http://www.traveller24.com/Exp...ion-hunting-20171124

Cape Town - In the midst of global outcry following US President Donald Trump's administration permitting the importing of hunted lion trophies, South Africa's lions will face even greater threat as the Professional Hunters' Association of SA (Phasa) has gone back on a previous decision and approved canned lion hunting.

Following a vote at their AGM on Wednesday night, 22 November, Phasa is permitting "the hunting of captive bred lions as a legitimate form of hunting".

However, this resulted in the association being suspended from the Operators and Professional Hunting Associations of Africa (OPHAA) and losing sponsorship from BookYourHunt.com.

Good for them!

Whose business is it to tell anyone what they should and should not be hunting?

I also saw in the news that a bunch of nutters from Europe have gone to China demanding the Chinese stop eating dogs!!

I would not even dream of eating a dog.

We have always had dogs, and treat them as part of our family.

But I would not waste my time telling anyone else what to do with them.

quote:

I also saw in the news that a bunch of nutters from Europe have gone to China demanding the Chinese stop eating dogs!!

Ah! ... sounds very much like the Brigitte Bardot disciples.

PHASA members are (quite rightly IMO) resigning their memberships in droves.

They are a bunch of meat eating livestock, born and bred for guys to shoot. They have no other purpose and were never raised to be released into the wild nor will they ever benefit the wild population.

Never understood the big deal with letting a guy shoot one. Impact on the wild population is the same as shooting a cow.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
They are a bunch of meat eating livestock, born and bred for guys to shoot. They have no other purpose and were never raised to be released into the wild nor will they ever benefit the wild population.

Never understood the big deal with letting a guy shoot one. Impact on the wild population is the same as shooting a cow.

Exactly!

So why are they not allowed to shoot them??

Practically every animal shot on a farm in South Africa is bred for that purpose!

Those of us who are siding with the antis might wish to bear in mind what will happen when the antis direct their hate at us shooting other animals bred on farms??

I've had this argument endless times but the short version is there's a world of difference between breeding & raising a lion in a pen until adult, drugging it, translocating it & then having some lazy arsed bugger shooting it a few hours later before it knows which way is up let alone got to know it's territory, watering points & escape routes etc compared to hunting antelopes (etc) on a fenced game farm where it's spent most if not all of it's life.

The former has nothing whatsoever to do with hunting whilst the latter does.

I'd have thought a bling man on a galloping horse could see the difference.

I suppose "canned" means whatever the media says it does, which is a big part of the problem. That said, this probably isn't the best PR move PHASA could have made.

https://www.news24.com/SouthAf...ng-reversal-20171124


Industry body in the crosshairs over captive-bred lion hunting reversal

2017-11-24 20:08

Simon Bloch, Correspondent

Durban – The Professional Hunting Association of South Africa (Phasa) came under fire this week over the body's reversal of its 2015 policy against the hunting of captive-bred lions.

Several board members, founders and past presidents resigned in protest and the Operators and Professional Hunting Associations of Africa (Ophaa) withdrew and suspended Phasa's membership indefinitely.



International sponsors and affiliate organisations attending Phasa's 40th annual general meeting earlier this week expressed their disapproval when members voted on a resolution to allow the hunting of captive-bred lions.

Hunting agency BookYourHunt.com immediately withdrew all future support for Phasa, saying the practice was incompatible with its "standards of fair chase and hunting ethics and is something we cannot possibly tolerate or endorse in any form".

Responsible hunting

A coalition group calling itself "Concerned Professional Hunters" condemned the association in a mass email and on social media.

"In light of the recent acceptance of the shooting of captive-bred lions as a legitimate form of hunting by Phasa, we, as a concerned group of professional hunters... no longer view Phasa as the legitimate mouthpiece for professional hunting in South Africa," it said.

"A new association will be formed in the very near future and will once again reflect the traditions of responsible, ethical and conservation-based hunting in South Africa."

Phasa's new policy backtracks on its 2015 resolution, in which members distanced themselves from all captive-bred lion hunting until the South African Predator Association showed that it was beneficial to lion conservation.



Ophaa said in statement that it was "deeply troubled" by the new decision.

"The practice of captive-bred lion hunting inevitably brings the entire African hunting industry, in every African nation where hunting is permitted, into ill repute," it said.

"Phasa's actions completely disregard one of the fundamental concepts of hunting, namely fair chase, and will, without doubt, jeopardise not only conservation efforts, but also the livelihoods of those who rely on well-managed and ethical hunting practices, far beyond the borders of South Africa".

Rotten eggs

Phasa president Dries Van Coller said he was under immense pressure from all sides in the hunting industry, but was also bound by the organisation's constitution to remain neutral.

"The matter was on the agenda – we took a vote by members who participated in the meeting, and as in any democracy, the majority won.

"We know that it will never be accepted by everybody... I think that this is probably the best thing that could happen to the industry, with the divide that will take place once and for all. We need to expose all the rotten eggs and all the issues that we have in the industry and address it from there in a constructive manner," he said.

Financial greed

Namibian Professional Hunting Association CEO Tanja Dahl said the resolution "flies in the face of all that is deemed to be ethical hunting by the overwhelming majority of hunting associations in Africa and around the world".

Linda Park, a director at the Campaign Against Canned Hunting called the move "morally reprehensible.

"This comes from an industry that is ethically bankrupt and driven solely by financial greed. The damage to Brand South Africa is huge".

I would not personally hunt a captive reared lion, but would not captive reared lions take pressure off wild populations?

Could you not use captive reared lions to feed the demand for lion parts in Asia?

Could you not use captive reared lions “restocking” wild populations?

Obviously, I do not support the druging of a lion for execution purposes.

Shakari I am with you! Some people get it and understand the difference - other will never get it.....
As much as I would love to hunt a wild lion, I made peace with the fact that I cannot afford it. Ce'est la vie! To shoot a captive bred lion is the antithesis of everything hunting a wild lion represents.

As a PHASA member I have some thinking to do....

. . . impeccable sense of poor timing. Unethical hunters and tone-deaf hunting organizations, the anti-hunting community's greatest public advocates.

Hi everybody . Here is the Phasa press release for your info.


PHASA ADOPTS NEW CONSTITUTION AND RESOLUTION AT 2017 AGM

Pretoria, 24 November 2017 –

At the 40th Annual General Meeting (AGM) of the Professional Hunters’ Association of South Africa (PHASA), a bold and brave step was taken by members within the Association to adopt a new constitution, which bring accountability and credibility to the Association. A total of 79% of our members who voted, endorsed the introduction of the new constitution. Under the new constitution the Executive Committee (EXCO), has the freedom to guide ad govern the Association on behalf of the members, but remains accountable for their actions, in accordance with terms and good corporate governance.

The driving factor that necessitated this change was that the previous constitution was no longer aligned with the current Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. PHASA identified an obligation to evolve and accordingly develop the new constitution of the Association in line with modern times. The new constitution is a living document that will enable the development of the Association in conjunction with the relevant Government Departments in a rapidly evolving hunting industry, for the benefit of the South African bio-diversity economy, our communities and our members.

The collective membership acknowledged the importance of being involved in the various segments of the industry. As one of the leading professional hunting association in the world, we need to take responsibility of our industry and provide guidance in the development of rules, regulations and standards. PHASA cannot merely distance itself from various stakeholders and activities occurring within the industry and expect to be in a position of influence.

A concern was that the new constitution would be perceived to condone the hunting of captive bred lions, which is currently a legal activity with in the Republic. Accordingly, a resolution was passed by 65% of voting members at the AGM, in which PHASA accepts the responsible hunting of ranched lions on South African Predator Association accredited hunting ranches within the relevant legal framework and/or according to recommendations of the applicable hunting association. This resolution provides for a more comprehensive standard of industry involvement and endorses industry input from both international and local hunting associations. It is the Association’s belief that the adopted resolution allows for the continuation and further development of close working relationships with local and international hunting associations.

PHASA reiterates its position in which it vehemently rejects any and all forms of canned or illegal hunting.

PHASA endorses all stakeholders to directly engage with our EXCO through the PHASA Office for further comment and/or clarity.

The PHASA EXCO realized the importance of the decisions to be made and introduced a new mobile app to make all relevant information and voting possible to all members.

PHASA realizes that there is a vast amount of misinformation and falsehoods out there and the EXCO plans to set the record straight with all relevant information within the near future.
We request that members realize the dangers of false information on social media and refrain from commenting on or behaving in an unprofessional manner or making uninformed statements.

For further information we request our members and the public to contact Dries van Coller, PHASA president, president@phasa.co.za or Tersia Du Plooy at phasa@phasa.co.za

I also attached the questions and answers pertaining the original post on this thread. The journalist called me dor a response as the President left for Namibia to attend their Convention. I asked her to send questions via email which I received shortly after noon today. She asked if possible for a response by 12.30. This gave us about 25 mins to respond. Hopefully you can see when this was published. 12.08 pm . This was exactly 2 min after I told her we would reapond ASAP.


On behalf of the Professional Hunters’ Association of South Africa (PHASA) we would like to thank you for requesting clarity on an issue which has been taken vastly out of context.
Firstly, with regards to your heading “PHASA votes for canned lion hunting”. PHASA vehemently rejects any and all forms of canned or illegal hunting. As an Association we did not vote for canned hunting (which is against the law) we voted for the collective involvement in the decision making process of managed ranched lions.
Question 1 – Why did PHASA vote to allow Captive Bred lion hunting at its AGM on Wednesday? Why did it reverse its decision made in 2015 against canned lion hunting?
As the largest Professional Hunting Association in the world, it is exceptionally irresponsible to merely distance yourself from a legal activity within your country and expect a positive outcome for lion conservation. The 2015 resolution played a pivotal part in bringing about change within the industry; however by distancing ourselves we allowed rouge elements to continue unabated. There are over 6000 Lions in private ownership in the country and it is paramount that PHASA be involved guiding a collective process which brings accountability to the industry.
PHASA has adopted a new resolution which only accepts ranched lions (lions which are not hand reared and have minimal human imprinting) to be hunted on accredited South African Predator Association (SAPA) Ranches. Despite there been over 200 lion breeding facilities in the country, only 10 (5%) of these have ascertained the high standards required to be accredited hunting ranches. PHASA only accepts the responsible hunting of lions on these few properties and has insisted on even stricter norms and standards especially for our membership.
Question 2 - Please provide comment regarding being suspended from OPHAA and having sponsorship withdrawn from BookYourHunt.com – does PHASA think these actions were justified in reaction to the/it’s vote?
It is indeed very unfortunate that the Operators and Professional Hunters Association Africa (OPHAA) felt the need to suspend PHASA membership indefinitely. OPHAA have in our opinion made a hastily and irrational decision without proper consultation. PHASA has an unquestionable duty to be involved within the broader industry and guide principles that have direct or indirect influences on the industry and the boarder community. The South African Conservation model is very different to our fellow neighbouring countries and through the sustainable use of natural resources been immensely successful in establishing South Africa as one of the leading wildlife conservators of the world.
It is estimated that there are 6970 wild lions in Africa (including South Africa) according to the 2014 published IUCN Red Data list. South Africa in contrast is home to over 6000 lions in private ownership, 46% of the world’s lion population. It is reckless and irresponsible for OPHAA to condemn PHASA for making a concerted effort to become involved and take a leading role in the conservation of 46% of the world’s lion population.

Question 3 – What will PHASA do now? Will it still approve canned hunting or will it reverse its vote following being suspended and having sponsorship withdrawn?
The loss of any sponsorship and ill-informed suspension is of course concern but as an Association, we have a broader responsibility to the South African biodiversity economy, the socio-economic development of our communities and most importantly our members. We are a membership driven Association and have a duty to be accountable to the members.
As an Association it is paramount that we engage with all stakeholders to address the ill-informed public perception about lions and the position PHASA has taken to be an industry leader.

Just remember.

The antis only aim is to stop hunting.

In all its form or shape.

So carry on giving in to them one step at a time.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Just remember.The antis only aim is to stop hunting

Canned lion hunting and the shooting of ranched lions have nothing to do with hunting anyway. Decent hunters won't support such actions. Only idiots are defending it.

If that is the case, then shooting ANY animal behind a high fence is not natural nor should it be considered hunting. ALL South Africa shooting farms should be closed.

You can't have it both ways...

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If that is the case, then shooting ANY animal behind a high fence is not natural nor should it be considered hunting. ALL South Africa shooting farms should be closed.

You can't have it both ways...

I fully agree with Shakari's opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If that is the case, then shooting ANY animal behind a high fence is not natural nor should it be considered hunting. ALL South Africa shooting farms should be closed.

You can't have it both ways...

Don’t you worry about it.

Sooner or later, with the help from some of us they will close all farm bred hunting.

Whose business is it what anyone should be hunting?

How many times have we debated whether shooting on farms in South African can actually be considered hunting??

quote:

Originally posted by Sunshine:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If that is the case, then shooting ANY animal behind a high fence is not natural nor should it be considered hunting. ALL South Africa shooting farms should be closed.

You can't have it both ways...

I fully agree with Shakari's opinion.

. . . unfortunately there are some that choose to be purposefully obtuse.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I would not personally hunt a captive reared lion, but would not captive reared lions take pressure off wild populations? No. Wild lions are on quota so one thing has nothing to do with the other

Could you not use captive reared lions to feed the demand for lion parts in Asia? Yes but equally Asia could farm lions themselves just as people farm cattle but neither have anything to do with hunting

Could you not use captive reared lions “restocking” wild populations? Not easily because of the way pride dynamics work & lions breed easily as do all cats. Good pride management helps wild populations though

Obviously, I do not support the druging of a lion for execution purposes.

I agree..... The only things it achieves is it gives the shooter a cheap ornament for his trophy room & brings true hunting into disrepute.

Could someone tell me how this kind of lion hunting helps to get the lion off the ENDANGERED species list ????
The BIG thing that the anti's fuel the fire with is "IT'S ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST......"
If we can manage the lion to get off the list it's a WIN WIN for us....

If hunting lions and other Big Five inside a fence is verboten according to some folks, then how does the Save Conservancy or the BVC get a pass?
IIRC, both conservancies are high fenced. If
large area fenced lion hunts are OK there, then why not elsewhere?

Shakari: Thank you for your response. As to your answer to question 2. If you are going to raise lion as stock, just kill them as stock to feed the Asia market. The PHASA needs to remove themselves from the equation as the venture of hunting would be all gone.

I do think some hunting pressure would come off wild lion hunting if captive breeds were shot. Obviously, such practice would have to be strongly regulated. But I am thinking of the farm bison hunts in Dakota as an example. If x number of folks are going to to go lion hunting in a year and x decide to take captive reared then hunting pressure has got to be reduced on wild lions.

However, it may be as likely that X number of folks are going to hunt wild lions and captive reared lions are not going to be the market/experience they book. So, I concede you may very well be right.

Can Asians buy lions? I have hear s an individual in Vetnam has bought or tried to buy some white rhino.

The folly of this discussion is some in the hunting community believe that they can come up with some set of ethics or shooting practices that will appease or appeal to the anti-hunting masses. That’s simply not going to happen. We are not going to be successful giving up one form of hunting in the hopes that we can preserve all other forms of hunting.

HWC and problem animal culling receives the same level of disdain as shooting a sleeping lioness under a tree in the wild or a lion behind high fence. So if culling predators that threaten lives and livelihood is not acceptable, nor will shooting an animal by any method under any circumstances.

We are not somehow going to win their hearts and minds by mindlessly bloviating about ethics or bombarding social media with hunting videos. Their hearts and minds are entrenched and will not be swayed from their mission - a total ban on any form of hunting. Give them an inch and they will only come back for the rest.

So at the end of the day, trying to impose ethics or acceptable shooting practices is only further threatening the future of hunting. Those who threaten hunting the most are hunters who are willing to slowly and methodically give up our rights.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If that is the case, then shooting ANY animal behind a high fence is not natural nor should it be considered hunting. ALL South Africa shooting farms should be closed.

You can't have it both ways...

There is a notable difference between hunting Lions that have been raised and hand-fed in the confines of a pen than to one that was introduced to a fenced area and allowed to grow and fend for itself.

The pressure on wild Lion population numbers can be regulated by restricted quotas which will create the desired price controls and entertain those who can afford it.

This practice has already been adopted and implemented but has also opened the door to canned Lion breeding which caters for them with restricted finances and disregard towards hunting ethics, opening a second door to the anti-hunting community who also happen to be regular visitors at these breeding facilities.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If that is the case, then shooting ANY animal behind a high fence is not natural nor should it be considered hunting. ALL South Africa shooting farms should be closed.

You can't have it both ways...

There is a notable difference between hunting Lions that have been raised and hand-fed in the confines of a pen than to one that was introduced to a fenced area and allowed to grow and fend for itself.

Maybe to you, but not to the organized anti-hunters who are diligently working to end any and all forms of hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If that is the case, then shooting ANY animal behind a high fence is not natural nor should it be considered hunting. ALL South Africa shooting farms should be closed.

You can't have it both ways...

There is a notable difference between hunting Lions that have been raised and hand-fed in the confines of a pen than to one that was introduced to a fenced area and allowed to grow and fend for itself.

Maybe to you, but not to the organized anti-hunters who are diligently working to end any and all forms of hunting.

Exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If that is the case, then shooting ANY animal behind a high fence is not natural nor should it be considered hunting. ALL South Africa shooting farms should be closed.

You can't have it both ways...

There is a notable difference between hunting Lions that have been raised and hand-fed in the confines of a pen than to one that was introduced to a fenced area and allowed to grow and fend for itself.

Maybe to you, but not to the organized anti-hunters who are diligently working to end any and all forms of hunting.

It is true that anti-hunters are unable/unwilling to differentiate between the two but it would be easier to try and convince them that the existence of wild lions needs to be controlled due to a myriad of factors that will eventually lead to their natural extinction without actually being hunted.

The same would apply to all forms of wildlife living in a natural state.

Namibian Professional Hunting Association CEO Tanja Dahl said the resolution "flies in the face of all that is deemed to be ethical hunting by the overwhelming majority of hunting associations in Africa and around the world".

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Isn't this what we do to millions of cattle, sheep, pigs, chicken every day? Where is the outrage?

The problem is the bit in the middle where the so called 'hunter' shoots the animal before it knows which way is up & then brags to his friends what a hero he is.......... Quite honestly these people might just as well stay home & just buy the skin direct from an abattoir.

Oh and just wait for the next story about the situation where it says that PHASA not only condones the practice but have changed their constitution & removed the word ethical & replaced it with the word legal to accommodate it!

What were they thinking?

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

. . . appease or appeal to the anti-hunting masses.

Pity that some do not even recognize that that demographic is not even who the battle is over . . . just like the anti-hunting groups are not fighting to persuade die-hard hunters that they are misguided.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

It is true that anti-hunters are unable/unwilling to differentiate between the two but it would be easier to try and convince them that the existence of wild lions needs to be controlled due to a myriad of factors that will eventually lead to their natural extinction without actually being hunted.

The same would apply to all forms of wildlife living in a natural state.

So just how many of your hunting rights are you willing to sacrifice to be more convincing to the anti-hunters?


I believe you underestimate the ground level attack that the anti-hunting lobby is waging in Africa to end all hunting. This is not a dinner party popularity contest as some seem to believe but a political and well funded movement that is pressuring governments daily as we pretend that we can negotiate with them by surrendering rights. As I said before, hunters are our own worst enemy in the mission to protect hunting rights.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

. . . appease or appeal to the anti-hunting masses.

Pity that some do not even recognize that that demographic is not even who the battle is over . . . just like the anti-hunting groups are not fighting to persuade die-hard hunters that they are misguided.

A good point..and not only that, but you need to convince other hunters as well. I can tell you the average duck hunter in the Midwest couldn't care less whether you're allowed to shoot Elephants/Lions or not and a good percentage are probably leaning against it.

anti-hunters are the enemy, but the average Joe that isn't necessarily for/against hunting is who you need to educate. Also..back to that duck hunter for a moment. I will guarantee you he/she wouldn't think highly of other hunters shooting caged lions in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Isn't this what we do to millions of cattle, sheep, pigs, chicken every day? Where is the outrage?

You are right of course Saeed...

...been saying for years that it should be a mandatory course in High School for kids to learn and experience first hand where food comes from.

Every sub-adult should have to watch, at least one time in their life, a mammal walking into an abattoir alive and getting killed, disassembled, and packaged into food. The same with poultry. It would change the way the world viewed matters overnight if it happened.

As a veterinarian...I can tell all there is absolutely zero difference in basic anatomy and physiology of a lion versus a steer...or a dog for that matter. The perceived differences are nothing more than the “human-like traits” that ‘people assign to them.’

Personally...I would never for a second consider hunting a pen-raised lion. But they are livestock and shooting one with a rifle is NO different than putting a captive-bolt on its head.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Isn't this what we do to millions of cattle, sheep, pigs, chicken every day? Where is the outrage?

You are right of course Saeed...

...been saying for years that it should be a mandatory course in High School for kids to learn and experience first hand where food comes from.

Every sub-adult should have to watch, at least one time in their life, a mammal walking into an abattoir alive and getting killed, disassembled, and packaged into food. The same with poultry. It would change the way the world viewed matters overnight if it happened.

As a veterinarian...I can tell all there is absolutely zero difference in basic anatomy and physiology of a lion versus a steer...or a dog for that matter. The perceived differences are nothing more than the “human-like traits” that ‘people assign to them.’

Personally...I would never for a second consider hunting a pen-raised lion. But they are livestock and shooting one with a rifle is NO different than putting a captive-bolt on its head.

We actually had that as a mandatory class in HS...We had a field trip where went on a tour of a Dairy farm and listened to the farmer talk about his operation and then went to a slaughter house and watched cattle walk in and by the end were steaks/burger. This was in the 90's and I'm pretty sure they still do it.

The F.F.A (Future Farmers of America) still have a strong presence in the Education system in the Midwest.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Isn't this what we do to millions of cattle, sheep, pigs, chicken every day? Where is the outrage?

You are right of course Saeed...

...been saying for years that it should be a mandatory course in High School for kids to learn and experience first hand where food comes from.

Every sub-adult should have to watch, at least one time in their life, a mammal walking into an abattoir alive and getting killed, disassembled, and packaged into food. The same with poultry. It would change the way the world viewed matters overnight if it happened.

As a veterinarian...I can tell all there is absolutely zero difference in basic anatomy and physiology of a lion versus a steer...or a dog for that matter. The perceived differences are nothing more than the “human-like traits” that ‘people assign to them.’

Personally...I would never for a second consider hunting a pen-raised lion. But they are livestock and shooting one with a rifle is NO different than putting a captive-bolt on its head.

We actually had that as a mandatory class in HS...We had a field trip where went on a tour of a Dairy farm and listened to the farmer talk about his operation and then went to a slaughter house and watched cattle walk in and by the end were steaks/burger. This was in the 90's and I'm pretty sure they still do it.

The F.F.A (Future Farmers of America) still have a strong presence in the Education system in the Midwest.

Two of my Dad’s brothers were lifelong Agriculture High School Teachers. My mother was a lifelong elementary school teacher through the late 80’s very early 90’s. In Texas...the above practices ended in the 90’s. I sincerely hope they are still in place in the midwest.

I can assure you they don’t take place in Chicago, Detroit...NYC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, etc...San Diego, Las Angeles, San Francisco, etc...Portland, Seattle...or Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, San Antonio, Austin now...witness the difference.

If hunting organizations wanted to make a difference...in the holiday season...they would run ads depicting ele/rhino poaching/miscellaneous snaring versus organized hunting anti-poaching.


Also...they would show what ele do to poor-folk farms and lions killing livestock/people and how hunting blocks around parks are intended as buffer zones while also contributing to habitat and providing migratory corridors.

This is where the battle could be won.