Shooting test- Charlie Haley putting the lads through their paces the week before at Rifa.



Jesse, normal hunting conditions on the exam. The candidates are moving in on a bull elephant.



Goeff Dollar and Gordon Banks making a practice approach on some elephants on the lake shore.



Tristan Peacock (l) and Sean Buffee stand their ground as their stalk is blown and he makes a mock charge. He is at about 6 m from them in the photo and Tristan is telling him to stop and think about it, and Sean is beginning to lift his rifle.



Rose Mukoga from the parks board. She came down to see for herself what went on at the exam and watched Richard Shultz set up a perfect approach and Wayne make a perfect frontal brain when Richard provoked a charge (as instructed).



All animals shot on the proficiency are supposed to be “Non Trophyâ€. A trophy is in the eye of the hunter, but a “non trophy†is in the eye of the examiner!!!! This little 70lb non trophy bull was taken next to the banana farm. Fisher and Dave with the Ivory.



The good, the bad, the ugly:
[from left to right]
Stuart solid from the new Norma PH ammo. Through tusk base and into brain. Lodged in the neck of a big bull.
Speer .50 AE round. Through the shoulder of a buff and stopped under the skin on the far side. Only hit the scapula and ribs though and not heavy bone.
A bent Barnes .416 round. Hit the right hand shoulder of a buff and ran down the right hand side, stopping in the rump. Broke the shoulder but failed to enter the chest cavity.
Barnes solid from a .458 Lott. In one side of an ele’s skull and retrieved under skin on the off side.
Hornady solid. All Hornady solids gave problems. The one pictured hit a bull between the eyes and turned to run along the bone rather than penetrating. After seeing a dozen problem bullets, one was sectioned - it has a soft brass jacket not a decent steel one like their old solids. It doesn’t work at .458 Lott velocities.



A couple of bent Barnes - .416 & .458. a PMP mono snapped completely in half! (picture to follow).



The remains of a Trophy Bonded solid. Didn’t get through the tusk. (see following photo)



The tusk nerve where the remains of the Federal Trophy Bonded bullet was found.



L-R Goeff Dollar, Richard Shultz, Gordon Banks, Tristan Peacock, Wayne Dietriksen, Sean Buffee.



Hole in atria (top wound) from a .416 solid. Damage to bottom of ventricles from a .500 A square.



Hole from a .375 soft (Swift A Frame).

quote:

This little 70lb non trophy bull was taken next to the banana farm. Fisher and Dave with the Ivory.

Great pics!

Good to see Shaun Buffee on his final exam. Hope he did well. Seeing as he faced many many elephants in similar circumstances with only a video camera in the past, my guess is he did OK here.

***



Well done to the lads. I hope whomever the shooter was he can afford to buy the excellent tusks off Parks. Unlikely to get this quality again for himself.

Excellent pictures - thanks for taking the time to post them.

Very nice photos and info and the results from some bullets are a bit frightening.

Are the bent Barnes Solids considered bullet failures??

- mike

The .416 is. Turned 90 deg from point of impact. Should have gone straight through the chest, but turned and ran down the same side of the animal. It was tumbling and created massive trauma to the intestines which would ultimately have been fatal, but did nothing to bring the buff down.

Terry,

Did you take these pics? Was this last week?

Shaun...that's my guy!!

http://www.acacia-safaris.com/index.html

It takes some doing to bend a Barnes soild. [those blue noses look like some of those carried around by Buzz. I wonder what history they have! Hard to belive any normally loaded Barnes solid is going to make a RH turn on the shoulder of a buff].

And that Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer? They must have been shooting rock elephants.

The guy that "made the elephant charge." Richard Schultz?

Apparently different opinions on the correct shade of "khaki."

Thanks for the pics.

Thanks for the pics Terry.

That's certainly a couple of nice tusks for a "non trophy" ele! I'm sure most of us would have been pleased with them on our wall at home!

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
The .416 is. Turned 90 deg from point of impact. Should have gone straight through the chest, but turned and ran down the same side of the animal. It was tumbling and created massive trauma to the intestines which would ultimately have been fatal, but did nothing to bring the buff down.

What could the reason for this be?

To high speed, due to high heat

Bullet design

Angle the bullet enter the animal

I would be interseted in the possible causes for this behaviour of the bullet. One would expect better performance of a 416

What I want to know is how you get a bull elephant to charge.

Call his mother a slut?

And how often is the attempt successsful? Most bulls I've surprised hauled ass to get out of town.

Ganyana,
Can you tell me if Richard Shultz's father is a PH that lives at Vic Falls and uses a 404 and 9.3 combo ?

Photo's taken by Don Heath

Don was with Shaun Buffees group the day he shot a buffalo, and Shaun was the only one in that group with a .416. Richard Shultz used the .500 A square

Richard is a nephew of Andy Shultz -ex Ingwe Safari's (matetsi)

The guy acting as the PH on the hunt is expected to set up the lad doing the shooting for a frontal brain shot (on ele) or a frontal chest shot on buff. If he can provoke a charge, so much the better. The area for the elephant hunts is one where they are not normally hunted and accustomed to people- See photo of Trisan and Shaun on the lake shore. That ele was certainly not afraid op people.

In the last 10 years I would think at least half of the elephants taken on proficiency were advancing onto the hunters when the first shots were fired. Most of the remainder had been alerted to something amis by the "PH" and turned to look at what was going on.

Jaco- No Idea on that .416. All the Barnes bullets I have ever recovered that have hit the front leg, zygomatic arch or tusk base of a big elephant have bent or mushroomed. Similarly, all the PMP bullets and many home made ones turned from Brass break pieces off or totally disintergrate when they hit at .375 velocities.

I prefer a flat nose on a bullet- when Art Alphin was out here in the 80's developing his A square ammo line we had many debates (verging on arguments) about metal and shape. His bullets are a whole lot harder than barnes, and yet at the same time less brittle than regular brass and I have never seen one bend or break up. They do though, wear out barrels in short order!

I would also rather have a bullet a little too soft than too brittle, and am personally very impressed with the performance of the flat nosed Barnes banded solids - not that I am going to change from woodleighs or Stuarts in my 9,3. Why did that .416 Barnes turn? Don't know- it just goes to prove that nothing is infalable in hunting!

I have used at least 1,200 465 grain .458 A-square monolithic solids on large game in a 450 Ackley and never recovered one that had bent. I think they are an ideal solid and prefer their round nose to a flat nose.

Does anyone know anything more about the Stuart Solid that is listed in bullets photo? It sure looks like it held up well after a brain shot through a tusk.

-Steve

I believe I know where the .416 blue Barnes came from, and if I am correct the load was as follows:

416 Rigby
102.0 grains H4831 (regular cut)
F215 primer
about 2420 fps

As to the question of why it would tumble, there is a two part answer. First, the bullet is made from brass which is not very dense and hence very long. Unless a faster than normal twist is used in the barrel, then such a bullet will be less stable than a lead core bullet due to excessive yaw caused by length. The solution is to step down 10% in bullet weight if using brass bullets, or to use a faster twist barrel. the second issue is nose shape. The Barnes blue bullets had a hemispherical nose which seems to have a negative influence on both penetration and bullet stability.

Cool! Can't wait to get my .416 back in working condition.

I think I'm getting the same velocity (2400 fps) with a few grs less of the same powder out of my gun, but of course that has the 25" barrel.

Nice pictures... I'm just packing for my antelope hunt in MT, what a difference with the shirt-and-shorts in these shots!

Frans

Another one from the proficiency exam.

Photo of a PMP .375 bullet that broke clean in half on a chest shot on a big tuskless bull. Made for an exciting few seconds

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
Another one from the proficiency exam.

Photo of a PMP .375 bullet that broke clean in half on a chest shot on a big tuskless bull. Made for an exciting few seconds

I wonder what they do during these proficiency tests. Of all the bullets I have recovered none have broken in two, disintegrated, etc. Bent, yes, but one has to wonder about all these failures, which seem very prevalent during these tests.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I wonder what they do during these proficiency tests. Of all the bullets I have recovered none have broken in two, disintegrated, etc. Bent, yes, but one has to wonder about all these failures, which seem very prevalent during these tests.

Always have been impressed on the performance of Zim PH's. When the test standards remain high for the writtten, shooting proficiency, and field work, the result shows.

Its really too bad that the applicants don't have the choices of ammo that we have in the US and Europe, maybe wouldn't have all the surprises on bullet performance. Of course this is real hunting conditions, not shooting through wet newspaper,plywood,water,gelatin, etc. The applicants have the right media for bullet testing and we have the bullets! What wrong with this picture
Fortunately, 500 grains and others are doing field testing on some bullets in African Hunter Mag.

Dak

Ganyana, Your report on the new Hornady solids is the first one I've seen. As a fan of the old Hornady steel jacketed solids I have been wondering about these new ones that Hornady claims are formed from the same material as their cartridge cases.
thanks for the reports and keep us all updated.

Maybe they should try Norbet's Super Penetrators ......

SuperPenetrators (for comparison)

The white PH in the Elephant picture is David Amyot. I hunted with him a month ago, while he was with John Hunt. David got me my first Leopard. He is a true professional, and the epitomy of the title Professional Hunter.
Anyone lucky enough to spend time with him will truely be pleased! Good Luck David!!

My Leopard story will appear in SCI magazine, probably in January 2007

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Thanks for posting that Alf. It made it so much easier for me to understand! NOT!

Erik,

The blessing of bullet performance is that every time it is different and you can draw any conclusion that you want. Full steam ahead....

Just for my continuing education, how many total rounds are fired into living or recently killed big game animals? and what percentage of bullets would you expect to "fail"?

And finally, are there any bullets that didn't fail?

quote:

Unless your bullet has a flat meplat that is large enough to compensate for small yaw fluctuations that the projectile incurs in it's path all ogived oblong solid bullets will overturn in dense media irrespective of twist !

This one did not turn over in a live elephant at 9 paces. Notice the nice round ogive sticking out of the elephant skull.

And here you see it being removed from the elephant skull.

Point on.



465 grain TCCI RN solid (same as A-Square).

Since my rifle had a 1-12 twist rather than 1-14 twist and was going faster than normal (2,500 fps), and was relatively short in length, it did not "tumble," or bend like the .416 Barnes (SD 340) that Ganyana has shown us.

Penetration was just 39 inches compared to 60 inches for North Fork FN, but the bullet did not bend or turn over 180 degrees.

Another identical bullet went from rear hip to chest without bending or turning over. It even perforated 6 inch thick rear leg bone (femur).

The Barnes and TCCI/A-Square are made from the same or nearly same composition of free machining copper, and have similar ogives, so it is certainly a fair comparison. The most likely explanation is just as Dan has described.

Alf, you have my data on penetration of 375, 416 and 458 bullets in the La Grange stop box. How can you say that rotational velocity does not effect penetration????

Dan's summary sounds like the Gospels to me. Theories should correspond to emperical data not the other way around.

Andy

Very interesting overall.

I am just happy to see that Shaun Bufee is testing and I should think that he passed with flying colors.

He is going to be top pick professional in short order.

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Absolutely no foundation whatsoever for your assumption regarding twist rate and bullet weight!

It is not an assumption. It is a fact.

quote:

By changing bullet mass or changing barrel twist you will not alter the fact that the bullet is going to tumble !

I am afraid you are not following the point. A long bullet needs a faster twist. A brass bullet is longer than a lead bullet of the same weight, hence the need for a faster twist to keep it stable in meat. Note that your theory predicts failure of all bullets, rather than explaining the actual failures noted in the field.

My 2 cents worth

I believe that most bullets used on big game are under stabilised, and that it is because of this that we see so many 'odd' performances. It is also why a .375 penetrates better when down loaded slightly.

I know this is controversial but from first hand experience... Fire a 7.62 Nato ball round into a fair sized teak tree at 10m and it is unlikely to go through. walk back to 50m and fire another shot and you will have an exit on the back of the tree. Fire a tracer up into the night sky and you will see it spiraling initially and then steadying down.

I think all bullets leave the barrel slightly unstable and the effect of free rotation and air pressure soon stops the slight wobble- but at 6 to 10 paces (I think the longest shot on proficiency this year was a buff at 25, and all ele were inside of 15) the bullets have not had a chance to stabilise. A tighter twist, a shorter, denser bullet both combine to minimise the problems.

As a final thought for Will- This is an exam. Murphy states that if something can go wrong- it will! With the PMP mono breaking up ( quite common) the story runs like this- A leaner guide and a learner PH were detailed to shoot a big tuskless bull. The PH ran the hunt (guides don't hunt so we are examining their ability to protect their clients). There was a good wind and they closed in to arround 15 paces when the hunter stopped, got the guide ready to shoot and the examiner stepped into the open to get the bulls attention. Get within an elephants comfort zone undetected and then let him see you is a good way to get him to advance on you. (if he smells you, he'll run). The bull, turned, and immediately charged. The guide fluffed the frontal brain shot, and the LPH backed him up with a frontal chest shot- at 6m. Bull changed from a mock charge to a real one and there was a frantic chase round a baobab until the appy PH managed a frontal brain shot.

/

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
My 2 cents worth

I believe that most bullets used on big game are under stabilised, and that it is because of this that we see so many 'odd' performances. It is also why a .375 penetrates better when down loaded slightly.

I know this is controversial but from first hand experience... Fire a 7.62 Nato ball round into a fair sized teak tree at 10m and it is unlikely to go through. walk back to 50m and fire another shot and you will have an exit on the back of the tree. Fire a tracer up into the night sky and you will see it spiraling initially and then steadying down.

I think all bullets leave the barrel slightly unstable and the effect of free rotation and air pressure soon stops the slight wobble- but at 6 to 10 paces (I think the longest shot on proficiency this year was a buff at 25, and all ele were inside of 15) the bullets have not had a chance to stabilise. A tighter twist, a shorter, denser bullet both combine to minimise the problems.

As a final thought for Will- This is an exam. Murphy states that if something can go wrong- it will! With the PMP mono breaking up ( quite common) the story runs like this- A leaner guide and a learner PH were detailed to shoot a big tuskless bull. The PH ran the hunt (guides don't hunt so we are examining their ability to protect their clients). There was a good wind and they closed in to arround 15 paces when the hunter stopped, got the guide ready to shoot and the examiner stepped into the open to get the bulls attention. Get within an elephants comfort zone undetected and then let him see you is a good way to get him to advance on you. (if he smells you, he'll run). The bull, turned, and immediately charged. The guide fluffed the frontal brain shot, and the LPH backed him up with a frontal chest shot- at 6m. Bull changed from a mock charge to a real one and there was a frantic chase round a baobab until the appy PH managed a frontal brain shot.

Ganyana,

I would think that someone should tell the appy's that using those solids is not a good idea!

I forget who (maybe someone in their hunting biography) wrote that they wore a white hat for that vey effect. Sneak up to them, let them see the white hat, and here they'd come.

You have absolutely no idea how depressing it is to me that I will never have the chance to become comfortable with inducing every elephant approached to charge. Charges are still an extremely emotional experience for me, but then I keep going back!

ganyana,
Is the Stewart solid in caliber 9,3mm or is it .416?

I got some 9,3.s from Ken that I havent tested yet. Norma will be interested in this.

Husky

The Stewart "solid" is one of his new steel jacketed solids with a very thick nose cap (2mm steel before the lead.) only a few were to hand (sadly) and the one pictured was fired from a .458 Lott

Thank's
The one I got was the same as he made for Martin Venter. I like the design with the lead double locked both as it is bonded (Woodleigh's FMJ are not) and by the disc in the rear so they can't fish tail like the new FMJ Hornady bullet's

NitroX:

quote:

Maybe they should try Norbert's Super Penetrators .....

With steel jacket and integral disk. This is normally too expensive for a bullet manufacturer. (Hornady changed their design to brass).
But, Ganyana :

quote:

The Stewart "solid" is one of his new steel jacketed solids with a very thick nose cap (2mm steel before the lead.) only a few were to hand (sadly) and the one pictured was fired from a .458 Lott

It may be possible to get steel jackets for small manufacturers?