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Originally posted by shakari:
Mate, if you've got a magic wand, just turn the clock back about 40 or 50 years & you'll have solved ALL of Africa's problems!

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Names like Madonna, Tom Sellick, George Strait are faces America knows and will listen to. There are a multitude of other athletes and celebs that are sportsman.

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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Names like Madonna, Tom Sellick, George Strait are faces America knows and will listen to. There are a multitude of other athletes and celebs that are sportsman.

Is Madonna a hunter?

George and Tom would be great!

And...like NRA had Heston help them get started...one of the above would be great for SCI or DSC.

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Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Names like Madonna, Tom Sellick, George Strait are faces America knows and will listen to. There are a multitude of other athletes and celebs that are sportsman.

Is Madonna a hunter?

George and Tom would be great!

And...like NRA had Heston help them get started...one of the above would be great for SCI or DSC.

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It is intuitively obvious to me, the same old efforts are NOT returning dividends. We all know the definition of insanity.

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Like I have previously stated, I think the problem with protests or lobby days or whatever they are called is simply the optics of it. It just looks bad for a bunch of "perceived" affluent American sport hunters trying to keep their passion for killing "endangered animals" alive.

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As was stated elsewhere, we will never win over popular opinion, our only hope is appealing to those who make the decisions. While we see this as a travesty, there are many more who view it as quite the opposite.

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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As was stated elsewhere, we will never win over popular opinion, our only hope is appealing to those who make the decisions. While we see this as a travesty, there are many more who view it as quite the opposite.

While I can see the point and it is true we are a minority right now in populartity...I believe it can be changed.

When working on the lion...I became good friends with the President and CEO of Panthera. If you watch NatGeoWild on TV...they are the ones who funded the "Cause an Uproar for Lion theme" lion documentaries.

The guy's name is Luke Hunter and is a very common sense type guy. Had SCI gotten behind the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion (in which Luke was a co-author) he would have promoted hunting as a conservation method. SCI rejected the definition and he views them as part of the problem now.

But...lets say it had gone the other way. And Panthera made a documentary on how hunting blocks provides habitat for lion...public opinion could have begun to sway...just saying...

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Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

As was stated elsewhere, we will never win over popular opinion, our only hope is appealing to those who make the decisions. While we see this as a travesty, there are many more who view it as quite the opposite.

While I can see the point and it is true we are a minority right now in populartity...I believe it can be changed.

When working on the lion...I became good friends with the President and CEO of Panthera. If you watch NatGeoWild on TV...they are the ones who funded the "Cause an Uproar for Lion theme" lion documentaries.

The guy's name is Luke Hunter and is a very common sense type guy. Had SCI gotten behind the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion (in which Luke was a co-author) he would have promoted hunting as a conservation method. SCI rejected the definition and he views them as part of the problem now.

But...lets say it had gone the other way. And Panthera made a documentary on how hunting blocks provides habitat for lion...public opinion could have begun to sway...just saying...

It does not require rocket science to be able to reason with people.

There are the hard core antis, which no reason is going to change at all.

But, the absolute majority of the general public are not hard core antis.

They just listen to what the antis are saying.

And those are NOT very hard to change their opinions.

One just have to have a reasoned argument.

SCI has made themselves a reputation of not being very trustworthy at all, even by hunters, and many of their own members.

They need to have a dramatic change of policy, get all their members on board, and start clearing their shady reputation before we can expect anything worthwhile from them.

I find it quite amusing how some individuals who seemed quite logical in the past, have changed once they have gotten involved with the inner workings of SCI.

Instead of being free thinkers, they have become the mouth piece of what we have all been experiencing from SCI top management.

It is called towing the "party line" in politics, and look where that has gotten us.

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Originally posted by cal pappas:
Steve:
Good thoughts but…
Did (do) the public listen to Charlton Heston or Tom Selleck or Ted Nugent?
For all the good intentions of those of like mind I honestly believe we are fighting a losing battle. For all the current conservative talk out there blowing sunshine up our backsides, there are more gun control laws, more anti hunting laws, more abortions, more government intrusion in our lives, more taxes, more gay this and that, etc., and the list goes on. You are preaching to the choir here, my friend, but it's a lost cause. I hate to be negative, but that's my opinion.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

As was stated elsewhere, we will never win over popular opinion, our only hope is appealing to those who make the decisions. While we see this as a travesty, there are many more who view it as quite the opposite.

While I can see the point and it is true we are a minority right now in populartity...I believe it can be changed.

When working on the lion...I became good friends with the President and CEO of Panthera. If you watch NatGeoWild on TV...they are the ones who funded the "Cause an Uproar for Lion theme" lion documentaries.

The guy's name is Luke Hunter and is a very common sense type guy. Had SCI gotten behind the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion (in which Luke was a co-author) he would have promoted hunting as a conservation method. SCI rejected the definition and he views them as part of the problem now.

But...lets say it had gone the other way. And Panthera made a documentary on how hunting blocks provides habitat for lion...public opinion could have begun to sway...just saying...

It does not require rocket science to be able to reason with people.

There are the hard core antis, which no reason is going to change at all.

But, the absolute majority of the general public are not hard core antis.

They just listen to what the antis are saying.

And those are NOT very hard to change their opinions.

One just have to have a reasoned argument.

SCI has made themselves a reputation of not being very trustworthy at all, even by hunters, and many of their own members.

They need to have a dramatic change of policy, get all their members on board, and start clearing their shady reputation before we can expect anything worthwhile from them.

I find it quite amusing how some individuals who seemed quite logical in the past, have changed once they have gotten involved with the inner workings of SCI.

Instead of being free thinkers, they have become the mouth piece of what we have all been experiencing from SCI top management.

It is called towing the "party line" in politics, and look where that has gotten us.

Saeed,

I think you have it right on this. The "rank and file American" listens to the current "pop culture" icons, Johnny Depp, Leonardo DiCaprio, Ben Aflick, Sean Penn etc.

If we could just line up some icons that believe what we believe, the "general public" would listen to the message and might use some critical thinking. They might become open to sport hunting used as a conservation tool.

We as sportsmen, for some reason can't figure out how to use the tools of society to win popular public opinion.

Keeping sport hunting in the shadows, as Bill C says, WAS the intellegent route. Social media and people who just cannot keep themselves from posting dead animals all over the internet have made that a moot point. We are 'out" now and we must either figure out how to successfully conduct damage control, or we are finished.

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Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
PHASA with the help of DSC and SCI have started a fund and have hired one if the best PR firms in JHB to do just this.

They are wanting to start a campaign of information and want to try and transform the "Trophy hunting " industry.

They have done studies as to what percentages of society hate hunting, tolerate hunting etc.

What words ,used in the industry are distasteful to the general public etc

Already we have been asked to re-brand "trophy hunting" to something else like " selective hunting of old animals etc.."

What we need to post on social media etc it's a Mammoth undertaking and ALL hunters should get involved in the education of non hunters

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Names like Madonna, Tom Sellick, George Strait are faces America knows and will listen to. There are a multitude of other athletes and celebs that are sportsman.

Is Madonna a hunter?

George and Tom would be great!

And...like NRA had Heston help them get started...one of the above would be great for SCI or DSC.

I can imagine Sellick or Straight representing DSC.

But I would not imagine either of them getting involved with SCI.

Too many bad apples involved with them in the past - and I gather some present and future ones too!

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
PHASA with the help of DSC and SCI have started a fund and have hired one if the best PR firms in JHB to do just this.

They are wanting to start a campaign of information and want to try and transform the "Trophy hunting " industry.

They have done studies as to what percentages of society hate hunting, tolerate hunting etc.

What words ,used in the industry are distasteful to the general public etc

Already we have been asked to re-brand "trophy hunting" to something else like " selective hunting of old animals etc.."

What we need to post on social media etc it's a Mammoth undertaking and ALL hunters should get involved in the education of non hunters

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
PHASA with the help of DSC and SCI have started a fund and have hired one if the best PR firms in JHB to do just this.

They are wanting to start a campaign of information and want to try and transform the "Trophy hunting " industry.

They have done studies as to what percentages of society hate hunting, tolerate hunting etc.

What words ,used in the industry are distasteful to the general public etc

Already we have been asked to re-brand "trophy hunting" to something else like " selective hunting of old animals etc.."

What we need to post on social media etc it's a Mammoth undertaking and ALL hunters should get involved in the education of non hunters

Exactly, we need to rebrand trophy hunting. In our terms. Paid celebrities without image problems can accomplish this.

Lane, I wouldn't mind leading an effort, but this needs to be a very professionally run PR campaign, the size and scope of the "Got Milk" campaign. We are talking millions and millions of dollars. It really needs to be a co-op of all the outdoor, hunting and advocacy groups. They (we) are all at risk and all stand to gain.

Shooters, hunters have always allowed the opposition to define us. They have successfully made us look like a bunch of dumb rednecks, or black goretex wearing tools.

Regards,

Steve

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Originally posted by BaxterB:
In my opinion there needs to be a scientific arm of the major organizations, and the goal of the organizations should be more outwardly in regards to conservation than gold medals and fancy dinners. When SCI or etc etc can LEAD original scientific/humanitarian efforts and not just be a club for hunters, they will begin to be seen differently. SCI, et al. need to a source of empirical data form which other organizations draw their conclusions.

Rebranding trophy hunting is a hard sell. Essentially, you will have to convince people (that is after all what the goal is) that killing animals helps them. There is more positive movement towards hunting in this country now by the 'localvore; movement, in response (and rejection of) to commercial food production. People realize that they can get the best meat/seafood possible by getting it themselves, and that has changed their attitude. That's why Anthony Bourdain was OK with killing an ELand - albeit from a truck- (it was high-grade meat after all) on CNN.

Just like the pro-gun organizations need to be leaders and not reactionaries in the fight, pro-hunting organizations need to be the same. They need to appeal (like it or not) to the NPR listener (if you scoff at the idea of pro- (or at least ok-with-)hunting NPR listeners, you aren't paying attention to who is listening to NPR) who is intelligent, but just not sure of things on the ground. That are OK with elephant hunting as long as it represents a holistic approach to wildlife sustainability into the future. That understand the conservation/hunting model is a complicated one and sometimes involves ideas and methods that seem contradictory. And hunting organizations need to be more conversation-oriented in their approach.

Hunting will not be saved/preserved by tree-stand whispering bubba's high-fiving over some 'toad' that they shot, and yucking it up. That's even offensive to me ( and most of the hunters I know). Like it or not, it's going to be preserved by the 'next' generation of hunters, and I don't necessarily mean the sons and daughters of current hunters; I mean the group of people who do not embrace the 'whack'em and stack'em' attitude, the machine-gunning and laughing-while-doing-it slaughter of hogs from helicopters, the pretty-girl-deer-killing hottie-who-never-seems-to-get-her-hands-dirty, rather it will be the ones who think before they act, who act in the best interest of the overall ecosystem, (and who aren't afraid to use that word), and who can speak intelligently to others about the facts of why hunting is a sustainable model. We've got a log way to go, in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
In my opinion there needs to be a scientific arm of the major organizations, and the goal of the organizations should be more outwardly in regards to conservation than gold medals and fancy dinners. When SCI or etc etc can LEAD original scientific/humanitarian efforts and not just be a club for hunters, they will begin to be seen differently. SCI, et al. need to a source of empirical data form which other organizations draw their conclusions.

Rebranding trophy hunting is a hard sell. Essentially, you will have to convince people (that is after all what the goal is) that killing animals helps them. There is more positive movement towards hunting in this country now by the 'localvore; movement, in response (and rejection of) to commercial food production. People realize that they can get the best meat/seafood possible by getting it themselves, and that has changed their attitude. That's why Anthony Bourdain was OK with killing an ELand - albeit from a truck- (it was high-grade meat after all) on CNN.

Just like the pro-gun organizations need to be leaders and not reactionaries in the fight, pro-hunting organizations need to be the same. They need to appeal (like it or not) to the NPR listener (if you scoff at the idea of pro- (or at least ok-with-)hunting NPR listeners, you aren't paying attention to who is listening to NPR) who is intelligent, but just not sure of things on the ground. That are OK with elephant hunting as long as it represents a holistic approach to wildlife sustainability into the future. That understand the conservation/hunting model is a complicated one and sometimes involves ideas and methods that seem contradictory. And hunting organizations need to be more conversation-oriented in their approach.

Hunting will not be saved/preserved by tree-stand whispering bubba's high-fiving over some 'toad' that they shot, and yucking it up. That's even offensive to me ( and most of the hunters I know). Like it or not, it's going to be preserved by the 'next' generation of hunters, and I don't necessarily mean the sons and daughters of current hunters; I mean the group of people who do not embrace the 'whack'em and stack'em' attitude, the machine-gunning and laughing-while-doing-it slaughter of hogs from helicopters, the pretty-girl-deer-killing hottie-who-never-seems-to-get-her-hands-dirty, rather it will be the ones who think before they act, who act in the best interest of the overall ecosystem, (and who aren't afraid to use that word), and who can speak intelligently to others about the facts of why hunting is a sustainable model. We've got a log way to go, in my opinion.

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Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
PHASA with the help of DSC and SCI have started a fund and have hired one if the best PR firms in JHB to do just this.

They are wanting to start a campaign of information and want to try and transform the "Trophy hunting " industry.

They have done studies as to what percentages of society hate hunting, tolerate hunting etc.

What words ,used in the industry are distasteful to the general public etc

Already we have been asked to re-brand "trophy hunting" to something else like " selective hunting of old animals etc.."

What we need to post on social media etc it's a Mammoth undertaking and ALL hunters should get involved in the education of non hunters

Absolute bloody madness and a total waste of money.

I'm all for educating the great unwashed about the positive contribution hunting makes to wildlife conservation in general and Africa in particular but dear God almighty one wonders what overpaid, overeducated mucking foron dreamed that one up!

Whoever it was, is living on Planet Insanity!

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Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
It was an example
But " trophy hunting" has a negative response from joe soap public.

What would be a good alternative phrase to replace trophy hunting ?

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Originally posted by Indy:
I suspect that the great majority of licensed deer hunters would support a ban on elephant hunting.

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Originally posted by MJines:

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Originally posted by Indy:
I suspect that the great majority of licensed deer hunters would support a ban on elephant hunting.

Then they are idiots.

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Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
PHASA with the help of DSC and SCI have started a fund and have hired one if the best PR firms in JHB to do just this.

They are wanting to start a campaign of information and want to try and transform the "Trophy hunting " industry.

They have done studies as to what percentages of society hate hunting, tolerate hunting etc.

What words ,used in the industry are distasteful to the general public etc

Already we have been asked to re-brand "trophy hunting" to something else like " selective hunting of old animals etc.."

What we need to post on social media etc it's a Mammoth undertaking and ALL hunters should get involved in the education of non hunters

Absolute bloody madness and a total waste of money.

I'm all for educating the great unwashed about the positive contribution hunting makes to wildlife conservation in general and Africa in particular but dear God almighty one wonders what overpaid, overeducated mucking foron dreamed that one up!

Whoever it was, is living on Planet Insanity!

Steve
The mucking foron is a non hunting PR organization that has done extensive research amongst the public.

When asked if they are opposed to hunting very few are, if asked if they are opposed to trophy hunting 70% + are.

That's the reality of what we are up against