The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Is hunting large game ranches in South Africa fair chase?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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In South Africa most hunting is on large game ranches (~40,000 acres, etc.). The game is closely managed within high fences. Is that fair chase in your opinion? Regards, AIU | ||
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 I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf.... DRSS | |||
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I'm not going to be the last word on this, but if you own a mountain range I'm of the opinion that hunting on the property is fair chase. | |||
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As long as you do not charge for the range. | |||
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You surely have heard the comparison...go catch the 10lb largemouth in the farmer's 10acre pond. A fair comparison.Though you'll see a lot of game on a big SA ranch...go hunt a specific species or good head on 40,000 acres. Bob DRSS DSC SCI NRA & ISRA | |||
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Depends (and no that is not my underwear brand)  If the game is accustomed to trucks driving by and is as tame as the game in Kruger, then it is not fair chase. On the other hand if the game sees a truck and disappears, then it is fair chase no matter how big the property or how high the fences. I grew up hunting deer on my family's 1600 acre cattle ranch, don't tell me that wasn't fair chase! Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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No, that simple. Once you high fence it kills any chance of qualifying as fair chase IMHO. You can't even enter a deer in BC if it is killed in a high fenced property for that very reason. Kalahari Lion (Bots 07)  | |||
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I hunted a high fenced property in Namibia. I was told by the property owner it was the law. The surrounding properties were sheep and cattle ranches and they couldn't have wild game just wandering around. The place was huge. Delaware may have been slightly bigger. But it was definitely larger than Rhode Island. The fence seemed to be the bare minimum he needed to put up to comply with the law. On purpose, as he bordered state land and he wnated those animals to move in. He confided in me that he could shoot every kudu bull he had on the place; as long as he had the cows vagrant bulls would wander in, lay their horns back along their backs, and jump the through the fence. Leopards would zip across those fences like nobody's business. When you drive 45 minutes to the gate, then another hour along the fence line and it's still the guy's property, just how bad are you supposed to feel about shooting something on it? | |||
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I don't know if it's the law because I hunted a low fenced cattle ranch in Namibia in 2008 and the surrounding farms (ranches) were also low fenced. I took a huge Burchell's stallion off it. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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That's what the guy told me. And I, by the by, took a mountain zebra. Anyway, there was no doubt you'd run a huge risk of dying of of thirst if you got lost at the far reaches of the ranch. I don't want to pass off any bad info. But that piece of ranch land was big. | |||
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I would think that a place big enough to get lost on and subsequently die of thirst would qualify as a "fair chase" kind of place. For me, densly covered hunting ground of a few hundred acres could qualify as fair chase for some types of hunting. For a wide open area, I would want several thousand acres. | |||
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I've hunted on islands I could have shot across. This was no where near as small. | |||
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Depends on the species as well as the size of the Ranch and the hunting style. Territorial species stay within 100 or 200 acres anyway. Buffalo roam for miles. Hunting from a truck on a 500,000 acre ranch is not fair chase. Stalking an Nyala on foot in dense bush is fair chase on 1000 acres. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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I don't pretend to be an expert. It's just my experience that it's possible for one guy to own enough land to make hunting complicated. | |||
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Yes SSR | |||
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I believe it can be fair chase provided the fenced area exceeds the natural range for that particular type of animal, and also is comprised of the same terrain the animal would normaly be found in. The population of the particular species being persued should also be self sustaining. Yes it's cocked, and it has bullets too!!! | |||
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yes this high fence nonsense on a property of 40k acres is just that | |||
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What I assumed in my answer is a true game proof high fence designed to keep animals captive. Which by definition you are messing with natural movement for an economical reason. A place as large as described above I would think is economically impossible to high fence. If a place exist which is as big as described, is high fenced, does not introduce/import animals, breed, feed them etc I can go with high fenced as fair chase. I just don't know of any such place and those who do high fence are also importing/exporting and breeding which negates fair chase. Just my opinion. I hate what high fencing has done to whitetail hunting here in Texas. In the chase for inches we now have breed, feed and slaughter hunting to the highest bidder. We are just feeding anti-hunting by supporting this so called form of hunting. I am seeing it take root in Africa and it makes me want to cry. All the defenders of it have the same arguments I am hearing here like the place is big, the natural range is X etc. It is just a slippery slope that has to have a black or white answer IMHO. I also understand the advantages “game ranching” has for the species in cases where they are threatened and for the hunter by creating affordable hunts for those who otherwise could not afford it. Those factors weigh in favor of high fencing. But it is what it is. Kalahari Lion (Bots 07) | |||
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Many plains game hunts, especially for first-timers on a budget, are held on high-fenced 5,000-acre (not 40,000) game farms. That equals about 7.8 square miles, or an area equal to about 3 miles by 2.6 miles. Even with only 5,000 acres, if the place is covered with hills, canyons and thick vegetation, hunting there can be physically demanding. Hunting bushbuck, nyala and similar brush-loving species on such a place also can be fair chase. Unfortunately, 5,000 acres can produce only a limited number of trophy specimens of the larger antelope such as eland, kudu, waterbuck, gemsbok, nyala, etc., per year. The owners have a choice as the "harvest" approaches that limited number: they can turn customers away or they can shop their country's many wildlife auctions and buy "trophies" to release on a put-and-take, the-client-is-none-the-wiser basis. Guess which option some game farmers choose? So the question should be, is it fair chase -- no matter the size of the place you are hunting, and no matter whether you walk or drive and stalk -- to shoot a 60-inch kudu bull that was transported 300 miles across country in a stock trailer just so you could kill that poor beast? Bill Quimby | |||
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I was advised by a Namibian outfitter that cattle and wildebeest must be kept apart. I could be wrong but I'm assuming that would be for disease control. | |||
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Oh boy | ||
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I hunted both high and low fenced property in Namibia. The high fence area was just as CFS describes, HUGE. Animals went right through the fence as well. Animals were harder to get close to than any I've ever hunted, they were definately not tame. I don't know of anywhere in the USA where you can hunt that large of an area with just two hunters and a guide. It was amazing to be able to hunt an area bigger than an elk hunting zone in Idaho and have it all to ourselves. The low fence area was just as fun, but I thought the animals were acutally less wary of hunters. ----------------------------------------------------- Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. Proverbs 26-4 National Rifle Association Life Member | |||
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"Fair Chase" is a concept and cannot be defined by specific parameters. IMO if an animal has a resonable chance to elude his pursuers then it's certainly a "fair" hunt. It would be much simpler if the term "fair chase" was simply eliminated from the venacular and replaced with simple reality. Hunting occurs under two conditions; open range and closed range. That sums it up. Regardless of size of area or type of cover, etc, ad naseum, if there's a fence it's a closed range hunt and if there isn't it's open range hunting. | |||
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Me too. And I realize I'm coming across as inconsistent. I got on the lease I'm involved with just because it isn't fenced. We have Audad wandering onto the property, as we're not that far from Palo Duro canyon and they come down the river. If it isn't hunting, I'm not interested. but our lease is only 15,000 acres. Nothing like the 250,000 acres I hunted on in Namibia. | |||
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Not true. Deer or impala or whatever typically only range in an area of 200-500 acres. The fence has nothing to do with limiting their movements and typically in RSA is more to keep predators OUT. We are not talking about shooting animals in a pen, we are talking about areas that it takes you an hour or more to drive from one fence to the other and I can say from experience that you can hunt on foot all day long and never see a fence.. These animals have no idea that they are in an enclosure. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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So far as I know, the fences exist because the game ranchers want to keep their property - the game and in RSA the land owners own the game - on their property. The game is very valuable, and they don't want an expensive trophy Sable or Rhone bull to wander off and become the property of their neighbor, who then becomes the owner and who might quickly shoot it. In RSA some national or state parks fence the public property for the same reason. Moreover, it's hard to believe you can fence in a Cape buffalo, rhino or eland, or hardly any of these wild plains species - they are too strong to be fenced in. If they stay in an area, it's because they like it there, because there is food , water, cover, etc. - all amenities provided by the game ranchers. Of course it's free range, when the ranches are huge, just like large private ranches in the States. The issue IMO is akin the ethics of catching stocked trout vs. indigenous breeding trout. Those ranches providing consistent trophy quality hunts MUST be strocking the ranch with trophy replacements as they are harvested - trophies that are freely traded on the open market in RSA and other African countries. IS SHOOTING STOCKED TROPHIES FREE CHASE? For that matter is waiting for the buffalo to move from a national park onto huntable ground free chase? Your thoughts? Regards, AIU | |||
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Yes, it depends on the size and the species. But you can hunt fair chaise on fenced farms. Hunting plains game (selfsustaining populations) on >10000acres thick bush is definitly not unethical. @China Fleet Sailor There is a law to have the farm fenced for some species in namibia. | |||
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If it felt fair to you that's pretty much all that matters. | |||
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I figured there was some sort of law. | |||
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Just a few questions for you mate 1. how many hunts have you done in south Africa 2. how big was the property hunted ? 3. what method of hunting did you use ? "Buy land they have stopped making it"- Mark Twain | |||
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I would like to see the guys face who purchased that 60" kudu when it dissapears over the fence...you see, there is LEGAL requirements as to how the fence must be drawn. Hight and spacing of strands....and I can promise you, it keeps only a very few species "inside". A friend of mine once joked and said: " If you want to introduce Nyala or bushbuck to your area, then ask the Game Capture people to offload it on the neighbours property" Charl van Rooyen Owner Infinito Travel Group www.infinito-safaris.com charl@infinito-safaris.com Cell: +27 78 444 7661 Tel: +27 13 262 4077 Fax:+27 13 262 3845 Hereford Street 28A Groblersdal 0470 Limpopo R.S.A. "For the Infinite adventure" Plains Game Dangerous Game Bucket List Specialists Wing-Shooting In House Taxidermy Studio In House Dip and Pack Facility In House Shipping Service Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris Flight bookings "I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?" South Africa Tanzania Uganda | |||
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AMEN! Mad Dog | |||
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Precisely! I have tried hunting on farms in South Africa, where the hunt was a lot harder that some of the hunts I have had in open country in both Tanzania and Zimbabwe. So at the end of the day, you are the only person who should worry about what sort of hunting you do. If anyone else does not like the way you hunt, tough luck to them. | |||
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OK I will take the bait but before the flaming starts I am not critical in any way of those who chose to hunt high fences and as Saeed said the real question is whether it is fair to you. 1.zero and will not hunt SA. 2.Doesn't matter. It is enclosed to keep animals in and predators out. Species are traded like a commodity. Auctions are thriving. Selective killing for "management" is taking place. Breeding for more inches is common. Diet supplement. If any of those factors are present it just doesn't interest me and does not meet "my" fair chase standard. 3. On foot or it isn't fair chase anywhere. I am an equal oppertunity critic on this one. Shooting out of the truck isn't hunting. Kalahari Lion (Bots 07) | |||
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Well said ! Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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AIU, "Is shooting stocked trophies fair chase". I think fair chase refers to whether or not there is a reasonable expectation that the animal being pursued has a real chance of eluding the hunters during the hunt. I've hunted a number of places that were stocked or had been stocked at sometime and my expereince is that you definitely can have a fair chase hunt in these places. Stocked high fenced game ranches vary so much in size, game offerings, enviroment and just the overall experience offered that I don't think you can make a blanket statement about fair chase. I think each hunter has to make his own decision about what works for him or her. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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It's none of my business how someone else hunts. The distinction I draw for myself is if it is a a self sustaining population in a large area. That being said, neither of my two safaris have been behind a high fence. I had a PH at a show "offer" me a 60" kudu. How did he know it was 60"? That's how big it was when he bought it! No thanks! I know of a South African operation that consistently produces gold medal animals for everyone I know that has hunted there. How? It was explained to me that the owner cull hunts other areas and if he finds an exceptionally good animal he traps it and releases it onto his ranch. Not my gig! Put and take animals are not trophies to me. They are a purchased collectibles in my book. 405wcf | |||
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What is a challenging hunt for some people may be easy for others. Factors such as age and chronic health issues can necessitate hunting in a fashion that may be distasteful to young and fit hunters. That does not make it unethical. Hugh | |||
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My take on the fencing is that the fence is designed to keep 2 legged predators out. I watched Eland jump the high fence, Kudu go through it and bushbuck crawl underneath. Of course the 2 legged predators look for those same holes and put the snares there. Like someone said if you are happy go for it and do not worry what anyone else thinks. It is your hunt. Africa Bug " Embrace the bite , live for adventure " EJ Carter 2011 | |||
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640 acres makes a square mile. I'm no mathematician but isn't 40,000acres divided by 640 equal to 62.5 sq. miles. Many of us here in the USA hunt on 200 acre tracts. Russ 500,000 acres 781.25 sq. miles. What's not fair? How about the artificial water holes they set up in some of the very dry locations in southern Africa, Is that fair chase? Mike | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Is hunting large game ranches in South Africa fair chase?
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