exciting time of it. | |||
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one of us |
Thanks for posting that. It is very interesting reading. I have read it three times already. Man, I cannot imagine what that must be like. Very interesting post, something to think about. I think I want to go to Africa. Between the buffalo and the snakes my wife is not sure that is a wise thing to do. R F | |||
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One of Us |
Great story. Incredible experience. What in hell has got into the buff this year? I've been inside their "safety zones" many times, and have been lucky that, so far, they have died when they were supposed to or just run the other way. On the rifle question, I have always thought that a scoped bolt rifle is best for the first and most important shot. I still think that. But I also fully realize that there's nothing like a double for follow up. That's the dilemma. | |||
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500grains: WOW!!! What an experience. Thanks for sharing the email. Gary T. | |||
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Wow, after reading that the only thing to tell your gunsmith is "Make it a double". Also after reading that I think I'll tell the bartender the same thing. Incredible pucker factor | |||
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A remarkable story that was well told. Thanks for sharing it. | |||
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I can't tell whether that reminds me more a Capstick story or a Searcy ad. | |||
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Wonderful, well written account of the hunt. I am glad that this one had the end result that it did. Please send this to Butch. Regards, Sam | |||
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Great story - the buff met a noble end....The closest thing I can relate to was close order combat in Southeast Asia many years ago. The brassy taste usually occurs just before your lunch comes up behind it. If there is a best part, it the utter complete pure savage joy of being alive and your adversary dead -there is nothing else like it.... | |||
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There's nothing like living to tell about it......Bob | |||
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SWEET JESUS!!!!!!, and to think I want to hunt them | |||
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It is better than that. You will have to kill him. He wants to kill you..... | |||
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It is apparent from the report that it was not the Searcy or the 470 NE that put down the buffalo but the spine shot. For all practical purpose a 9.3x62 bullet in the same spot (or even a 303 solid)was going to achieve exactly the same result. It is the shot placement that matter, not so much the caliber, and if you need to reach the brain or the spine to stop a charge it is far more considerate to use a gun that is easy to shoot accurately, as a 375 H&H or a 9.3x74. | |||
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Great story. Thank you for sharing. Cheers, Andr� | |||
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There have been two occasions in my life in which I was in such mortal danger. I can tell you that I would not wish them on anyone, but have never been more intensely alive than in those two situations. The brassy taste is just one of the things I can remember. The impression that things were going in slow-motion was another. The final thing is how weak in the knees I was when it was all over. Two emotions were present: the joy at being alive (perhaps relief that it was all over?), and then a bit later, the sorrow for the passing of a worthy opponent. | |||
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One of Us |
Quote: Andrei I agree that it was bullet placement that ended the Buff and the fact that it happened to be a Searcy had nothing to do with it. But, the fact that it was a Double and not a Bolt did determine the outcome. From reading the account it is very unlikely that a Bolt would have gotten in more than three shots in the time span given. Neither of the second shots from the client or the second shot from the PH would have happened with a bolt. It is more than likely that someone would have been injured or killed with only three shots in the animal instead of six and the spine shot would never have been made with a Bolt rifle. This is also another warning to those here who think that the PH is going to save their bacon. This fellow would have been toast if the client would have depended on the PH or if he had been carrying a Bolt rifle. It doesn't matter how good or famous the PH is if he misses. | |||
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Quote: Andrea you are absolutely right that a 9.3X62, or a 375 H&H would have done the trick with the same bullet placement. The breaking of the spine would kill as quickly if hit with a 243 Win! The problem with your opinion, here is, the shot that broke the spine was the sixth shot from start to finish, but in the final charge at close range it was the third shot durring the charge,as the PH only had one shot when the charge started, and the last, and second shot from the Searcy, is what broke the spine. With any bolt action, regardless of chambering, only one shot from each would have been made in that charge, and since it was the third shot that broke the spine, someone would have been stomped! In a close quarters fight NOTHING will beat a double rifle, any other sporting rifle becomes a single shot in a close quarters encounter, where the distance is measured in feet, not yards, as in this case! You are correct it isn't the chambering, but the placement that kills, but if you don't get to fire the killing shot, it make little difference what cartridge one uses! | |||
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Administrator |
I am very glad to see it all ended right for these two hunters. I just wonder why neither of these two gentlemen tried shoot the buffalo in the head, as I would have thought that is the only way to stop it. | |||
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Mac, I do not sustain that a bolt action is faster than a double. I sustanin that most people shoot better lighter calibres than a 470 NE. Why the buffalo was wounded in the first place? Because, comfortably resting on elbows and knees, at only 100 yards distance and having a 4 feet wide clear path, the hunter placed two consecutive bullets "behind the hart". The fact is that most of people tend to flinch a lot with big calibers, spoiling the aim. Probably if a lighter caliber was used the first shot was going to be the only shot needed. My conclusion is that the average foreign client will be better equipped with a O/U double in 9.3x74 or a 375 H&H rimmed loaded with FNGS bullets that with any bigger caliber that they cannot shoot at the same level of accuracy. | |||
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Mickey, I figured you would be jumping in here in defense of the double, even if someone tries to shoot buff at a hundred (+?) yards through the bush with open sights. So assuming this story is true, he just came up somewhat short of his up and comings! I wonder what this "lung" shot was, as a lung shot buff has always been pretty much incapacitated in my experience. | |||
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One of Us |
A double rifle?? Yes, I would love one and even two..But I am realistic and I cannot afford a double..It is easy to tout them and I do too..I got to shoot a 450#2 and loved it, 4 shots and 4 tin cans...Fit me like a glove...This gun was like 25K...But many of us cannot justify the price and we will just have to practice a little more and make that one shot up close and personal to count... Yes, I have always wanted one....but$$ Mike | |||
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Judge G Amazing......I won the AR double in April 2003......and I'm still patiently waiting for it!! How long ago did you place your order? Cheers GG | |||
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Quote: Andrea, You and I are on the same page, we are just saying it differently. It is imaterial why the buffalo was wounded in the first place! The fact is, he was wounded, but the charge did not start till later, and that is when the value of the double rifle came into play! I agree with you that the lighter chamberings, and hence, lighter rifles, are best for close-in fighting. I think, in this cercumstance, it makes little difference whether the double was O/U, or S/S, and in fact whether it was a 470 or 9.3X74R, because neither are heavy enough to handle badly, and a reload is out of the question. The recovery time to get off the second shot is shorter, slightly, for the 9.3X74R, weighing 8 lbs, than a 470 weighing 10 lbs, but not by much. The fact is, in this close quarters sittuation, either will be far preferable to any bolt rifle. I have a little S/S 9.3X74R double rifle, that weighs 8.3 lbs, and a 500/450 that weighs 10.1 lbs, and in the above case I would rather have a 9 lb 450/400 3" double rifle than any of them, but would take any one of the doubles over any bolt rifle in the same sittuation! | |||
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Andrea Sandri-Boriani Quote: That might be true. Most men want to play with their toys and hunt big game with their big bores. Professionel hunters who do not undestand this is narrow minded. For some hunters the trophy is the most important for some it is the hunt and for others it is using their favorite rifle. For some all of the above. I feel that many AR members are very interested in Guns, calibers and bullets. Not just the hunt. A professionel that hunts all year round lives a life that many of us has to work very hard for all year to get one or two weeks of. SAFARI In the mean time NON professionals, like me, goes to the range and tries to master the gun of theit dreams so that it can be used in the hunt of their dreams. And if I fu<k up while trying to live it the professionel hunter better be there. After all that is part of the reason he is getting paid. For me it is the sum of the details that makes the success, hunting for me is not a job it is a hobby. And using a big bore is part of that hobby. Some people will only hunt DG with a double and that is part of their "Hobby". If thay can not use their double then a element of their combined success is not beeing furfilled. The perfect caliber for the client is not always what the PH thinks is the perfect caliber for him. But the client is the paying part and as long as no laws is beeing broken (minimum cal.) then the client is in charge of what caliber he or her uses.IMO A lot of PH's would proberly hate to hunt with a "expert" that knew it all and told him/her where to buy the beer , where to drink it and where to take the empty bottles. Cheers, Andr� Cheers, Andr� | |||
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Quote: Based on the dearth of O/U 375 or 9.3 doubles travelling to Africa, this does not appear to be a popular view with safari clients at this time. What about a Ruger No. 1? | |||
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Quote: Andr� In this case the PH didn't do what he got paid for. If the client hadn't sorted out the Buff he and maybe the PH would have been sorted out by the Buff. Never, ever depend on your PH to save you in a charge. They miss (as did this one), they have misfires (as did Gordon Cundul sp), they panic (as some others that are known to have done)and shit happens (actually shit doesn't happen, people just make mistakes and blame it on shit but you know what I mean. Will my friend, I am not defending the Double except in the instance of the charge. You are right about the client screwing up the first two shots and precipitating the need for a Double at close range on a charging animal. He may have killed it outright with a smaller rifle and a scope but when he needed to go into the Jess he saved his life and maybe the PH by having a Double. I think he aquitted himself admirably. Wasn't it John Taylor who said, "I don't care how well you shoot at 400 yards, I only care how well you shoot at 4 yards." | |||
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Jeffery, I totally agree with you that the client's chosen gun it is part of the deal and it a PH's job is to prevent him to get hurt. That's fair. Still, in a African Hunting Forum where it is daily debated what is the best gun for the job, lets try to give some good advice to the members that have not decided yet on the "best" gun to buy for next year safari. I understand that a big gun may be part of the fun but lets not pretend that a hunter equipped with a very powerful gun is better equipped then a guy with a medium bore. So it may of some use to keep reiterating the basics, starting from: "Use the bigger caliber that you can shoot accurately" One inch may represent all the difference between a nice trophy or wounded and lost animal, or worst. If one cannot shoot offhand consistently 5" groups at 100 yards with the big bore, maybe that gun is needlessly too powerful. I started hunting with 378 Weatherby and a 460 G&A long before realizing that a 9.3x62 and a loaded down 458 Lott were a far better choice, so I fully understand what make people believe that the louder is the bang, the better it will kill. Now that I'm older and wiser I see things differently. When hunting in the bush the most important factor is the bullet design, to minimize foliage deflection and to secure straight in line penetration. That calls for a heavy, long, flat nose bullet travelling at moderate speed. This is the reason for the popularity in Africa of moderate calibers as the 7x57, 318 Westley Richards and 9.3x62. For DG, as the range will be normally below 100 yards, it is needed a very fast twist in order to stabilize the long bullets at the shortest possible distance from the muzzle. A bullet that is still fish-tailing at 20 yards it is not the best choice to stop a charge, irrispectively of the caliber. For DG the gun must be also short and not too heavvy for quick handling and the recoil must be not so severe to prevent rapid follow up shots. I agree that to stop a charge a double it is faster than a bolt action, and speed it is paramount. Still with a 9.3x62 I can hit two oranges at 20 yards in about 2" while most of the people shooting big doubles will take more time or they will miss the second shot. I'm convinced that for the average amateur hunter a O/U double 9.3x74 is a far better choice than a S/S 470 NE because: 1) It is faster in to action than an heavier gun. 2)The recoil is more manageable. 3) The firing of the lower barrel will cause an almost straigth push (with no torsion as in a S/S), allowing a shorter recovery time. 4) The instictive shooting of the upper barrel is more accurate at the shorter range than the second barrel of a S/S. Do you agree? | |||
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Quote: Quote: I agree with the above. I am no expert in doubles O/U or S/S so I am going to have to pass on that matter Sorry... - I would however think that a double in 375 Flanged or 9,3x74R, shooting solids, would be a fine choice for a cheep and light recoiled double. I have however shot allot of bolt action rifles in bigger calibers and have come to the conclusion that most hunters can manage a well constructed 416 Rigby or Rem. If recoil is a problem then ad some merc. reducers or extra weight or even a brake. I furthermore belive that solids is the way to go when hunting DG. Cheers, Andr� | |||
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Administrator |
"...If one cannot shoot offhand consistently 5" groups at 100 yards with the big bore, maybe that gun is needlessly too powerful..." I bet not many people can do that with ANY caliber, let alone a large bore. | |||
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Saeed, You must now be officially on vacation/holiday, getting sucked into this mush. There is a big difference between shooting big guns at game and targets, in the amount of abuse and recoil one can withstand. And in a charge, whether you can hit a peanut at 300 yards is rather irrelevant. On my best day I probably would have difficulty hitting a 5 inch circle painted on a buffalo bull's ass with a bat much less with open sights. | |||
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Administrator |
Will, We still have 38 hours before our flight, and as I am sure you know, this is the worst time of of it all. I have a bullseye target that is about 6.5 inches in diameter. It has concentric circles, with the middle of about 3/4" in diameter, marked as a 10, and then largers circles with lower scores. I love to put it up for people at 100 yards and let them shoot at it with a 308 Winchester, which has a Leupold scope of 6.5 - 20X. They can take as much time as they like, shooting off hand, standing, 10 shots. I cannot remember anyone who managed to CONSISTENTLY have all his shots in the scoring rings, including myself. You are right, one can hardly ever feel the recoil under field conditions. But, shooting under field conditions is not really conducive to pin point accuracy either. I have been very lucky so far, as I have never been charged by a buffalo, and will try my best to avoid a charge. But, I have made up my mind years ago, that if the distance is not too great, and I get a clear shot at the buffalo's head, then I take it. I still believe that is the only sure way of stopping a charging bull. Doubles are great for close quarter shooting for those who can handle them. But to use them for shooting animals in thick bush, at some distance, with open sights, is not my recommendations at all. I personally do not shoot doubles well at all, that is why I stick with a scope sighted bolt rifle. | |||
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Saeed, A string of 10 shots offhand it is very demanding on any shooter, particularly when using an high magnification scope. I rekon that three shots, with a minimum of 10 minutes break in between, are probably representative enough of someone actual hunting potential. When shooting offhand I normally use a lifesize target of an impala with no markings. I make my best grouping with the scope on 1X or with a red dot, that at 100 yards completely cover the vital area of the target. If I use any magnification when shooting offhand I tend to flinch badly. | |||
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Saeed, my friend: I really love the mystique of double rifles, although I don't shoot them anywhere as accurately as I do a scoped gun. I do know that a buffalo at 70 yards (on in) is in deep do-do if I decide to shoot him with a double... so, what I've done is to have made a conscious decision that the thrill of "tradition" (at least until I'm following a blood trail in the tall grass) is more important than taking a long shot. Now, when in the thick stuff, the assurance that I have a second barrel ain't so bad. When you see Pierre, ask him about my .375 Flanged. Pierre sure grabbed a hold of it when the droppings got wet and green. I don't think there is a faster pointing little double in the world, and a reckon a 300 grain bullet from it into a buff's brain would ruin his day... at least Pierre was counting on it... albeit with another P.H. and a .416 Rigby leading the way. While you're at it, shoot that "lightweight" .500 Jeffery that Pierre now has. I'd think it would give the T-Rex a run for its money! Have a good time and raise a toast to us back in the real world. Oh, yeah... I believe Anneli has a whole case of Tabasco for you this year! | |||
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