For all the pontification regarding the how and why of Cotton's ( Northern ) White Rhino no one has actually brought up the pesky little issue of CIVIL WAR

Each as every one of the countries that made up the natural habitat of this subspecies have for years been no go areas embroiled in bitter civil wars leading to wide spread famine and break down of civil order.

Raoul du Toit <rdutoit@***.******.***>
Mon 3/26/2018, 10:35 AM

Hi Lane

I advocated 20 years ago mixing some northern white rhinos with southern in an out-of-range situation (like Kenya) to at least retain some of the genetic diversity represented by the northern extremity of the species distribution. Some leading conservation biologists (like Bob Lacy) agreed with me but the majority opinion was against – a pity.

Raoul



Here are some extracts from literature:

Until 2010, biologists considered the two white rhinos – the northern (Ceratotherium simum cottoni) and southern (Ceratotherium simum simum) – as two subspecies. Colin Groves from the Australian National University and his colleagues argued they are two different species – Ceratotherium simum and Ceratotherium cottoni.


“We compared the cranial morphology (bone structure of the head), dental morphology (the structure of the teeth), body measurements, appearance, behaviour and the genetics of the two groups and came to the conclusion that they were divergent enough to be recognised as two different species,” says Prithiviraj Fernando, an elephant biologist at the Centre for Conservation and Research, Sri Lanka, who collaborated with Groves on the study. Groves died in November 2017. “The genetic analysis of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA demonstrated that the two groups had been genetically separated for over a million years.”

Splitting the white rhino into two species was not popular with many African biologists and conservationists. The IUCN Red List encapsulates the objections. Mordecai Ogada, one of the authors of the book The Big Conservation Lie, is a critic of this taxonomic upheaval. “Splitting species creates an illusion of crisis,” he says. “They point to subtle morphological differences. Geneticists go into very fine resolution to prove difference. They’ve gone overboard. They [rhinos] could be individuals of races but not species. Subspecies is a more acceptable assumption.”

The future viability of the northern white rhino depends on interbreeding with southern white rhinos. This is difficult to pull off if they were considered separate species. For instance, Bengal tigers (Panthera tigris tigris) breeding with ones from Sumatra (Panthera tigris sondaica) for conservation purposes would be acceptable since they are both subspecies. But the offspring of tiger and lion has no value for the conservation of either species.

In 2016, Eric Harley and other geneticists from the University of Cape Town, South Africa, examined the mitochondrial DNA of the two white rhinos once again and concluded they were subspecies. The ancestors of the animals had separated not one million years ago as Groves and his colleagues estimated but more likely between 460,000 and 970,000 years ago. Such inconsistencies are bound to creep in when samples are drawn from few individuals.

What's the word on cloning? If ever there was good reason this is it.

For what is worth, assuming they could have been protected big assumption, the Southern and Northern race should have been breed. Both groups could have used the influx of genetics and this summary leads me to conclude they can breed and produce viable off spring.


I would breed a Southern Bull to Sudan's daughter and (I think) his sister tomorrow.
The lion and tiger crosses were steril

Thank you, Dr. Easter.

Cloning requires the harvest of a mature oocyte from the female of the same species and then a surrogate mother...which could be a southern white female.

They could even potentially use a Southern White female oocyte as all the nucleus is removed in the cloning process...only a bit of mitochondrial DNA would persist in the cytoplasm. The southern white mitochondrial DNA would pass on to the cloned Northern females...but not to males.

Getting a mature oocyte will not be an easy task from a female white rhino. That is also assuming they banked tissue of the last male Sudan...which I bet they did.

Subtle correction on mDNA

The mother provides mDNA to both sexes. The father does not contribute towards this. The mitochondria exist in the egg cell from the mother. The father contributes half the chromosomal DNA.

Mitochondrial DNA will show only the mothers female lineage.

So a cloned Northern White rhino would have the non white rhino mDNA.

An artificially inseminated one will have the proper mDNA, as would a surrogate pregnancy Northern rhino calf, even if the birth mother is a southern white rhino.

Cloning is a bit more expensive.

In humans, using the right drugs it is easy to stimulate the ovaries to produce multiple mature eggs which can be harvested for in vitro procedures. This can then be implanted in the original donor mom or a surrogate. I believe this is the same process used with animals, but dosages of the drugs and timing need to be worked out.

While Kenya is wealthy by African standards, this is very expensive and equipment intensive, thus the requests by Kenya for funding.

100% correct on the mDNA Dr. Butler...thank you! I must have had a brain fart when writing...not to mention I am an orthopod.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Subtle correction on mDNA

The mother provides mDNA to both sexes. The father does not contribute towards this. The mitochondria exist in the egg cell from the mother. The father contributes half the chromosomal DNA.

Mitochondrial DNA will show only the mothers female lineage.

So a cloned Northern White rhino would have the non white rhino mDNA.

An artificially inseminated one will have the proper mDNA, as would a surrogate pregnancy Northern rhino calf, even if the birth mother is a southern white rhino.

Cloning is a bit more expensive.

In humans, using the right drugs it is easy to stimulate the ovaries to produce multiple mature eggs which can be harvested for in vitro procedures. This can then be implanted in the original donor mom or a surrogate. I believe this is the same process used with animals, but dosages of the drugs and timing need to be worked out.

While Kenya is wealthy by African standards, this is very expensive and equipment intensive, thus the requests by Kenya for funding.

What I was getting at earlier on mDNA in Females vs. Males...if you are cloning to just make a breeding sire...as would be the case in cloning Sudan...the southern white mDNA would not prevent him from being a pure Northern breeding animal if he was bred to other Northerns as they would get their mDNA from the pure Northern female.

On the other hand if you made cows...those cows would not breed as true as they would pass on Southern White mDNA.

The other caveat is that super-ovulating and recovering mature oocytes from large mammals is not that easy...it would be the rate limiting step in producing a Northern White Rhino clone.

Good info! China has lots of yen and a yuge presence in Africa.

If you looked at a Northern White Rhino and a Southern, could you see an obvious difference?