jwm's post above reminds me of something I have always thought! I believe folks that shoot from a vehicle or from very long range cheat themselves out of one of the basic things that true hunting gives them! That is the ability to OUTSMART the quarry and get in close without the game even realizing you are there. That is with the so-called plains game like the very wary Kudu, or the very flighty wildebeest.

A PH friend of mine told me, “Wildebeest don’t know what they are going to do next, so how are we to know what they will do next?” One of the most valued mounts I have from Africa is a 30 inch Cookson’s wildebeest that was taken with a 200 yd shot after a 400 yd belly crawl in the only cover we had, one foot high grass, to a dry wash about two feet deep, and a yard wide wit an ant hill on it’s far side. The first shot was taken from the ant hill at 200 yds, right through the boiler-room to which he took flight in a large circle, and stopped broadside now at 250 yds for the second shot about 3 inches from the other shot dropping him.

That animal was in plain view from the hunting car at a range of about 600 yds, If I had killed him from the back or the hunting car with a very flat shooting rifle, instead of my 375 H&H with a 300 gr Nosler partition at 200 yds, I don’t think he would have meant much to me.
Because that Willie is a 30 inch bull, and because of the very hard stalk, he is one of the favorite mounts I own. To me, that animal was HUNTED as well as I’m capable of, not sniped, and to me that is the difference between shooting wildlife at very long range, and hunting!

All that being said, this is simply my ethic, and not meant to be an indictment of those who choose to do it differently!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
jwm's post above reminds me of something I have always thought! I believe folks that shoot from a vehicle or from very long range cheat themselves out of one of the basic things that true hunting gives them! That is the ability to OUTSMART the quarry and get in close without the game even realizing you are there. That is with the so-called plains game like the very wary Kudu, or the very flighty wildebeest.

A PH friend of mine told me, “Wildebeest don’t know what they are going to do next, so how are we to know what they will do next?” One of the most valued mounts I have from Africa is a 30 inch Cookson’s wildebeest that was taken with a 200 yd shot after a 400 yd belly crawl in the only cover we had, one foot high grass, to a dry wash about two feet deep, and a yard wide wit an ant hill on it’s far side. The first shot was taken from the ant hill at 200 yds, right through the boiler-room to which he took flight in a large circle, and stopped broadside now at 250 yds for the second shot about 3 inches from the other shot dropping him.

That animal was in plain view from the hunting car at a range of about 600 yds, If I had killed him from the back or the hunting car with a very flat shooting rifle, instead of my 375 H&H with a 300 gr Nosler partition at 200 yds, I don’t think he would have meant much to me.
Because that Willie is a 30 inch bull, and because of the very hard stalk, he is one of the favorite mounts I own. To me, that animal was HUNTED as well as I’m capable of, not sniped, and to me that is the difference between shooting wildlife at very long range, and hunting!

All that being said, this is simply my ethic, and not meant to be an indictment of those who choose to do it differently!

Mac:

On my January hunt I brought a .300 RUM with 6.5-20X scope. I am pretty competent with that at long ranges. I brought it principally for Grant's and Thompson's. But when I decided to shoot a wildebeeste, I told my PH I wanted to use my .416 and to get up close, make a hunt out of it. I could have easily just stepped out of the truck and whacked any number of different from 250-300 yards, but it just didn't turn my crank...

quote:

All that being said, this is simply my ethic, and not meant to be an indictment of those who choose to do it differently!

Excellent statement, but too many people DO make it an indictment. Hunter's constantly making judgement's against other hunters simply over a difference in PERSONAL ethics, is going to kill the sport for ALL of us.

Mac, I respect you and your opinions on hunting, you have seen and done things I haven't. But as long as ANY of us that have been hunting for any length of time, overlook the fact, that in todays world, it has to be emphasized that ethics are individual concepts and those care formed over time.

Keeping folks doing things in a legal manner is what is important, simply because legalities apply to everyone, ethics are up to individual interpretation, as such, they will never be the same for everyone.

Not trying or meaning to be disrespectful Sir, I just view things from a different angle. Personally, except for extreme(IMO) cases, I have a hard time visualizing why shots over 200 yards are neccessary. If I remember correctly, in an article by Ross Seyfried concerning huntimng Pronghorn, Ross stated that all of the pronghorns he had shot combined only totaled 577 yards or something like that and it was for something like a dozen goats.

From my experience, it takes experience to understand the difference between a successful hunt and a memorable hunt.

CHC
In our part of the world, if you can't hit a deer at 250+ yds, you might as well stay at the camp.
Pipe lines & powerline right of ways along with large crop fields are a way of life.
Flat shooting, beanfield guns are the norm.
I prefer up close & personal, but that just ain't the way it is here.
Our deer lease is mostly pine thickets where you can't see 15 ft. or bottom land sloughs that will suck your boots off your feet when walking in or around them.
One of the many reasons I love hunting in Africa is the spot & stalk hunting since it is SO very different from what we do here.

quote:

In our part of the world, if you can't hit a deer at 250+ yds, you might as well stay at the camp.

Yes, I know places and situations dictate different approaches.

If you will notice however from my first response I stated:

quote:

I prefer the 200 or less, even though the rifles I use are quite capable of clean kills out to 400/500 yards, maybe farther

I can make longer shots of neccessary, I just don't normally purposely look for a situation where I would have to take such shots, some folks do and that is their thing.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
... One of the most valued mounts I have from Africa is a 30 inch Cookson’s wildebeest that was taken with a 200 yd shot after a 400 yd belly crawl in the only cover we had, one foot high grass, to a dry wash about two feet deep, and a yard wide wit an ant hill on it’s far side. The first shot was taken from the ant hill at 200 yds, right through the boiler-room to which he took flight in a large circle, and stopped broadside now at 250 yds for the second shot about 3 inches from the other shot dropping him.

That animal was in plain view from the hunting car at a range of about 600 yds, If I had killed him from the back or the hunting car with a very flat shooting rifle, instead of my 375 H&H with a 300 gr Nosler partition at 200 yds, I don’t think he would have meant much to me.
Because that Willie is a 30 inch bull, and because of the very hard stalk, he is one of the favorite mounts I own. To me, that animal was HUNTED as well as I’m capable of, not sniped, and to me that is the difference between shooting wildlife at very long range, and hunting!...

and there are folk who choose to take Wildebeest on wide open ground by arrow.

"Long range" is a relative thing.

THe guy who's skilled to taking game by arrow often well under 40yd, may consider a 200yd centrefire shot on game as lazy LR sniping, not hunting.

on the other hand, an aquatance of mine[who used .50cal for much of his career], does not consider shots taken by other snipers using .308win,.300mag out to 1000yd or so ,as being true LR.
Infact he doesnt consider trophy hunting animals as any challenging or special, and will only kill game for consumption or pest control.

I think the important issue is that you are satified you stalked that animal to what you believe was the best of your ability, your .375HH rifle was then able to help compensate for the distance you didnt stalk- assisting you in achieving your goal by allowing you to take the animal without the need or desire to get closer than 200yd.


Who knows, you may have well been able to get closer had you tried,...some folks might push on because they get greater satisfaction by getting closer, but can blow more stalks in the process of trying to collect an animal.
Other folks decide they really want the animal and reach a time-place-distance, where they feel its best to take the shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
... One of the most valued mounts I have from Africa is a 30 inch Cookson’s wildebeest that was taken with a 200 yd shot after a 400 yd belly crawl in the only cover we had, one foot high grass, to a dry wash about two feet deep, and a yard wide wit an ant hill on it’s far side. The first shot was taken from the ant hill at 200 yds,

and there are folk who choose to take Wildebeest on wide open ground by arrow.

"Long range" is a relative thing.

I think the important issue is that you are satified you stalked that animal to what you believe was the best of your ability, your .375HH rifle was then able to help compensate for the distance you didnt stalk- assisting you in achieving your goal by allowing you to take the animal without the need or desire to get closer than 200yd.


Who knows, you may have well been able to get closer had you tried,...some folks might push on because they get greater satisfaction by getting closer, but can blow more stalks in the process of trying to collect an animal.
Other folks decide they really want the animal and reach a time-place-distance, where they feel its best to take the shot.

Trax, The shot taken at 200 yds was as close as we could get because that 200 yds was bare flat ground.

There were about fifty wildebeest, and six very large eland bulls across that open ground and the eland got nervous and bolted because being much taller than the willies had a better view of things than the willies. They had caught movement when we slid into the little gully and if you know anything about eland they are as skittish as any animal I know. In fact the PH told me after that he was amazed we got that close because of the eland. When the eland bolted the willies ran in a large circle and stopped again not understanding what spooked the eland. Again it is hard to predict what a wildebeest will do because they don't know themselves.

Trax it is much easier to critique someone else's hunt from a keyboard 5000 miles away and 22 years later than it was to do it on the ground in the Luangwa Valley in June 1990.
I understand your post, but I detect a shadow of self perceived superiority in most of your posts here on AR. IOW you assume too much me thinks!

................................................................................................................................ ................

PS:

As far as range goes, if dangerous game is on the ticket, I see absolutely no value in shooting unwounded dangerous game like cape buffalo, or elephant from 100 or 200 yds away! I'd rather go home empty!

Dangerous game is only dangerous when close, so what is the point in shooting dangerous game at 200 yds? The only reason I hunt dangerous game is because they ARE dangerous! Dangerous game at 200 yds are for picture taking!

........................................................................

Sometimes a close stalk can be made, sometimes it can't. The only way anyone knows the difference is to have actually hunted enough under enough different circumstances to know the difference.

This is another issue.

Just to take it a little off course and draw fire from another sector, but it is one thing to stalk as close as you can and still have to take a long shot due to the circumstances in effect at that moment.

It is quite another to purposely set up and take long shots when they are not required. In real time normal hunting situations all of us have our own individual limits concerning how long of a shot to take, there is no "Written In Stone" commandment that dictates what each of us do as individuals on this subject.

This discussion is a shining example why hunting is going to be lost to all of us and our future generations. Each of us have our own experiences in our hunting careers.

In very few instances have any of us on here hunted together or on repeated occasions. The only ones that come to mind right off hand are Saeed and Walter and possibly Don.

For the rest of us, critiqueing or finding fault with someone else's description of a hunt does not prove anything, we were not there, so basically we are trying to hoist our own petards and expound on our own virtuous(?) concepts of hunting while pointing out the faults(????) of some one we have never met and probably never will meet or share a hunting camp with.

I miss groundhogs with some regularity beyond 200 yards. Not going to be risking shot on big game I don't make 100% on varmints. Besides if you can get closer you should anyway.

We talk about how far is too far.

How many of you have missed shots at closer range?

How many of you were absolutely certain of your shots in the field, and ended up missing?

Does this mean that if you miss 200 yards, then you do not shoot at anything past 200 yards?

Of all those of you who have hunted "dangerous" game, how many of you have been hurt by a "dangerous" game animal?

Personally, I consider ALL game animals dangerous if one gets too close or too careless with them.

I know, some are more likely to kill you than maim or injure you.

How far is too far?

It all depends on the situation.

I have passed on shot within a few yards, because I was breathless and unable to hold the rifle steady.

And I have taken other shots at over 500 yards and killed my animal.

quote:

It all depends on the situation.

I have passed on shot within a few yards, because I was breathless and unable to hold the rifle steady.

And I have taken other shots at over 500 yards and killed my animal.

EXACTLY!
An 80 yard off hand shot on buffalo in fading light when he is facing you is a LOOOONG shot.
A 250 yard shot on a broadside wildebeest in good light with a steady rest should be a chip shot.
All depends on the hunter and the situation.
Know your personal limitations and don't worry about what somebody else thinks.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
PS:

As far as range goes, if dangerous game is on the ticket, I see absolutely no value in shooting unwounded dangerous game like cape buffalo, or elephant from 100 or 200 yds away! I'd rather go home empty!

Dangerous game is only dangerous when close, so what is the point in shooting dangerous game at 200 yds? The only reason I hunt dangerous game is because they ARE dangerous! Dangerous game at 200 yds are for picture taking!

You see no value in shooting DG at 200yd - just like a bow hunter may see no value in shooting Wildebeest at 200yd.
if the dedicated bow hunter can't get close enough,rather than using a rifle to compensate,..he instead prefers to go home empty!

You decided to take your Wildebeest at 200yd because of prevailing circumstances,
others may decide to take DG at similar range also because of prevailing circumstances.

...so its all based on ones own personal individual reasons/justifications...correct?

Here is part of Bwana Cecil's Original Post:

quote:

just wondering what ya'll thought.

There have been 52 replies and one thing that keeps coming up:

quote:

so its all based on ones own personal individual reasons/justifications...correct?

Trax, what is it about the above that YOU do not seem to understand. Everyone or practically everyone has stated that it is a PERSONAL decision. What is the PROBLEM?

I've taken a couple long distance shots in Africa. I've never been a fan of shooting from too far away.

I would say 503 yards is the max I'd wanna go on zebra. Drop it in the triangle though.

For medium sized plainsgame like hartebeest, I would say 413 yards would be the max. Go shoulder.

Don't go past 140 yards on crocs. Brain is my preference.

Impala, no more than 452 yards. Shoulder

For lion keep in inside 137 yards. Shoulder.

Anything past 73 yards for leopard is pushing it. Heart/Lung

Cape Buffalo, unless you are Saeed, try to stay under 190 yards. Heart/Lung

Elephant on the run, don't go past 91 yards. Go shoulder.

Eland are fairly easy to stone with one shot, but anything past 253 yards is pushing it. Heart/Lung.

If you're gonna dial long distance on wildebeests, try to angle for a frontal heart shot.

Warthog 473 yards, but be careful. It's easy to shoot over them. Shoulder

In my experience Gemsbok have been the toughest to bring down with one well placed long distance.
shot. (I'm not talking about a spine shot, which is actually a near miss, but guys try to convince themselves they just made a great shot.)

Baboon, if you can get a fix on one that sits still, I'd say 1000 yards max. Anything less than that is a gimme'.

I've missed impala, warthog and buffalo at fifty yards.

How far is too far to shoot at a game animal?

Anything beyond your window of skill,equiptment and projectile preformance. As to judgement and ethic of a shot... only one can answer.

Elton

quote:

Originally posted by Elton Rambin:
How far is too far to shoot at a game animal?

Anything beyond your window of skill,equiptment and projectile preformance. As to judgement and ethic of a shot... only one can answer.

Elton

+1.

JD

You should not take a shot unless you know it will be a killing shot. There are no 100% but that should be your frame of mind.

You are going to find three kinds of fellows on this board.

1 Hunters who shoot only enough, to kinda know where their rifle will hit under most conditions. Most of these guy's should take a rest of some sort. The want the animal, that is what they are there for.

2 Shooters who will sometime hunt. The animal is not as important as makeing the perfect shot, It is much about testing one skill as it is about bring home a good animal. These guys understand and can read conditions. Know how to range animals.

3 Then there are the guys, who can do both!!!


I have been a shooter all my life, first bow, pistol, then shotguns, and now rifles. I shot my first pistol match when I was 22, I am soon to be 59 and have shot some kind of competion monthly until katrina hit. Thats about 30 years worth.

I like to hunt, mostly ducks and quail, In the last 10 years I made maybe 5 deer hunts killing 3 bucks and 5 does. I just don't have the time or easy access to do it all. I am more of a shooter and meat hunter when it comes to big game.

When I did my plains game hunt, it had been dry for a few years and I was told that much of the shooting would be at 200 yards +. I walked up and or crawled to most of the animals I took. I did not lose a animal, the law did allow shooting from the truck where we were hunting. Only 3 of 11 animals were shot from the truck.

We had a seat just behind the cab. When I shot from the truck it was offhand /standing. When shooting from the truck what all I had to stand on, was a 2x6, it was not a very stable position. It made for some tricky shooting. Do to the lack of cover, I did not expect to lose any game. 9 of the animal were drt.I shot a 375 and a 416.

I had a very old and thick springbuck jump out and run at 150 yards, I stood up and shot, missing the first shot on the run at 170 yards or so , second shoot on the run again was just behind the shoulder near 200 yards. Makeing the shot felt good.

I had been hunting this hartebeast for 3 days and he was impossible from the ground, I got up to him several times even as close as 50 yards. He was in the only patch of heavy cover on 50,000 hectoracres. It was too thick, all I could see from the ground was horns. My 2nd to last day he steped out at 250 while we were driving by. He was laughing at me, I could tell. I told them to stop, I stood up and took the shot off hand in less than 10 seconds. The fifty yard shot would have soon been forgoten, the shot from the truck was tough and very satisfying.

I shot my 3rd zebra at 200+ to make a rug for my wifes godchild in the last hour of the hunt,there was no time left.

The ph liked hunting from the truck because it was less stressfull to the herds. I have to say it was. We could drive up to 200 yards or so and not push them any, if you got off the truck they were gone. It was tough to get within 300 yards of these animals on foot. My shots from the tuck was just as much fun as the shots I made off the ground, because I was shooting offhand.

I insisted that we hunt from foot for most of the 10 days I hunted. We would drive along and find a good animal, leave the truck behind and begin our stalk from 500 - 800 yards away. A couple days we would just go for a long walk to see what we could find. On one of these days, I had been walking 3 hours when we saw a herd of eland. They were out about 500 yards, it took another hour before we got close enough to start a crawl. We were about 200 out with no possible shot, after 80 yards or so on my knees I ran out of cover. A half hour later a shot presented it self. One of my gembuck was about the same experienced and just as much fun.

I can 't say I enjoyed one style of hunting over the other, each was rewarding but for different reason. I can say that walking up to 100 yards of a animal and throwing up a set of sticks would not have done it for me. I like it a lot better than deer hunting. I remember the shots as well as the hunt for the animal and the quaily of the animal just need to be a good , most of them were gold by their standards (9 out of 11)

My first animal was a blue wildebeast, after a 1/2 hour stalk we were 300 yards out and looking at a good bull. The Ph put up his sticks , I knocked them over, he set them back up , and I knocked them over again. I told him to keep them out of my way, you should have seen the look on his face. My shot with a 416 rem mag was perfect, we walked up to the animal, he got this shit eatin smile and the hunt was on.

One of my favorite shots was the one my wife made. a gemsbuck at 200 yards from the truck, useing a rest, a very old brno 30-06 200 gr partion. It droped to the shot. Her very first shot fired at any gameanimal.

There are not enough days in the field during one's life, never let someone else tell you what to enjoy. It is your time, you will never get it back, if it's legal have at it. it all has value.

You got to know you will make the shot before you pull the trigger, on other than varmits 500 is about how far I will push it . Conditions have to be right, On deer I can do it off hand if I need to.

JD

Moja
Unless you're jerking our chain, I don't want to get in a shooting contest with you!
I would have to cut those distances in half.

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:
Moja
Unless you're jerking our chain, I don't want to get in a shooting contest with you!
I would have to cut those distances in half.

Bwana cecil those distances are the only ranges he shoots! He is Marc Watts of the long shot fame!

Not my cup of tea, but he is not pulling your chain at all! His African "BWANA MOJA" means BWANA ONE SHOT
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Thanks Mac
I do know who he is, and I understand he is one helluva shot!
He's so far out of my league it's unreal.

It does not matyter what league he is in or thinks he is in!!!!!!!!!

What matters is the ability of the INDIVIDUAL HUNTER to UNDERSTAND and ACCEPT their own INDIVIDUAL LIMITATIONS.

PLEASE tell me what is WRONG with that concept????????????????????????????????

CHC
I see nothing wrong with the concept you put forth.
I have not read where anyone said otherwise.
It's just that some peoples INDIVIDUAL LIMITATIONS are much different than others.
Apparently Mojas shooting abilities are vastly superior to mine.
I hunted behind him in Namibia in 2009, & the PH was very impressed with his shooting skills as well as personal behavior (gentleman).
If your personal limitation whether voluntary or natural is 50yds or 1000yds doesn't matter to me.
I'm not the Shooting Police.

Bwana, go back and look at some of TRAX's responses DUDE. I a,m not defending Mac, he is doing a damn good job of that.

What I am pointing out, as YOU did in your OP, the decision of what is and is NOT too far as a shot is concerned, Rests In The Hands And Abilitiess Of The Shooter Involved.

Maybe I am wrong, but Trax seems to want to be the "Shooting Police" in this situation.