quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:


Very possibly...I don't know. But maybe that turned out to be a good thing for me....I'd rather hunt buffalo that run from humans on sight (like the game I am used to hunting at home) than walk up to them in an open field. That would be rather anticlimactic.

Canuck

Maybe you need a more innovative PH. Maybe an African resident PH next time.

Please don't get insulting just because you don't have the solution to what I asked. I don't want to get into the middle of any fights.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
Interesting. I see that in videos too. It was certainly not my experience. The buffalo in both LA1 and LU5 in the Selous were VERY spooky. You would not be likely to walk up on those buff in the open.

Don_G and I hunted buffalo every single day of the 16 we had to hunt. The last 5 of those days were stalking with a bow. I never would have gotten a 20 yard shot on a good bull on any of those days.

I guess the difference would be that almost all the buff we hunted were in herds.

Africa is a big continent and hunting conditions vary significantly between areas and within areas during the season. That would also likely account for some difference in difficulty in getting really close.

Cheers,
Canuck

This was a herd of approx a hundred buffalo, could have been twice that number.

They were not "tame", they were very "spooky" as well.

We did approach them in the open. And the buffalo could see us some of the time. We also approached on foot. Just the PH and I as more people would have made the technique much harder. The wind of course was right. In our faces and blowing from the buffalo to us.

Try again. It is necessary to think laterally.

Apparently you have a bee in your bonnet and just have an interest in arguing with me and not discussing the issue.

I read your posts as written. What else should I make assumptions about?

We are clearly both speaking from very limited experience on this. I have made that clear in my posts.

The fields where we found buffalo were short grass or burnt off...no chance to hide in plain sight for the most part.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:


Very possibly...I don't know. But maybe that turned out to be a good thing for me....I'd rather hunt buffalo that run from humans on sight (like the game I am used to hunting at home) than walk up to them in an open field. That would be rather anticlimactic.

Canuck

Maybe you need a more innovative PH. Maybe an African resident PH next time.

Please don't get insulting just because you don't have the solution to what I asked.

Maybe you need to start thinking literally instead of laterally....or maybe just type something like that when you actually KNOW what you are talking about......My PHs were both African and both know their stuff. I was quite impressed.

Why is it that you feel the need to try and pick a scrap with me? Still dissatisfied with anyone with a "Moderator" under their name?

Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:


Apparently you have a bee in your bonnet and just have an interest in arguing with me and not discussing the issue.

I read your posts as written. What else should I make assumptions about?

We are clearly both speaking from very limited experience on this. I have made that clear in my posts.

The fields where we found buffalo were short grass or burnt off...no chance to hide in plain sight for the most part.

I wrote everything that was needed. I am not interested in an argument. If you don't know the solution to the problem, just give up and let someone else have a try.

We proved we could approach buffalo to reasonable range in the open. And this Zimbabwean resident PH does it quite a lot.

quote:

We proved we could approach buffalo to reasonable range in the open. And this Zimbabwean resident PH does it quite a lot.

My Zimbabwean PH's both complained about the shifty Selous wind a fair bit.

I'd say close to 100% of efforts that failed were because we were winded. The wind would shift constantly.

I did take 1 buff in an open field. Took us about 4 hours. Leopard crawled, butt scooted, etc for more than 500 metres. Could not get closer than 60 metres to those buff do to lack of cover (clumps of unburnt grass, occassional bush etc), and came close to losing them a few times with the shifty wind. Ended up taking a 60 yard shot at very last light.

Most of our hunting was in pretty dense bush, with very thick and dry (crunchy) leaves on the ground. Hunting herds in this is very difficult and is what I was referring to above. Dagga boys seemed much easier to get in on, from the perspective that you were a lot more likely to get a shot opportunity (ie. less likely to get busted by cows on the way in and around the herd in the thick cover).

PS: You said:

quote:

The field was maybe 800 metres long to where the buffalo were feeding. The only approach was in the open.
Yet we got to within 60 metres of the first buffalo! Completely approaching them in the open, and they could see us?

And then you make a condescending remark (presumably to make me look stupid)..

quote:

Try again. It is necessary to think laterally.

..because I said something about walking up to them in a field (which is pretty much exactly what you said).

How is that not argumentative?

And your thinly veiled shots about JJHACK, who was not my PH in Tanzania, despite the gratuitous addition of a winky graemlin, is you not trying to pick a scrap??

Excuse me if this is putting words in your mouth here, but I do find it interesting though, that because you "proved that you could approach buffalo to reasonable range in the open", the implication is that it would be reasonable to do it with all cape buffalo in all environments (or even most cape buffalo in most environtments in East Africa). You proved you could approach those buffalo under those conditions. Maybe that's more common than not? My point was that conditions do vary significantly between and within areas and over time. I don't think one can assume much about the approachability of buffalo as a strict rule. I will say that if conditions and situations allow, approaching a buffalo to within 20 meters is a lot more fun than otherwise. But if the conditions are not conducive to getting close, I would take the best shot I could rather than go home empty handed. Shooting buffalo in real hunting situations, whether 20 or 100 yards (or whatever) is still hunting IMHO, and not sniping. Whacking them at long distance from beside the hunting truck would probably qualify as sniping though.

Canuck

BobS,

Don't limit yourself...Before my first trip I practiced shots from 10 to 200 yards and everywhere in between.

You never know where and when you ideal Buff might show himself, so be ready for whatever situation that might arise.

Weapon familiarity in terms of handling and ballistics will pay big dividends!

Good luck!

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

We proved we could approach buffalo to reasonable range in the open. And this Zimbabwean resident PH does it quite a lot.

My Zimbabwean PH's both complained about the shifty Selous wind a fair bit.

I'd say close to 100% of efforts that failed were because we were winded. The wind would shift constantly.

I did take 1 buff in an open field. Took us about 4 hours. Leopard crawled, butt scooted, etc for more than 500 metres. Could not get closer than 60 metres to those buff do to lack of cover (clumps of unburnt grass, occassional bush etc), and came close to losing them a few times with the shifty wind. Ended up taking a 60 yard shot at very last light.

Most of our hunting was in pretty dense bush, with very thick and dry (crunchy) leaves on the ground. Hunting herds in this is very difficult and is what I was referring to above. Dagga boys seemed much easier to get in on, from the perspective that you were a lot more likely to get a shot opportunity (ie. less likely to get busted by cows on the way in and around the herd in the thick cover).

PS: You said:

quote:

The field was maybe 800 metres long to where the buffalo were feeding. The only approach was in the open.
Yet we got to within 60 metres of the first buffalo! Completely approaching them in the open, and they could see us?

And then you make a condescending remark (presumably to make me look stupid)..

quote:

Try again. It is necessary to think laterally.

..because I said something about walking up to them in a field (which is pretty much exactly what you said).

How is that not argumentative?

And your thinly veiled shots about JJHACK, who was not my PH in Tanzania, despite the gratuitous addition of a winky graemlin, is you not trying to pick a scrap??

Excuse me if this is putting words in your mouth here, but I do find it interesting though, that because you "proved that you could approach buffalo to reasonable range in the open", the implication is that it would be reasonable to do it with all cape buffalo in all environments (or even most cape buffalo in most environtments in East Africa). You proved you could approach those buffalo under those conditions. Maybe that's more common than not? My point was that conditions do vary significantly between and within areas and over time. I don't think one can assume much about the approachability of buffalo as a strict rule. I will say that if conditions and situations allow, approaching a buffalo to within 20 meters is a lot more fun than otherwise. But if the conditions are not conducive to getting close, I would take the best shot I could rather than go home empty handed. Shooting buffalo in real hunting situations, whether 20 or 100 yards (or whatever) is still hunting IMHO, and not sniping. Whacking them at long distance from beside the hunting truck would probably qualify as sniping though.

Canuck

Canuck,

I am not an expert.

Someone who thinks they are an "expert" in my opinion is someone who is no longer prepared to learn.

Your posts are just trying to start an argument.

quote:

Excuse me if this is putting words in your mouth here ....

No I don't excuse you at all. Instead of trying to put your words into "my mouth" if you think that say it yourself. Because what you wrote was idiotic about "reasonable to do it with all cape buffalo in all environments". How can you judge when you have absolutely no idea what I am talking about?

However this is a fair chance it would work anywhere where the conditions and placement of the buffalo was right.

My original question was not addressed to you. It was addressed to everyone who had any interest. If you do not want to know why bother?

I think it is better to ignore your attempts at starting arguments.

My question was also not "off topic" at all and perhaps hunters facing buffalo at longish ranges could learn by the technique that this PH used. Doubt it will work all the time, and especially will not work for long if hunters insist on blasting away with multiple shots. Buffalo that survive do learn if they are provided with ample evidence of the danger and the source of it.

It is not my technique. I intend to try it out on water buffalo one day as I think it may also work on them as well.


***


I'll give anyone who is truly interested a hint.

It has to do with camoflage. But what sort? Real tree? Military? Other?

Our "friend" Canuck also mentioned something in an earlier post which may give a hint.

Please, constructive replies would be nice.

PS My apologies to BobS for any disruption to his thread.

NitroX, the only bullshitter here is 500grains...............JJ

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
NitroX, the only bullshitter here is 500grains...............JJ

JJ, I think not! I think there are several BS posts in this thread. Indeed I think if one wanted to waste the time, one could find the same persons claiming shooting buff at long ranges, say over 200 metres was irresponsible! The wind will blow in another direction tommorrow again I guess.

As for 500grains opinions about hunting cape buffalo only from close range. Why not?

As I said I know an Aussie hunting guide who has hunted and guided a lot on water buff and scrub bulls. He ONLY was interested in hunting cape buff if we hunted them very close. In the end I got the hots for a cow elephant hunt in Zi instead of a Selous buff hunt 2x1 with him.

So is this guy a BSer too for having that opinion?

People should do whatever they want if it is safe and the shot can be performed. But lets not call sniping at 200 metres at buffalo dangerous?!

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I don't understand.

We are all aware of that...

Your sure to strike-out when you get your turn at bat surestrike! What do YOU think is the best shooting distance?

If you want to hunt Buffalo at reasonable didstace than shit can the shooting sticks and learn to shoot off hand.

Yu can quickly learn your ability and adjust distance accordingly.

What's with the 'I couldn't get close because it was in a herd' stuff? Why hunt a Buff in a herd? Is that why so many pictures posted are of younger soft bossed bulls?

NitroX, I did not understand the main drift of your posts, my mistake, sorry................JJ

quote:

I think it is better to ignore your attempts at starting arguments.

Give me a break.

Canuck

quote:

What's with the 'I couldn't get close because it was in a herd' stuff? Why hunt a Buff in a herd? Is that why so many pictures posted are of younger soft bossed bulls?

Mickey, In my case, I certainly didn't intend to hunt buffalo in herds. Don_G and I both had grand plans for tracking small groups of Daggaboys. But when you show up for your hunt and that's all there is, you make do...ie. you play with the hand you are dealt. According to some on this board, it is supposedly common for Selous buffalo to be in large herds with few bachelor groups??? I don't know if this is true, but it is consistent with what I saw.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

I think it is better to ignore your attempts at starting arguments.

Give me a break.

Canuck

Might I suggest some good reading for you: How To Win Friends and Influence People.

IMO I used to enjoy the majority of your posts, but for some time now, you come across as quite caustic. What happened?

quote:

Might I suggest some good reading for you: How To Win Friends and Influence People.

IMO I used to enjoy the majority of your posts, but for some time now, you come across as quite caustic. What happened?

I wholeheartedly disagree and don't understand in the least where this is coming from.

The only issues I have had is with 500grains (over a minor issue where I tried to make the point that he didn't have to be insulting to others in order to give his opinion) and now NitroX. There was also a little row with Superspeed, but I believe he completely misunderstood the tone of my posts.

Maybe you guys are reading something into my posts that isnt there, or vice versa, but it feels to me like these guys (including you perhaps, since you seem to be part of the same clique) have an issue with me. Maybe like you guys are trying to drag me into your issues with other moderators, or bait me into something that you can quote later as evidence that AR is falling apart. I don't get it.

Caustic is pretty much the opposite of me and I'd bet that most people would agree.

FWIW,
Canuck

quote:

I used to enjoy the majority of your posts, but for some time now, you come across as quite caustic.

I am on board with that point of view.

quote:

I tried to make the point that he didn't have to be insulting to others in order to give his opinion

Like this?

quote:

Originally posted by JJMiller:

NitroX, the only bullshitter here is 500grains...............JJ

Canuck

I have decided to not participate in this thread any further.

One day I will write up a story of that hunt and then anyone interested will have the answer.

PS One very smart fellow emailed me to ask me and had the main concept of what the technique was.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Your sure to strike-out when you get your turn at bat surestrike! What do YOU think is the best shooting distance?

I am afraid you wouldn't understand. You don't even know what a "strike" is in regards to hunting little boy.

Surestrike,
I doubt that a Tanzania concession is over hunted inasmuch as they all have a quota. Lions are more likely the reason buff are wild on those concessions. Lions sure rag on those Selous buff and it also makes the buff agressive. Buff are like any other animal, they can be shot at various ranges like deer, elk or whatever, so its good advise to be prepared for shots up to 200 yards, but get closer if you can.

Nitro X,
You pretty clear who your picking a fight with, but considering you only have one buff under your belt and yet your the worlds greatest stalker, your pretty much BS IMO.

At any rate, You have lied about me too many times and you cannot prove or back up a single lie, but then on the internet and at long distance you don't have to, you can say whatever you want and get away with it, but isn't that a cowardly approach? I don't want to fight with you and I never attack you, so lets just not post to each other, you go your way and I'll go mine.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I don't understand.

We are all aware of that...

I've never hunted Cape Buffalo, but when I do I want to get as close as possible. When I do I prefer getting closer over bigger horns.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Nitro X,
You pretty clear who your picking a fight with, but considering you only have one buff under your belt and yet your the worlds greatest stalker, your pretty much BS IMO.

At any rate, You have lied about me too many times and you cannot prove or back up a single lie, but then on the internet and at long distance you don't have to, you can say whatever you want and get away with it, but isn't that a cowardly approach? I don't want to fight with you and I never attack you, so lets just not post to each other, you go your way and I'll go mine.

Ray Atkinson,

My guess is you are now pretty much a "protected species" on AR.

But at least what I say I have done, I have actually done.

Anyone who has been around here for long enough has made their own minds up.

As for "cowardly" and internet, I guess that statement works both ways.

Enough said. Bye.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Canuck

I have decided to not participate in this thread any further.

One day I will write up a story of that hunt and then anyone interested will have the answer.

PS One very smart fellow emailed me to ask me and had the main concept of what the technique was.

OK Nitro. Your last post here encouraged me to go back and re-read, and then read again all of our posts to each other on this thread. And, as a result, I am prepared to extend to you my humble apologies. I am still not sure that you are not culpable in this, but I can see a scenario that has you mainly in the right here.

When you posted this:

quote:

Yet we got to within 60 metres of the first buffalo! Completely approaching them in the open, and they could see us.

How did we do it?

I took the "How did we do it"" comment to be a sarcastic slap at anyone that couldn't easily walk up to within 60 meters of buffalo. Since I had just posted about shooting buff at 60 meters it seemed likely the comment was directed mostly at me.

I did NOT interpret your post to be an sincere question looking for an actual answer.

If I misinterpreted, that is what I am sorry about as it is what set the tone for my answers.

Now, please keep in mind that the reason I jumped to that conclusion is because you had just posted a reply (that has subsequently disappeared) that was questioning my general comment to everyone that "If that's your thing, fine...thats cool and good on ya. But don't push that opinion on others just because its yours.", in which you assumed it was directed toward 500grains and then went on to defend his post/opinion and state that there were "some BS'ers on this thread" (which seemed directed at me - since you had quoted me from my post - and possibly others too). That post set me off a bit, and I subsequently read the sarcasm/argumentative tone from it into your very next post which was the one that I reference above (the 'Question'). (I am curious why you deleted that post though??....it was found immediately between my first post on this thread and what is now your first post on this thread.)

It is also the reason I read a condescending tone into your comment "Try again. It is necessary to think laterally.". I assumed you were mocking my intelligence for some reason.

Then your posts about having an non-African resident PH....what would make you assume that I used a PH that was not a resident of Africa? I assumed you meant JJHACK, who was a PH in camp on my two hunts in RSA and who is a resident of the USA (ie. not Africa). I think that was a fair assumption from my perspective, but maybe you meant that a PH should be a resident of the country you are hunting in???? I don't know though....you said "African resident" and its meaning seems pretty clear to me.

Either way, provided you agree, consider the hatchet buried with my apologies.

So, assuming that your scenario poses a sincere question, here is my sincere answer...

I would venture that you bent yourselves over to take the shape of buffalo (or at least a quadruped), while stalking through areas that you could be seen by the other buffalo. We did that on a couple occassions and as long as you weren't real close, it seemed to work. It works great on mountain sheep in open country too.

The other tactic that worked for me was to slowly walk in a very straight line towards the buffalo. They don't see this movement well, and don't seem to notice you getting gradually larger as you get closer. This works on a lot of game, again provided that you aren't in breath smelling distance.

And of course, there is the tried and true technique of taking cover with you. Utilizing cut-off brush to conceal your shape, while moving slowly towards the buffalo. We did not try this in Tanz, but it has worked for me in the past while bowhunting at home.

Cheers,
Canuck

Mickey 1,it is really a thrill to shoot offhand.I have made this my style of hunting.The only problem is it may be difficult to find some place that will let you practice this.The shooting clubs here allow only shooting from the bench.

Shootaway,
I sure believe that shooting off hand is the best way to learn to be a good shot, if one can shoot off hand then he can about handle any situation. I never leave a practice session, bench session, or load testing session with doing some off hand shooting. I cannot for some reason shoot well off sticks like most folks can. It is a shame that you cannot shoot off hand at your range.

Gentleman, I posted what I thought was a simple question by a novice hunter to Africa. A few members gave advise and comments on the question at hand and I appreciate that. I am taking your advise under consideration and that is what this site is great for. Unfortunatly some have taken the opportunity to get on thier soap boxes and continue rehashing things and stirring the pot on old information that no one cares about any more. This is the greatest site on the webb for getting first hand advice and information and I thank Saeed for that and the members who really care about helping other hunters. How ever I can see that many new prospective African hunters can be very apprehensive at posting because of the few who seem to hijack threads for their own purposes. I will have many questions in the next year as I get ready and research my up coming hunt. I know everyone has an opinion on how something should be done and I welcome that opinion. State it and I will make up my own mind the advise to take and the advise to reject. Again thank you to the members who gave their take on my question.

BobS,

It is your hunt and shoot from whatever distance makes the hunt special for you. As long as you don't get so close that you endanger lives who am I to care. If you do restrict your shots to close range you may have to for go a shot at a really awesome animal. Just go see what happens and shoot when you feel good about it. The idea is to have fun!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Nitro X,
You pretty clear who your picking a fight with, but considering you only have one buff under your belt and yet your the worlds greatest stalker, your pretty much BS IMO.

At any rate, You have lied about me too many times and you cannot prove or back up a single lie, but then on the internet and at long distance you don't have to, you can say whatever you want and get away with it, but isn't that a cowardly approach? I don't want to fight with you and I never attack you, so lets just not post to each other, you go your way and I'll go mine.

Ray Atkinson,

My guess is you are now pretty much a "protected species" on AR.

But at least what I say I have done, I have actually done.

Anyone who has been around here for long enough has made their own minds up.

As for "cowardly" and internet, I guess that statement works both ways.

Enough said. Bye.

This is another load of bullshit from you.

No one is "protected" on AR.

You, of all people, have been stretching the limits on a number of occasions. The last time you and a number of others did THEY got banned, and you did not - I thought I wll give you one final chance. I made it absolutely clear that it was my mistake that I let you back when you got banned previously.

I know who the rest of the trouble makers are - and you are one of them.

So please stop trying to stretch my patience further.

When you get canned this time it is going to be permanent.

The same goes to those I have warned previously, on numerous occasions, privately.

I just wonder why you and the rest of your cronies do not get up to this sort of bullshit on your own site?

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

Yet we got to within 60 metres of the first buffalo! Completely approaching them in the open, and they could see us.

How did we do it?

I took the "How did we do it"" comment to be a sarcastic slap at anyone that couldn't easily walk up to within 60 meters of buffalo. Since I had just posted about shooting buff at 60 meters it seemed likely the comment was directed mostly at me.

I did NOT interpret your post to be an sincere question looking for an actual answer.

If I misinterpreted, that is what I am sorry about as it is what set the tone for my answers.

No it was a question to try to get a discussion going. We did approach the buffalo from out in the open. It was not derogatory on anyone else.

How did we do it?

WE USED BLACK RAIN UMBRELLAS

quote:

I would venture that you bent yourselves over to take the shape of buffalo (or at least a quadruped), while stalking through areas that you could be seen by the other buffalo. We did that on a couple occassions and as long as you weren't real close, it seemed to work. It works great on mountain sheep in open country too.

The other tactic that worked for me was to slowly walk in a very straight line towards the buffalo. They don't see this movement well, and don't seem to notice you getting gradually larger as you get closer. This works on a lot of game, again provided that you aren't in breath smelling distance.

And of course, there is the tried and true technique of taking cover with you. Utilizing cut-off brush to conceal your shape, while moving slowly towards the buffalo. We did not try this in Tanz, but it has worked for me in the past while bowhunting at home.

Sort of, we moved in a bobbing fashion not in a straight line, but meandering. Bent over at the waist and usually a slight bobbing motion.

The PH would single us to stop from time to time.

Unfortunately the technique worked so well, we convinced a group of cows to stay out in the open and continual feeding. They could see us and relaxed and stopped heading off into the jesse. Cutting us off from the main herd and the bull.

We also had three absolutely beautiful kudu walk within 20 yards of us completely unaware of us.

A magical hunt that did not score anything but was very rememberable.

Don't know if it would work in Tanz, don't see why not? I have no doubt it doesn't always work.

What caliber umbrella does one use for that?

Does SCI have a record category for Umbrella Hunting yet?

Boy, and I thought the bow hunters took some abuse here. Looks like they have someone to pick on now!

NitroX,

It has worked in Tanz. Eric Pasanisi and John Ormiston did just what you are describing once. I was told by John that it got them smack into the middle of a spread out herd.

When they dropped the umbrellas and started shooting, all hell broke loose! It sure sounded like fun to me!

Saeed,

Why not just ignore the provocations, baiting, cat-fighting, name calling and other nonsense that goes on around here from time to time? Why permit yourself to be provoked?

Some posters are rude or offensive from the get-go, and others are too quick to attack, too ready to perceive an insult (even where none exists), too quick to react by shooting from the hip or too thin skinned generally. Some posters apparently just don't like each other. That's their prerogative, I suppose, but for them to carry on in thread after thread does become rather tiresome.

At worst, such behavior reflects very poorly on the participants and is somewhat disruptive. At best, at least for some apparently, it is an entertaining soap opera. Personally, I consider that my life is far too short to pay the least bit of attention to such nonsense.

Frankly, I find that the know-nothing trolls are more of a nuisance. At least the squabblers sometimes post useful information. So, I don't think I would get so worked up about the squabbling if I were you.

quote:

Frankly, I find that the know-nothing trolls are more of a nuisance.

What he said!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
What caliber umbrella does one use for that?

Does SCI have a record category for Umbrella Hunting yet?

Boy, and I thought the bow hunters took some abuse here. Looks like they have someone to pick on now!

Canuck mentioned "bison" I think. The Indians used to wear a bison "rug" to approach bison. Same technique, but an umbrella is much easier to carry! My guess is if conditions were favourable buff could be approached to about 50-60 metres in the open. At least we were able to do so.

Umbrellas? That is what I meant by lateral thinking!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
It has worked in Tanz. Eric Pasanisi and John Ormiston did just what you are describing once. I was told by John that it got them smack into the middle of a spread out herd.

When they dropped the umbrellas and started shooting, all hell broke loose! It sure sounded like fun to me!

Good to know!

One day I want to try it on water buffalo as well.

I've used the same trick a few times.....

To everyone who posted here on the subject other than "shooting distance" who believe they are in some way a judge on this forum or whose oppinion they believe holds some significance.Aside from the owner of this site,Who cares what YOU think.

Have used the umbrella trick, only using tan ones, on antelope here in Colorado. Surprised the heck out of me that it worked so well. Grandson, using a T/C Contender in 7-30 Waters, 120gr Nosler BTs, got his first big game animal when we tried it.
Proud? You bet.