The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Reaction to 'The Elephant and the Pauper" on National Geographic website.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Reaction to 'The Elephant and the Pauper" on National Geographic website. | Login/Join |
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Anyone interested in a scrap or will apathy rule? http://voices.nationalgeograph...ng-and-ivory-trading Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | ||
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Just commented but I'll bet they don't post my or any other pro hunting comments.......... and how rucking fidiculous is that when you read the ignorant anti hunting comments they are posting!  | |||
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No need to post a reply. You can see that the "moderator" picks what to be posted. No difference from the idiots at lionaid! | |||
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Why just give up? I see that Steve and Andrew have both posted comments that have been uploaded. I submitted a comment as well. If we sit back and allow rubbish like hunting is to animal preservation like murder is to solving world hunger to go unchallenged, we are just conceding the battle to other side. At least we should go down swinging. Mike | |||
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Will there be a point by point reply? Given that Nat Geo allowed this long opinion, they would be open to a rebuttal. | |||
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I submitted one as well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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They had mine up with a note that said pending modertation and then it went away.  Here is what I wrote: With all due respect Nat Geo...the fellow who made that film lives in Africa, is a strong conservationist, and knows more about African Conservation and the African Elephant than the editors of Nat Geo ever will. It is an extremely accurrate film. Also...it does NOT promote ivory poaching...nothing could be further than the truth. For those who want to know the "REAL TRUTH"...please watch the film. Nat Geo...although I watch your wildlife programs...I see first hand that Nat Geo is nothing more than a left-wing talking head most of the time. If Nat Geo really CARED about Africa and her Fauna...they themselves would air Zig's films. This comes from a Dr. of Veterinary Medicine who spends a fair amount of time in the wilds of Africa. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Put in my 2 cents. I hope it gets posted as Nat Geo is way the F!@# off base but people take their programming as gospel. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Well written. I have copy pasted and put it up again in my name Good Hunting CF | |||
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I wrote a response as well. I think it never made it to its intended destination given a message I got. I will try and write it again. | |||
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And 30 seconds later it is gone! | |||
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They didn't post my comments. Maybe my description of what happens when the locals choose to poison the elephants when they have no monetary value was to repugnant to Nat Geo. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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It's there. The format is a little confusing so a redid my original but it is up and Lane's comments are there too. Lots of good well thought out comments from AR members and others. The antis comments are actually pretty pathetic and basically just emotional vitriol with no substance. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Mine finally showed up as well. | |||
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we'll see if my comments show up. i posted: To think that animals deserve to "live peacefully" on earth is a bit naive. this is not disney, this is nature. animals are not cute and cuddly, and mother nature takes no pity on anyone. animals are generally food for bigger animals. if not eaten, they will live until disease kills them or until they starve to death. it is never a pleasant way to go. animals do not live forever, and like it or not, humans have altered the habitat of nearly every animal on the planet in some way. we now have to deal with that in the best way we can for the ultimate survival and longevity of the species. A simple example in the US is the whitetail deer. as humans build homes, shopping malls, schools, etc... we do not like bears, wolves, and cougars killing us, our children, or our pets. So we do a wonderful job of killing off nature's balancing scale to the deer, the natural predators. what happens next? deer overpopulate, disease runs rampant, thousands are hit by cars every year as we continually encroach on their habitat, and lymes disease continually spreads. at some point, we have to manage the numbers, and the most effective way is hunting. not only does this provide protein to the hunters, their families, and whomever they donate the meat to, it also generates money to the states managing the wildlife. And it brings VALUE to the animals, that are otherwise thought of as a nuisance. with this value, they can then purchase back some of their habitat. in the US look at the millions of acres set aside from development from groups like the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Ducks Unlimited, SCI, etc... the elephant is no different. as humans encroach on their natural lands more and more and change the landscape, the numbers must be managed so that the long term sustainability is ensured. take a look at countries that have outlawed hunting, and check out their game populations. now look at countries that have hunting, and look at the vast differences in animal populations when the animals present a value to the local people. what may seem counter-intuitive to some, we, as hunters, as conservationists, have always known to be true: give an animal value, and it will survive. and yes, hunting will always have a place, modern times or no. hiring someone to slaughter your meat for you and package it nicely in a grocery store does not erase the fact that an animal gave its life for you. i would rather have an animal live free, graze freely, breed freely, run freely, and meet me and have a bad few seconds of its life.... as opposed to a cow or pig or chicken confined to a small feed lot, pumped full of grains and antibiotics, transported in trucks to large mechanical processors and have an entire bad existence. i'll take the free ranging elk, deer, or elephant, any day. | |||
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Well done gentlemen! The comments are now predominately pro-hunting as the most viable conservation scheme to save the elephant. Moreover, the comments submitted by the AR group are articulate, well reasoned and passionately, but not offensively, laid out. Compare that to the comments of some of the anti-conservation types, which are full of supposition and vitriol. Kudos to those that took the time to post and took the high road in their posts. Mike | |||
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for those that replied, thank you. when I went to the link the positive aspects of hunting out weighed the anti's. it does make a difference. | |||
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I'm in. This is what I wrote, and the moderator left it. The film in question is very well produced, and illustrative of the difference in outlook between preservationists and conservationists. Zimbabwe has a CITES quota allowing for the harvesting of up to 500 trophy elephant per year. The current elephant population of Zimbabwe is estimated to be 80,000. It does not seem likely that sport hunting of elephant would make a significant dent in the population of wild elephant, especially given that trophy animals are, generally speaking, old males. Each trophy animal taken injects tens of thousands of dollars into the local economy. If this revenue stream is denied, the animals will be regarded as protein at best, and dangerous nuisance animals at worst. The situation is undeniable. The notion that we should deny it because trophy hunting offends the sensibilities of the preservationists is foolish. Are we interested in conserving the species, or congratulating ourselves on our “enlightenment?” Keep it up, guys! I am glad to see the AR community so well represented ! | |||
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Guys, I'm seeing your posts all finally making it.. Lane, Mark, and others. They must have released them out finally! There's a nice string or pro hunting post there suddenly. We should all put thoughtful responses out there with the truth... | |||
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See what I mean?? I have posted on a number of websites on subjects related to hunting, not one single reply of mine has ever been published!! | |||
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Saeed, you should go on the Nat Geo link and post a thoughtful response. You have tremendous expertise and you express thoughtful and well stated insights. The posts are indeed being listed and most are pro hunting and from our members here thus far | |||
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One of my jobs a hundred years ago was selecting and editing a very few letters out of the fifty or sixty letters to the editor that a daily newspaper received daily, and I can tell you the above is how comments defending hunting should be written. It is thoughtful and rational, and without name-calling. It also is brief, with short paragraphs. This gives it more impact than a long-winded argumentative essay. Unfortunately, our comments will change nothing. Sydney Smith said it best in 1771: "Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out." Bill Quimby | |||
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I disagree. While there are strongly held opinions on both ends of the continuum, pro- and anti-hunting, there is a large group of people in the middle that do not have firm opinions and who can be swayed with reasoned arguments. The challenge is to reach them. We can concede the field to the anti's and let them pollute the debate with erroneous and inaccurate information or we can weigh in with information to help those undecided reach an informed decision. I would rather fight and lose, than throw in the towel. Mike | |||
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Our message is getting out and into the tree-huggers' literature...here are few links showing that...keep up the good fight! http://conservationmagazine.or...nciled-conservation/ http://news.nationalgeographic...-hunting-africa.html | |||
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Thanks for the support guys. We may like to cuss Nat Geo but at least they are displaying our posts, something that the NRA did not do and they are supposed to be on our side!! Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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Why did the NRA not post them?? May be we should ask them?? | |||
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It was this article that Mike had linked in one of his threads. They did put up some of our comments but did not put up a link to the movie as a couple of us had requested. I am not sure how you would go about asking them why they didn't do so. http://www.americanhunter.org/...article.php?id=32535 Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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I decided to post a comment as well, under my name William Rounds. I didn't mention hunting, I just asked the question if anybody could indicate a program which has produced better results in wildlife conservation in Africa than the Campfire program conceived and implemented in Zimbabwe. Since there isn't one I don't expect a lot of considered replies. This of course assumes my post will remain on their site. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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It was a good comment mate. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I do notice that most of their "science" seems to be based on the premise that there "should" be a way to conserve animals without hunting. It starts with an anti-hunting bias and then refuses to face the facts that hunting, as part of a conservation strategy or policy, can be beneficial. Basically, if it includes hunting then it's not the "best" policy. That none of the non-hunting approaches don't yield better results seems to escape them. Thanks for the mention Andrew. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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One of the authors responded gave a very specific challenge (albeit not directly). She said of elephant hunting: However, it’s as much a sport as it is money-generating, and we would like to see evidence that it—and not community development projects and community based resource management—has done more to alleviate poverty. That is the crux of our argument about hunting: That elephant trophy hunting is not a mainstay, as the film would have its audiences believe. So that's the challenge: quantifying the positive aspects of trophy hunting in regards to poverty. I'm not sure why she doesn't see them both (community projects and hunting) as working side by side, but as antagonists. I think we know why, but the perspicacious will see the hypocrisy. | |||
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I personally participated in a project connected with Meru National Park in Kenya which had a village development program, for villages in proximity with the park. There are dozens if not hundreds of community development project results in numerous countries in Africa. But post-project audits would have to bend their own logic to show any reduction in wildlife or habitat depletion, and most require external funding rather then self-generating their own income in any way that impacts wildlife in a positive way. But it's a big business for "development" experts and funding agency bureaucrats. They are being paid for their points of view. Hunters, on the other hand, are spending their discretional income on money spent in Africa which goes to communities in a higher percentage. They also, at one point, speak of photographic safari income as a goal for a sole source of tourist income. It is true that photo safaris, in National Parks and not any remaining wild public or community owned land, generates income, but it goes to airlines, lodges and restaurants, not to villages. And it certainly doesn't provide protein to villagers. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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To try to make a distinction between community development projects and efforts to alleviate poverty is a distinction without a difference. As the film Mr. Mackintosh did shows, money from Campfire is being used to build schools, build medical clinics, drill boreholes, install irrigation projects . . . all of those directly go towards alleviating poverty. It is almost comical to even suggest otherwise. Mike | |||
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But yet they do. Wink you make a good point, and one I also made in my apparently still-being-moderated post. That people are encouraged to dump money into the top of a massive bureaucracy for conservation/help, and the money gets chewed up by the bureaucracy via various forms and then dribbles out the bottom end. The money has to be spent as close to the ground to have effect it seems, otherwise there are just too many pockets to fill. | |||
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My long winded response on Nat Geo. Zig: The movie got the highest accolade in my house. The 6 year old was sent for a bath just after I started watching, he shot through the bath in literally 2 minutes, came running back and watched with me without saying a single word during the whole movie. At the end he asked me whether he could go along when I go to Zim again to hunt elephant. For me that was priceless! A film based on bad ecology? Really? A trained ecologist I am not, but I have a keen interest in the natural world of my continent. Whether you are a hunter or a non-hunter you have a nearly equal role in the way the habitat and the animals animals are used and, yes, killed in this world. The human race consumes not only the animals themselves for their meat, hide, hooves and trophies but also their habitat. Farmers didn't find their fields magically devoid of animals ready for planting, those animals were displaced and killed by humans. How many animals were displaced, killed, poisoned to provide you with your daily needs in the supermarket? Meat, fish, vegetables, fruit and corn products are all on the shelves at a certain cost to the natural environment. I have seen the destructive effects and habitat modification of elephants first hand in my time. The population pressure in Kruger is pressing elephants westwards into private land. The elephants are welcome but in a couple of years the density has increased to the same level as Kruger. Last year 280 elephant was counted on 7500 acres, on this same 7500 acres I couldn't find one Knobthorn acacia that wasn't barked, I could only find 1 marula sapling. Elephants congregate on water and in an over populated area the riverine forest is destroyed. I have spent hundreds of days on the Elephants River in the South African Lowveld where there are no elephants and where there are. In the area where there are no to few elephants it is a veritable tropical paradise, one often sees Narina Trogon, Pel's Fishing Owl and African Finfoot. Where the riverine forest is destroyed there are none! Their habitat, their homes have been destroyed by elephants. If you have an opinion about elephant management I hope you are familiar with those names.... In Gona Rhe Zhou Benji Weir is an excellent example: descriptions before the Benji spring was dammed speaks of lush vegetation around the spring, today it is a dam surrounded by denuded land carpeted in elephant droppings that run INTO the water in the rains: by definition a slum existence! A responsible conservationists we have to take care of soil, plants and animals in that order. Soil take millions of years to form and the plant substrate on the soil is the product of the last 300 to 500 years climatic, animal and human effect. Rural Africa is a harsh place to survive: health care, clean water, income and education are nearly impossible to obtain. How many Africans have you seen that are starving after crops have failed or been destroyed? CAMPFIRE gives those people the edge to rise above their fickle circumstances and in that process lessen their consumptive and destructive use of their land, it also gives the animals that share their land a better lot than being killed to feed hungry stomachs. As conservationists that gives us a foothold for education about conservation and wise use of resources for the future, it is very difficult to convert a hungry stomach! The developed world should allow Africa to find its own solutions suitable for their circumstances and problems. In essence Zimbabwe a failed state and it is a tribute to the robustness of the CAMPFIRE concept that there are any wild animals left at all in the country. Humans are the major vector in changes in the natural environment, thus it is our responsibility to be custodians of all wild species and to manipulate the natural world to lessen our own impact and protect all species responsibly. As usual the right decision to make is not an easy or popular decision. | |||
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Very well stated Martinus.  I can only hope that some of those that have posted anti-hunting comments on the article, just before they sat down to dine on their steak, will actually take the time to read it. The argument you are making is the argument Ron Thomson has made for years . . . which unfortunately seems to fall on deaf ears.Mike | |||
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I did also post there, lets see if the moderator approve the comment. What never seize to amaze me is the thought that ecotourism should be able to shoulder the responsibility to safeguard the areas elephants needs. It is so very contra productive! Trophy hunting needs dense populations of thousands of elephants to be viable. Eco tourism is the other way around, you earn more money the more threatened the species is and there is no incitament on protecting the species outside your area. | |||
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It looks like they are no longer posting replies. How convenient the most recent, and thusly at the top, post is by one of the authors. Pathetic. | |||
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Perhaps because it is the weekend . . . Mike | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Reaction to 'The Elephant and the Pauper" on National Geographic website.
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