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It has been stated that of the estimated 5+ billion species to have ever existed- roughly 98+ percent of those are extinct- the vast majority of those extinctions before predation by man became a probability- Of the estimated <15 million extant species, science has cataloged roughly 1 to 1.5 million- What does this have to do with the last white male rhino? Well very very few species have been moved to extinction by man , much less hunting. The current Facebook furor is largely expressed by those lacking education and or insight, as well as the lack desire to be educated or insightful, rather they seek to be emotive only. I do wish for and hope for the species to yet be saved by "artificial" means, whether to be ranch raised for hunting or not. The concept of "saving" a species for use by and for man is not new whether for food or pleasure Much like other "hot button" topics this one will get little thoughtful consideration by the masses that quite simply prefer to emote and blame , than to study upon it and plan solutions. | |||
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You are actually serious aren't you???? I have already listed 4 species that were exterminated by humans, Passenger Pigeon, Labrador Duck, Dodo and Quagga! Can you supply proof they weren't, if so, do so! There are some other species that did become extinct mainly thru the actions of humans! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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emotive uninsightful idiot now on ignore | |||
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Just another POS that is close minded enough to not understand that humans have contributed to the extinction of several species, thast NEVER were sport hunted! What is the single most important factor that has caused the decline and probably extinction of ALL the species of rhinos, POACHING, end of story! Why were those animals poached??? To supply a demand that HUMANS were causing, not hunters but people that were wanting the horns for status reasons. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse calling someone like Can Colla that vulgarity cuts all good will you have tried to make. I have been his guest as has my uncle. His accomplishments in hunting, to his country, and his community are abound. Not to mention his hospitality to me and mine. His reply to you was in opposition to your position, but respectful. When someone takes a position opposed to you, you often demand proof. An open hand achieves more than a clinched fist among allies. May I suggest 4 animals are a drop in the bucket to the mammals that have been lost to extinction. I do not have the knowledge base to say how involved man has been in the extinction of most animals. I take no side on that sub debate. I rise only to ask that you engage respectfully your memebers on my post. As my first boss in the legal profession told me argue like a gentleman. | |||
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Heym, I am 67 years old, I show respect to those that show respect to me! How is that different than what ANYONE else should expect? Can you prove that since the event that ended the time of dinosaurs, that HUMANS have NOT been the major contributing factor in the extinction of various species, and not just the four I listed. If so do so, if not, Please do not try and tell me how I should respond to anyone. Humans, in North America almost brought about the extinction of Buffalo/Bison care to deny/dispute that????? It is totally immaterial what Clan Colla has done for you or anyone else, reality is, humans, not necessarily hunters have led to or helped with the extinction of various species, since we became the dominant life form on the planet. If you cannot or do not understand that, it is your problem , not mine. As for Clan Colla if he is that thin skinned it is his problem, not mine I do not owe him ANYTHING including respect! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I do not have the knowledge base to address the extinction of mammals sub issue. Others have given examples in this thread of species that appear to be dying of with no human contribution. His first post was respectful. I read your response as hostile. Can Colla’s response indicates he did as well. I know I would not consider you a friendly associate if you attacked me with vulgarity. In addition, I believe your last post has undermined your good will and exchange of knowledge you have made. You are not harming Can Colla. You are only isolating and harming yourself and the positions you hold. I extend this observation not in confrontation but as a friend. Do with it what you can, and as you feel you must. | |||
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LHeym 500, I apologize, 1st to my parents, for I was taught better- and second to Randall, for the use of idiot- I did knee jerk a bit, it was however not just in response to his above post in this thread, rather the end point of fatigue accumulated from his continuous acrimony. The disruptive,frequently irrelevant, deliberate agitations of almost any thread he joins in on- (outside the ARPF,that is,where this is required behaviour) is unworthy of further attention. I'll term it: Oracleus Olneysensis Randallii Crazification (adapted from "another thread Crazified", credit: MJines) (Much as Lane's thread lamented- this place HAS changed, and it is not an improvement) However, apology stated, he is, as of now, the only member I have ever placed on ignore. And, on ignore he stays. We have lost from our AR ranks many experienced, educated voices, and the trend continues, this is not a symptom of thin skin, rather a desire not to waste one's time. I greatly sympathize with those that have resigned from participation here, we are all diminished due to those losses. | |||
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This is an example of the complete and catastrophic failure of so called conservationists (NGOs, animal activists, anti hunters etc) to protect an iconic specie. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Unless I missed it, no one has responded to the question of whether the Northern White Rhino is different genetically from the Southern White Rhino. | |||
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Why have a website like this where people are supposed to be free to express their opinions on issues, when so many seem to only want to read opinions that match their own narrative on the various issues? As for differences in the genetics of northern and southern white rhinos, it could be possible, but from what I know of animal physiology in general, apart from outward physical variations, the main difference is the geographic location of the various subspecies. Taxonimists over the decades are basically lumped into two schools of thought, Lumpers and Splitters. As an example the lumpers putting all whitetails in North America under one catchall group, while the splitters divide and even give a specific designation to Texasw White Tails and another for the Florida Key Deer and another for the Coues white tail. They are asll basically whitetails with probably no real genetic variation. Most likely the genetics are the same or are close enough that AI would most likely work. That is a simplistic way of explaining the situation, Lane is a lot more qualified to address this. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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It is about time someone put the blame where it belongs and put it in print online.I hope you post exactly that on your FB page. | |||
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Something like a cockroach! | |||
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+1 These attitudes are common from hunters who age or for whatever reason, can no longer hunt. They feel no one should hunt after they have finished hunting. | |||
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One problem shootaway, LHeym is NOT an older hunter, I may be wrong but from pictures he appears to be in his thirties. As for the concept of raising them on farms and then cutting off their horns, I do not believe the actual killing of those animals by a paying customer would or should ever take place. Animals in that program would either eventually die of old age or euthanised for medical or physical problems. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Why let them die of old age or euthanize them for whatever reason (classic tree-hugger mentality) when there are willing buyers who would pay serious money for a condemned de-horned animal? Don't forget that SCI is alive and well.  | |||
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I spend a lot of time posting these facts and promoting that hunters preserve land, water and wildlife. I have converted many. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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With all the blabber, no one has given any information as to whether there is or isn't a genetic difference between the northern, and southern white rhino. If they are the same genetically what is the problem? Just inseminate the Northern females with semen from a healthy southern bull. If they are indeed different then the northern is in real trouble, but it has nothing to do with hunting of the southern white rhino in the very open reserve for the white rhino. The population of the southern white rhino species was in real danger till the W. Rhino reserve was started, and the very expensive hunting of a controlled number of the white Rhino pays for the reserve. This includes both the real hunting, or the dart hunting for funds to protect the remaining white rhino herd which has doubled and tripled since that program was started some years ago! I simply see no reason to down grade the controlled hunting of a small surplus both ways for the southern white rhino, that has been the savior of the species! ............Agree or disagree, at your pleasure! I consider this a no brainer fix for the endangered white rhino's escaping certain extinction it was staring at before. The controlled hunting of renewable numbers of any wild game is the salvation of all wild life that depends on the same habitat to survive, not just the game animals! The only killing of wild life that endangers all wild life in an area is POACHING, and misinformed so-called animal rights ignorance! ......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Dr. Lane Easter has said he will find out for us the answer if the Southern Race and Northern Race are genetically different. Personally, I like the old definition of a species when two can breed and produce viable offspring, then they are the two of the same species. But when it comes to science I am a simpleton I understand that there has been some hybrids that have challenged this, but to me those exceptions do not swallow the issue of rule. I hope they are genetically the same. If that is true. The species is not gone. This is more propaganda than disaster as the distinction is simply geographical. That would be the best chance of the White rhinos return to its Northern Range. Think of it this way the animal we know as the Rocky Montain Elk had been present in KY in the colonial period dissapears from Kentucky. We would not say Rocky Mountain Elk are extinct bc the last one idea in KY when 1000s exist in Colorado. (I know there is an agrument on whether eastern elk that disappears from west of the Appalachian frontier were the same as Rocky Mountain Elk, but let's assume for agrumendo they are). Howeve, as I type that let's continue to assume both races are the same genetically. I would fear reintroduction to the Northern range would result in those seed animals being quickly poached. That does not mean reintroduction should be ignored. But the reality must be visualized to prevent that likely outcome. Even assuming the two races are the same, I am not arguing the death of the last native male to this range is not tragic. Simply, that the emphasis on extinction of a species by the media is excessive or imbalanced. The only thing I will say is that a can conceptualize that numbers of any given species in a given area are so low that there is no renewable off take. I concede this may be more of a quota issue where strict quota to a specific hunting area is enforced. How long can a male rhino breed. If he can breed up to he basically to too feeble to survive let him breed until he dies. I am under the impression cow elephant never go through menopause. Thus, as long as they are not starving they can always be breed. Of course, there woukd come a time where the teeth would be gone and fertility ends do to malnutrition. | |||
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Until sub-Saharan Africa is brought back to the rule of law and wilderness areas can be protected...there are very few places where rhino are safe. See my report here. There is zero chance of them returning to their range in Sudan, Congo basin, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya...etc etc. If they can't be protected totally in the BVC...those northern criminal havens are beyond hopeless. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I always wonder if folks here actually read and understand what is stated. For example, note this quote of mine: "BTW, market hunting was ALSO a big reason for the pigeon and bison declines." No where in it did I state hunting was the sole reason. Plus, I even used upper case for the ALSO. So after your comments about Derr's research, I spent two hours yesterday afternoon and another hour this morning trying to find the research that bears out these two conclusions: Of the original numbers thought to exist in the herds...the most they came up with that could have been killed by powder and shot was about 10%. What in fact did happen is TB & Brucella introduced through European import cattle spread through the herds devastating them and then the buffalo hunters shot off the remaining stragglers down to the final few. To that end, the only pertinent things I could find were the following: Saving Genomes - 2008 Texas Genetics Society (by Derr and others) A Review North American Bison History - Death and Destruction on the Prairie Death and Destruction on the Prairie - Bison suffered a well documented population decline that between 1840 to 1905. - Population numbers were reduced from millions to a few hundred animals distributed across North America. - Although most of the blame for this tragedy falls on hunters, a number of other explanations are available. - An analysis of the fossil record also suggest that bison may have gone through a number of historical bottlenecks. However, modern bison appear to be relatively free of the inbreeding depression and other fitness related problems usually associated with severe population bottlenecks. And this: The Ecological Future of the North American Bison: Conceiving Long-Term, Large-Scale Conservation of Wildlife ERIC W. SANDERSON,a,* KENT H. REDFORD,a BILL WEBER,a KEITH AUNE,b DICK BALDES,c JOEL BERGER,a,† DAVE CARTER,d CHARLES CURTIN,e JAMES DERR,f STEVE DOBROTT,g EVA FEARN,a CRAIG FLEENER,h STEVE FORREST,i CRAIG GERLACH,j C. CORMACK GATES,k JOHN E. GROSS,l PETER GOGAN,m SHAUN GRASSEL,n JODI A. HILTY,a MARV JENSEN,o KYRAN KUNKEL,i DUANE LAMMERS,p RURIK LIST,q KAREN MINKOWSKI,a TOM OLSON,r CHRIS PAGUE,s PAUL B. ROBERTSON,s AND BOB STEPHENSONt Three hundred years ago, bison ranged across the Great Plains in the tens of millions (Shaw 2000), reached from the Arctic Circle to Mexico and from Oregon to New Jersey (Hall & Kelson 1959), and were essential to the ecology of grassland systems and the economies and spiritual lives of the people that dwelled in those grasslands and other places (Haines 1995). Bison wallowed, rubbed, pounded, and grazed the prairies into heterogeneous ecological habitats; they converted vegetation into protein biomass for predators, including people; and they shaped the way fire, water, soil, and energy moved across the landscape (Knapp et al. 1999; Table 1.) During European colonization, bison provided meat and hide and indirectly facilitated industrialization by providing leather for machinery belts (Isenberg 2000). By the late 19th century these factors had driven the bison nearly to extinction in the wild (Hornaday 1889) and, with them, the Native American communities that once depended on bison for their survival (Haines 1995). Sooo...if you can point me in the right direction with a link, I would like to read about the comclusions and how they modeled them. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Lane, Almost forgot. This is what the NPS site has to say about it. Note one of the authors. Where the buffalo roam: The role of history and genetics in the conservation of bison on U.S. federal lands By Natalie D. Halbert, Peter J. P. Gogan, Ronald Hiebert, and James N. Derr As an emblem of the Great Plains, American Indians, and wildlife conservation, the American bison (Bison bison) is one of the most visible and well-known of wildlife species in North America (fig. 1, above). Species of the genus Bison originally entered the continent via the Bering land bridge from northern Eurasia in the Illinoian glacial period of the Pleistocene epoch (125,000–500,000 years ago). Bison are the largest species in North America to have survived the late Pleistocene–early Holocene megafauna extinction period (around 9,000–11,000 years ago), but likely experienced a dramatic population reduction triggered by environmental changes and increased human hunting pressures around this time (Dary 1989; McDonald 1981). The modern American bison species (Bison bison) emerged and expanded across the grasslands of North America around 4,000–5,000 years ago (McDonald 1981). As the major grazer of the continent, bison populations ranged from central Mexico to northern Canada and nearly from the east to west coasts (fig. 2; McDonald 1981), with 25–40 million bison estimated to have roamed the Great Plains prior to the 19th century (Flores 1991; McHugh 1972; Shaw 1995). By the 1820s, bison in North America were already in a state of continuous decline, especially in the South and East (Flores 1991; Garretson 1938). Evidence on many fronts indicates the initial decline was due to both natural and anthropogenic (human-induced) forces (Flores 1991; Isenberg 2000). For example, the introduction of nonnative animal species led to increased hunting efficiency by aboriginal peoples with the proliferation of the horse culture, spread of exotic diseases (e.g., tuberculosis and brucellosis from cattle), and competition for grazing and water sources with growing populations of cattle, horses, and sheep. Natural pressures including fire, predation by wolves, and severe weather events such as droughts, floods, and blizzards also served to limit historical bison population sizes (Isenberg 2000). Uncontrolled hide hunting by both aboriginal and Euro-American hunters, facilitated by advances in firearms and transcontinental rail transportation, advanced the rapid decline leading to the well-documented, precipitous population crash of the late 1800s (Coder 1975; Garretson 1938). A preference for young female bison hides likely added to the population decline by disrupting herd social structure and natality (birth) rates. Fewer than 1,000 American bison—including both the plains and wood bison types—existed in the world by the late 1880s, and the species appeared to be at risk of extinction (Coder 1975; Soper 1941). The timely formation of six captive herds from 1873 to 1904 by private individuals and governmental protection of two remnant wild herds in the United States (Yellowstone National Park, established in 1872) and Canada (Wood Buffalo National Park, federally protected from 1893, park established in 1922) effectively served to save the species from extinction (table 1); locations indicated on fig. 2). The individuals involved in the early bison conservation movement were primarily cattle ranchers concerned with the disappearance of large, free-roaming bison herds. For example, the Texas cattle rancher Charles Goodnight ( fig. 3), at the behest of his wife (Haley 1949), captured bison in the panhandle of Texas during the late 1870s and early 1880s to form a small captive herd. From these few herds, a combined total of fewer than 500 bison served as the foundation stock from which all bison in existence today are derived (Coder 1975; Soper 1941). Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Fulvio, I am not now nor ever have been a Tree Hugger! But, regardless of what you and some others believe, hunting in Africa, especially for species such as Elephant, Lion, Rhino, Leopard and Giraffe are number, and NOTHING is going to change that. You want to have your own words used against you by those wanting to stop hunting for those species, JUSTIFY the shooting of an animal inside a fenced in enclosure that has already had its horn removed. Now how ethical is it for ANYONE to shoot an animal under those conditions?????? Care to answer that? The animals in such a program would be dehorned on a regular basis so as to make them unattrictive to poachers. Maybe those that simply want to let the species die off are RIGHT, But I Do Not FUCKING Buy Into That Shit!!! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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First let's get a few issues out of the way. I spent my first two years in college as a biology major before switching to journalism. so I'm not a dolt in that regard. Thus, I'm well aware of the process of evolution and what went on millenniums ago. But for the sake of discussion let's try to limit this to the last couple centuries or so, OK? Plus, I've been writing about these very issues for about 40 years, give or take a couple. In order to do that takes research, i.e. interviewing experts and scientists, reading pertinent research and then sorting through facts, theories, computer models, etc. in order to write an informative article that is as accurate as possible. And although I try not to, I sometimes screw up.  Right off hand, I can list at least a dozen species that have been extinct or on the brink of extinction because of humans. At least six of them are right here in Arizona, with several making comebacks. Regardless of how one plays with semantics, unless some prolonged weather extreme occurs, humans are generally responsible for a change in "environment." Deforestation, agriculture, mining, development of urban centers, damming of waterways etc. and yes, even the introduction of domestic livestock that adversely affects wildlife. Along with indiscriminate HUNTING, the latter was partly responsible for the near extinction of our desert sheep in AZ when domestic sheep were allowed to roam the hills. Today, we have a very huntable population in most of the historic ranges in the state. Before "civilization" arrived in AZ, there were only two NATIVE trout -- the Gila and the Apache. In their infinite wisdom humans figured the more the merrier. So they imported rainbow and brown trout, then planted them in most of the state's fishable streams. Before long, the two native trout were nearly wiped out. The few remaining were captured and moved to hatcheries. In the meantime, their historic streams were cleansed of non-native species. Today, both nearly extinct species are well on their way to recovery and even offer limited angling opportunities. And lastly, it's always a pleasure to have civil discussions on this site. Thank you for that.  Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Tony, The Bison bison genome was only fully sequenced in the last decade and private money financed much of the work (Ted Turner). Thus some of the research is still embargoed today. The fact is however...the research is much newer than the articles you quoted. Much of what of what I stated was from what Dr. Derr shared with me personally and from talks he has given on the subject at hunting conventions. Here once more is the gist. At the height of the Bison bison population, there was estimated to be about 60 million bison. At the beginning of the 19th century, well before the large scale commercial hunting began...the population was thought to have already decreased to 15-20 million. That drastic drop is currently believed to be (based on genetic markers found in the genome) largely the result of the introduction of European cattle diseases to the naïve Bison bison populations...namely TB and brucella. Statistics based on historical data on USA industries calculating the amount of powder and shot that could have possibly been used...came up with enough to kill ~6 million to maybe 12 million...10 to 20% (worst case scenario) of the original numbers. The bottom line is that Bison bison populations were plummeting well prior to large scale hunting (eluded to in one of your articles above). Information gathered from the genome map highly suggest it was due to diseases. Hunters did help to finish off the dregs. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Was any thought given to the effect on Buffalo numbers that Indians had??? They hunted and followed the buffalo herds Year Round, and they killed them by ANY means possible, including stampedeing hundreds of animals over cliffs and then only taking the choice cuts. People have to remember, that thec Plains Indians were NOT the stewards some try to portray them as. Also it has to be remembered that Buffalo east of the Mississippi were exterminated by 1832. Were diseases partially responsible, yes! My belief however is that some or many of the folks that are saying that humans could not have caused the reduction in numbers, simply do not want to openly review the evidence. Does anyone really know how many buffalo were left on the Plains, after the Civil War? Does anyone really know how many buffalo tongues were shipped to Eastern Markets after thev Trans Continetal Railway came into existance? And NO I am NOT going to call them Bison, because they have been called Buffao since 1754, and having worked with them at the Ft. Worth Zoo for about 15 years, visitors of EVERY nationality called them Buffalo when they saw them. How does anyone actually KNOW that buffalo numbers were that high at any time? They don't, it has always been an ESTIMATE! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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It’s no big deal, but the initial contention was that humans were related to most extinctions since the Dino’s. 98% of all species are now extinct. The vast majority occurred pre humanity. That was aimed at the initial commentary on the thread, I think by Crazyhorse. You then stated that bison were hunted to extinction and presented your article from the past, which was scientific orthodoxy until relatively recently. I remembered Lane commenting on it and reading something about the bison issue in some journal from a couple years ago. My comment to you was meant to state that your older article did not have the new evidence on the role of disease in killing bison off, which was considerable; and neglected the role of agriculture in preventing a natural reestablishment of the species. In fact, the older version orthodoxy was that hunting killed of the bison... not really. Bison were reduced through multiple factors, of which if any one of them were removed, they might have not dropped so badly and recovered on their own. When someone starts out the argument that market gunning killed off the bison and the corollary of “genocide of the Indians as government policy” killing the bison off, its a fallacious argument. Given how folks stated that hunting killed all these species an attempt to argue that mankind’s actions did it seems a bit of a switch in tone. Mankind’s direct actions (ie deliberate attempts to get rid of or kill) did not cause extinction of any species with reasonable range. Most extinctions occurred by accident, especially in species that were relatively localized. This is a common thread of extinction events... a geographically localized species killed off by a more adapted species moving in and disrupting their normal situation. For purposes of a hunting discussion, the passenger pigeon was not exterminated by over hunting. It’s not a hunting issue. Removal of the central boreal forests prevented breeding, and then it was a matter of time even absent a single shotgun. If one wants to make the argument that people exterminate other species by just existing, fine, but don’t get on hunting. If anything, hunting preserved many species past the point of expected extinction. The Aurochs were preserved in Poland into relative recency by the polish kings wanting to hunt them... they had been exterminated in other areas by the farming and replacement with cattle. I won’t argue that man has played a role in many extinctions in the last several hundred years, but the role hunting, even market gunning played was minor compared to other human effects related to agriculture, introduction of non native species- both accidentally and deliberate, and more recently, pollution. Like in Africa today, what is harming the various species of megafauna is not the Hunter with his rifle, but rather the wholesale loss of habitat that results in a species being reduced to the point where we can strangle them off by shooting them. Frankly, a hunter shooting elephants even a la commercial ivory shooting would not cause the problems we have if there was enough space that had elephants in it to allow biodiversity enough to exist to revive the population once they have been cut down in population density enough to make hunting them for ivory so low success that it is not practical to make a profit. As to expertise, my undergrad degree was biology with an area of concentration in wildlife management. Part of why I responded as I did was that you seemed to be supporting the idea that hunting can cause a species to go extinct, when it is actually probably a non factor in that once a species is isolated into a small niche habitat, there are thousands of small events that will wipe them out, it’s just a question of which hits first, unless active intervention is used (like taking a breeding population of fish to live a small hatchery and being raised as chattel until one can ensure enough space to successfully reintroduce them. I’ve not studied desert sheep much, but I’m willing to wager without active intervention (by hunters at this point) even now they are a limited species that will go extinct in the abscence of hell regardless of wether they are ever hunted; and the preservationists will not contribute enough on an ongoing basis in the abscence of a group like hunters who need a surplus of animals to keep that eventual extinction from occurring. I don’t think you disagree too much with this, but the anti crowd wants to say it was a hunter...the dodo was doomed before the first sailor decided it was easy meat. | |||
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The bottom line is that even with a 6 million animal error factored in...hunters still couldn’t have even come close to the 60 million mark. There are a lot of powder and shot trade records to make a highly educated estimate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Everyone is entitled to believe as they wish, I am not arguing that point, but how accurate is the 60 million animal estimation, and what time frame???? From Seton's writings the 60 million plus estimation was from when Europeans first came to North America. No one, and I mean No One, during the 18th. or 19th. Centuries, took a census of the actual numbers pof Buffalo on the North American continent! No one has any realistic idea of the actual effect the Plains Indian tribes had on the numbers of Buffalo and other animals, because too many folks over look or do not understand that the various tribes/bands of Plains Indians did not have or develop a "Horse Culture" until after the Spanish brought horses to the New World in the 1500's, and then it took them 200 years plus to become masters of the horse and proficient in hunting from horseback. 60 million animals might be a reasonable estimate, pre the exploration of the Spanish, but what happened between the 1500's and the mid 1800's to those numbers. People have to remember that both Indians and Whites killed buffalo year round, by any method availabe, and when the Civil War was over and the Indian Wars began, whites were encouraged to kill every buffalo they saw, to help subdue/eradicate t6he Indians. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Yes I will: It is just what you have TWICE repeated what it is: SHOOTING behind a fence and which a good number of us abhor! To compare Rhino programs with common hunts is similar to a comparison between apples and oranges; Rhino are not marketed like other common ranched game. When one has to be culled it requires no amount of legalities to be cleared before it can be offered to the public, or is that not true? Would you care to compare values of such shoots, proceeds of which by and large, are plowed back into the program in order to sustain the project? It certainly won't come from the anti-hunting crowd who seem to be reluctant to put money in their mouths. Would you care to tell us know how many Rhino are sold/killed annually compared to farm-bred Lions? And when one does get shot and becomes public news, how quickly the shit hits the fan because it "was not allowed to die peacefully of old age". You do seem to have the knack of twisting words. Maybe you spent too much of your time at the Zoo and are comparing the life cycle of caged animals to those living in a natural state. | |||
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There is one school of thought that the Northern White Rhinoceros was a separate species to the Southern White Rhinoceros, but the conventional wisdom at this point is that they were different SUBspecies. This is my belief, and it does matter. Probably more so for the Black Rhinoceros, which is a different genus. There is much gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands at the death of Sudan, and I do believe that irregardless of any genetic material that may have been preserved, and the surviving females, the subspecies will be effectively extinct with the passing of those cows. My point is, THIS DID NOT HAPPEN THIS WEEK when Sudan died. It happened, really, decades ago, and since habitat loss caused separation of the southern Sudanese and northern Congolese populations, the writing was on the wall. I visited the Nimule National Park in Sudan in 1983 and Garamba in (then) Zaire in 1985, and even back then, in neither park did I see a Northern White Rhino. I am arguing that the preservation of a subspecies of an endangered species for some sort of "biological aesthetics" is counter-productive to the survival of that species. If the Northern and Southern White Rhinos had been amalgamated in protected areas to the south thirty or forty years ago, C s cottoni would have disappeared then. As it is, it's disappearing now. The only real difference is that C s simum would have gotten a good jolt of genetic diversity back then, and that is always a good thing. What is done is done, but have we learned anything? Some models today postulate five subspecies of Black Rhinoceros, others accept six, and possibly the most common says there are eight. The only common denominator is that three of them are ALREADY EXTINCT. So, today, with the species being critically endangered, do we really NEED a Chobe Black Rhinoceros? Do we really NEED a Uganda Black Rhinoceros? Or, do we need to start thinking of amalgamating all of the subspecies to conserve the species? There is a lot more to this than just the dewey-eyed, Facebook-level commiserations. | |||
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Fulvio, some folks could and would try to justify it and would be willing to pay the money for the opportunity. Whether you want to grasp the concept or not, "Canned Hunting" is here to stay and it is highly probable that in the not real distant future "Canned Hunting" maybe the ONLY form of hunting that will exist. Addendum: Fulvio I have been an active hunter for 50 years and have watched first hand the changing attitudes of both hunters and no-hunters and the Piublic in general's attitudes toward hunting and guns and I think it is only going to deteriorate further. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Y'all can argue about bison all you want, twist and turn any direction you want......oh look a squirrel......the typical AR thing! But the thing that hunters AND hunting organizations must take away from this is. Not hunting them, CLOSING HUNTING, killed the northern white rhino!!!!!! The NGOs didn't protect them, the greentards, didn't protect them, born free didn't protect them, the HSUS didn't protect them, a rhino horn ban didn't protect them, a trophy import ban didn't protect them. Hunters as conservationists have protected many species, bison, Rocky mountain elk, Turkey's, bontebok, black wildebeest, similar Oryx, drama gazelles, axis deer quite a few of them on those awful Texas high fence ranches and others like them in south Africa so many of you deplore. The message is right there for us, grab it and run. You sci and DSC people take it! Go! Call press conferences, spend our money!
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For sure and especially if hunters don't want to face the facts that the anti-hunting community is winning and winning by a large margin. Fresh instance of the collared elephant saga is going to start making the headlines in the next few days, mark my words and thanks can be handed out to the unscrupulous hunters that allowed themselves to be taken over by the emotions of shooting what they thought was a 100 pound specimen. What does it boil down to: Ethics or lack thereof and the BS phrase regarding the legal side of doing things at the expense of conservation and all the other crap about feeding the starving multitudes. BTW Crazy, I haven't exactly been sucking my thumb for the last 50 years either - the difference between hunting experiences may be determined by our different geographical areas. | |||
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So none of this work has been published and peer reviewed yet? BTW, I failed to mention that in my previous searches I did find lots of Derr's other research, but it mostly all centered on how much cattle DNA today's surving bison herds had in them. Oh, an color me very skeptical of this part: Statistics based on historical data on USA industries calculating the amount of powder and shot that could have possibly been used... 1. It doesn't take into account imported powders/shot brought here by foreign ships. 2. I'm guessing record keeping by the "USA industries" of the time was somewhat haphazard. 3. It didn't take into account the arrows and spears the natives used to kill millions of bisons. (see articles below to verify that) Now, here is something I found today that was written by someone who actually lived through much of that era. It's a lot of reading, but it sure is interesting since he recounts journals and other pertinent info from actual bison hunters, trading companies, etc. with REAL data and not computer mock-ups. In the many passages I read, he never even mentions disease as the major factor. SMITHSONIAN, INSTITUTION. UNITED STATES NATIONAL MUSEUM. THE EXTERMINATION OF THE AMERICAN BISON. BY WILLIAM T. HORNADAY, Superintendent of the National Zoological Park, From the Report of the National Museum, 1886-'87, pages 369-548, and plates I-XXII. WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE. 1889. VIII. Value of the Buffalo to Man [URL=http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/consrv:@field(DOCID+@lit(amrvrvr02div16)))): UTILIZATION OF THE BUFFALO BY WHITE MEN. The Extermination of the American Bison: a machine-readable transcription. I. Causes of the Extermination [URL=http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/consrv:@field(DOCID+@lit(amrvrvr02div21))  ):1. The Period of Desultory Destruction, from 1730 to 1830. ):%5B/URL" target="_blank"> 2. The Period of Systematic Slaughter, from 1830 to 1838. [URL=http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/consrv:@field(DOCID+@lit(amrvrvr02div25)) ):P.S. The links came out goofy but they seem to work. Also, this is my last message on this topic sicne we're now going in circles in the wrong forum section. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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At last something we can agree on, except that those that have spent most of their hunting career if Africa, look down on those that have mainly or only hunted in America! Don't believe it, just look back thru these discussions and hunters who mainly hunt Africa, in most if not all cases concentrate on the issue of Ethical Behavior. With most or the majority of those that mainly or only hunt in America, are more concerned with hunters simply obeying the written regulations! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Not at all, we just have a wider variety and quantity of game and our regulations are often more stringent. We look down on nobody, in fact we would be on the learning side of the equation if we were to come over to the USA to hunt some of your species. Resident hunters for example have the possibility to shoot a limited variety of species and may hunt multiple times during the course of the hunting season; quite different I believe to that of the USA (drawing tags, limitation to areas in which to hunt, limitation on days in which to hunt, etc.) Overall, the passionate resident hunter in Africa tends to spend more hunting days in the wild than does an American on his own turf. | |||
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Damn, we don't have a flipping chance.........still arguing about American bison..... When closing hunting in Kenya is responsible for the extinction of this group of northern white rhino....... Finally our chance and the icons of African hunting are talking about American bison..........whining about who has the highest ethics........ Yep hunting hasn't got a chance. The single best opportunity for us, we, to be shouting and screaming about hunting as conservation and arguing about passenger pigeons and bison . | |||
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JTEX: The observation of Kenya closing to hunting, and this race coming to the precepts is of great value to what happened. | |||
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