The air charter thread made me start thinking. Lots of things going on in 2013. We (Americans) have a lot of things going on including:

1- bad economy
2- increases taxes from the Obamacare debacle
3- the prospect of even more additional taxes as the fiscal cliff approaches.
4- long term not looking good with the change in demographics. Those that work and take care of themselves are a smaller and smaller percentage of our population .
5- out of control spending that is absolutely not sustainable.

What impact do you all think this will have on international hunting in 2013 and beyond ? Will the higher priced destinations suffer? will the low end hunts prosper?

Personally, I am going to watch my money. I am scared. I went on 4 international hunting trips in 2012. I am cutting back. I have booked multiple elephant and buff in 2013. I have 2 South American trips. I am questioning whether I should stay at home for a while.

I am off to ponder this while I sit in a deer stand.

Larry......We are on the same page. However, if I do not get an Elephant hunt of some type planned, I think I will blow up. I've got another 5 years to wait before I start introducing my second set of grandchildren to Africa, and I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING IN THE MEAN TIME. Besides, having an Ele hunt planned keeps me young. Ha.
All the same.......I am glad I live here in New Mexico where I can find any number of wonderful opportunities beside jumping the pond on a regular basis.

I have with much regret had to cancel out on a dove hunt to Argentina because of the economic effects on one of my businesses.
I'm trying real hard to keep my safari for July alive, but like you, I am very concerned about not just what is happening, but what is going to happen.
All these people that are receiving the benefits of my labor are spenders, not savers. Therefore I need to find out just what they are spending this obamamoney on & try to sell it to them and help recoup my losses.
I know, I know, a lot of it is spent on drugs, I'll not participate in that.

As an inversion to holding back due to inevitable tax increases plus reinstatement of high estate taxes, I plan to spend as much as I can on future hunts...when your hair goes from gray to white, it's time to enjoy as much as possible while you can...the kids have enough cushion.

My choices are not made with my sons inheritance in mind. They want us to go & enjoy our lives, they don't care if we spend it all.
They are made with the financial survival of my wife & I in mind.
Some may have more cash on hand than I do & I salute you for it.
Safaris are an expensive vacation & we have to sacrifice to go on them. At this point, I am not sure I should be stretching my finances that far.
But like bcolyer, planning & preparing for a hunting trip of any kind keeps me feeling younger & also happier.

Larry,

We deal with disposable income. As that shrinks, so will our business. Who knows to what extent though. Never discount the power of addiction though!

I fear you may be on to something though. I am trying to be optimistic! (For somewhat obvious reasons). If you are a barometer of things to come, I am scared. Please understand, I mean that in the most respectful way, as you do quite a bit of hunting.

I see lower end hunts suffering the most. Plainsgame and Buffalo specifically. That has been my experience.

21-day hunts, still sell. Although not like they did pre-2009.

I think everyone in this industry will hurt a little, maybe a lot depending on your position in the industry.

Politics aside, this is really a question of "Living within one's means" bound by "What's important to me".

Those decisions occur regardless of one's social status and wealth level. Some folk make decisions on Leica vs. Swaro. Or perhaps Elephant Bull vs. Cow. Or Remington vs. Winchester (*as opposed to Heym vs. Kriegoff). Others decide on more mundane things...like where the next meal might come from.

I have a PG hunt scheduled for next year. Airfare will run nearly $4k (myself and wife) and the hunt will run another $5k or so. Figure $1k for incidentals so let's round up to a nice, event $10k (this hunt won't have any big trophy expenses. Euro mount only hunt.)

Could the tax situation change my life and priorities? Sure. I'm going to get hammered by the tax changes and I know it. But I also don't "need" to belong to a couple of wine clubs. And I don't "Need" to buy a couple new suits next year. I can also avoid putting big mudders on my truck and penalizing my fuel economy. And maybe I can change my choice of Friday night restaurants to something a bit less...eat in a bit more...and of course that would make it healthier. And I certainly don't NEED that Chapuis DR in 9.3x74r that I've been lusting after.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that a few adjustments in lifestyle would enable me to hunt Cape Buff - even if doing it as a cow...or double cow hunt.

My point is, many of us have the capacity to make significant changes in life that would still allow us to hunt and do many of the things that we love to do. It's just a question of prioritization.

We have alot of real problems ahead of us--and our friends accross the pond or invested too. One of my very good friends Safari companies American cliet base is about 85% of his business--so he cares what happens over here.

I am very worried on what could happen as we are a Nation divided--we all need to pull together and work for some common good-- life is not fair--there are have and have nots--all ways will be. But we have to go beyond and do what is right for growth of the country, the common good, and do away with alot of greed we have seen in the last 20 years. Greed has had almost everything to do with the sit. we are in.

This is what I fear--this is what breaks countries down--entitlement--thinking things are free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio

My grandparents lived thru the great depression--and eventhough they were very well off in their later years--they still hauled there bath water out of the tub and watered trees, and used butter tubs for tuperware. We could all take a lesson or two from them.
I will go back to Africa in 2014 if I can swing it, it does put a stain on my pocketbook everytime I go, but the experence is what I seek. I have sold my gun collection to around 30 from around 150 or so--and have never regreated the dicision--I have met new friends, had countless stories to tell and smelled the mopane smoke...I will never be the same.

Larry

Having retired about 1 1/2 years ago, i now find that my disposable income is not what it used to be. (Hindsight, I should have worked another 2 years)

With the unknown in taxes that are being hung over our head. It really make one sit back and take a second look, before jumping in.

This year we are taking a trip to Scotland, (my wife's dream vacation) which we will be able to afford.

I also would like to take the grand son to Africa as a graduation gift. I have found a few trips that look good to go on, however i will have to wait for my accountant to let me know where i stand on disposable funds for a trip like this. I think i will wait for the SCI Banquet, in Albuquerque to see if i can purchase a good safari. If not then i will see what i can do. (His part is graduating and getting a Passport)

Like all on here we also have to plan and save for future safari activities.

505ED:

[quote]My grandparents lived thru the great depression--and eventhough they were very well off in their later years--they still hauled there bath water out of the tub and watered trees, and used butter tubs for tuperware. We could all take a lesson or two from them.
quote]

I have to laugh at their tupperware! My parents both lived through the depression (I've got to be older than you). I still use the butter tubs for tupperware myself, obviously a result of parental thrift. Every time I see syrup left on a plate after pancakes I remember my dad (former Kansas dryland wheat farmer - no longer with us) yelling at me for being wasteful. I still remember my grandfather sitting silent, a hold over from watching the dust blow by. I'm with you; none of us need the all of the accutruments we've all become used to and can shave a few dollars here and there.

Surely age plays a big role? Sit on it till you are six feet under will not help, and that can happen tommorrow....but then again, planning for the old days? It is a difficult one. People are booking more for next year that this past is my own personal experience. I am myself booked up for most of the best months.

Makes the group hunt look more attractive?

I ran a hunting operation in the late 80's and remember vividly the impacts of an economic downturn.

Well heeled folks continued to hunt - although several decided not to pay. I guess those who welched on their bills had become accustomed to a certain lifestyle and couldn't go cold-turkey. The bad economy seemed to hurt investments more than they hurt salaries - drastically impacting disposable income.

Lower income folks cut back, but saved their pennies to feed their passion. Less frequently to be sure, and on a smaller scale, but didn't cut it out completely.

One client who maintained a steady schedule was a woman's hairdresser. He said he initially saw a decrease in business, followed by a quick resumption. Said "a woman IS going to get her hair done, economy be damned."

I suppose many of us fall in one of these categories, but as a poster above so eloquently stated - we'll continue to feed the addiction somehow.

I had the great pleasure of hunting with Larry in Botswana this past year. I am likely to hunt with him in Zim next year. After that I may pull back. I pay for my school teacher brother to hunt in the US and had the grand time of taking him to Zambia with Sir Fairgame last year. Being in the medical business, I have no idea where I will end up. I would like to get an elephant for my brother but beyond that and next year, there will be a lot of wait and see.

Jeff

There is no question in my mind that the economic situation for we retirees has changed for the worse. Here in CA I am looking at the passage of Gov. Moonbeams Prop. 30 increasing my sales tax to unimaginable heights - in excess of 10% and possibly upwards of 15%. Local sales tax increases were also passed by people who have no idea what they voted for. CA has imposed sales tax on internet sales. My purchasing power from a fixed income government retirement is being steadily reduced.

I plan to begin selling off my U.S. martial arms collection of long guns and handguns and am considering cashing in a life insurance policy to help pay for my next safari - if there is to be a next safari. I have re-fi'd for the second time in the past year in order to reduce my monthly house payment. I am even contemplating selling the DR I purchased a few months ago.

Welcome to the Obama nation, and it ain't over yet!

I try to rotate my trips to Africa between vacations with my wife. She is a definite "non-hunter" so don't suggest I take her with me because she won't go, she will tell you that she wants me to enjoy my safari. I would love to get her a lung full of Mapane smoke!Last year we went to Sicily for our anniversary/vacation, the year before i went to Africa and so on for a good many years. being in health care and dealing on a daily basis with Obama care my next safari is 2014, delayed a year. We have to see a lot more patients to make the same money and it is only going to get worse. We are looking at possibly a 20 % reduction in re-imbursement in 2013 and that trend will continue. I am cutting back on other recreations so I can still go to Africa, {I even sold my bass boat!} As said, priorites. I will still go to Africa,, may be a plains game instead of dangerous game in the future but I will return!

I won't have to worry about what I will do when I retire because the way the economy is going that will never happen. Estate taxes, increase income taxes, reduced insurance payments, increased overhead,, What is a guy supposed to do??? I think better with Mopane smoke in the air,, next campfire in Africa I will ponder those things...

What has impacted me more than anything is the fire sale on assets in the US, particularly residential real estate in Phoenix. I spent seven figs in the past 3 years on it, but during that time I did two Tanz hunts, a Yukon hunt, New Mexico, AZ elk, and a few other lesser hunts, as well as a few scuba/fishing trips to VI and OZ. As I have said before, the money I spent on real estate is producing enough income to pay for all the hunting I care to do. It also has some huge tax advantages due to depreciation and the recapture on said depreciation. I have a few other twists I throw in there as well.

I am giving a presentation on Wed called "Fighting for your Financial Freedom."

One of the things I will advise young people to do is start saving for retirement, but to also start creating passive income streams outside of retirement accounts. Use those passive streams to fund your vacations first - it is a wonderful way to motivate you to save money.

I was in a camp in Zimbabwe in August and this topic came up. The PH said this is already impacting them to a significant degree, less people are going on safari.
I would think it will get worse in 13 and peyond.

I have looked back on what I hunted in 2012.i had a great time. I loved every minute of it. When I look at the cost, the likely additional taxes I will pay , my age and the absolute uncertainty of what is happening in the US,I have to wonder if my actions are reasonable ? I think the reasonable thing to do is cut back. While I love it, it may well not be the reasonable course of action to continue as I have.

I think we are looking at significant reduction in the value of the dollar which will translate into higher safari costs. It isn't going to get any cheaper to go in the future and we are all likely to see a decrease in our collective standard of living. If you currently have the money, make your best deal and go now.

Just because you have the $$$$ now does not mean you should spend them on a luxury when in a short time you may very well need them just to survive.

.I sat out this year too. Hate it and that may have been a mistake. On the other hand I read "this time it's different, 8 centuries of financial folly" .WOW what a sobering book. My cracked foggy crystal ball says ; The Dollar is going to lose value. How fast no one knows but the trajectory will be consistently down. As America becomes more and more 3rd worldish and as we defund the military so we can pay Democratic voters to have more illegitimate children to swell the voter base, the influence of China in Africa will become rapidly stronger. Any one who knows anything about the Chinese understands that that is going to be the death nell for sport hunting in Africa.

I am sure that the out come is inevitable but the timing is unknown. I am only sure of this: Last year was a better year to go than this one an this year will be better than the next. If you can, I suggest going as soon as possible but each person has to balance value vs need vs wants vs finances.

I think that there will be ranch hunting in South Africa and maybe Namibia for a long time. The other countries are a real question mark. The people who hunt Botswana this year may be the last.

Being only 36 years of age, I felt blessed to be able to go to Namibia in 2010. That has been my only trip to Africa so far. I was planning to go back in 2013 but, I'm going to wait and see what happens.

I am afraid that we are headed into another recession or worse. I hope I am wrong!! Raising taxes on the wealthy will not solve this countries problems.

quote:

Originally posted by GunsCore:
I think we are looking at significant reduction in the value of the dollar which will translate into higher safari costs. It isn't going to get any cheaper to go in the future and we are all likely to see a decrease in our collective standard of living. If you currently have the money, make your best deal and go now.

Only if you are hunting in Canada,Australia, NZ or China, will you feel the effects of a weaker dollar. It will hold its value elsewhere.

I am off to SA in Feb, a (cheaper) PG hunt with my wife. I want her to see the country while it is still safe (enough for her to come along).

Here is my take on this: I am 60 years old, and can walk most 30 year olds in the dirt. I am a surgical (O.R.) nurse........so I see a LARGE portion of the population that have lost their health. My health is completely intact, although I KNOW I am in control of nothing!

Is it tooooooo expensive for me to go on numerous Dangerous game hunts. YES. Do I continue to plan and contract to go. YES. Does the economy and other factors warrent this. NO. Have I shot it all before? YES.
Then.........WHY. Here is what my dollars buys me......I am convinced of this......SO DO NOT TELL ME DIFFERENTLY. My trips to Africa, that I plan about every 3 years now - I use to go every year, buys me TWO (2) things. #1 MOTIVATION to stay in shape - which keeps me healthy - this is where I prefer to spend my health care dollars. Not on meds, physicians, surgeries, etc. etc. #2 Who I want my family to see me as, and the heritage they gain as they go with me.

Larry......I am with you - should I probably be going, no. I am I going to Dallas to look to book another Ele hunt.........yes. Damn it, damn it, damn it......good for me.

P.S. Before I was in the health care field, I was 25 years in the ministry. I NEVER, NEVER, heard a single person heading toward their death bed say.........I just should have stayed home and worked another week, or month, or year, or made a few more $$$$$$$$$$.
Larry ---- you are still a smart man! And I am going to take your advice and take a close look at things. But I am still going to plan to go.
Life is too short, and time to short to shape and spend with my family. What else can I do.

I think the question of funding one's retirement comes into play here as well. Do I get excited about planning/booking an upcoming hunt? Hell yes. But I am more cranked knowing I can retire at 53 and still go to Africa every year if I choose to. I certainly don't want to be old and broke, looking at a bunch of dusty old mounts to remind me of better times. Some of you guys act like if you can't hunt there is no reason for living. Not sure I am going to feel that way when I am 75. I do know having an ever increasing net worth makes aging a lot easier to tolerate.

I carefully monitor my net worth and its growth every month. That gives me a good idea what I can spend on hunting. My income doesn't drive my hunting spending, my growth in net worth does. Similarly, my spending on hunting has no real impact on my net worth.

bcolyer brings up a good point: I am 53 and can RUN most 30 olds into the dirt. Fitness is just as important as financial health. A week from Friday I head back to the bottom of the Grand Canyon on my favorite back country hike.

But the original debate posed by Larry seems to have been side-pocketed: taxes are going up, entitlements are exploding, etc. How will this impact hunting? Is it fair to take away from the "haves?"

I normally would take Larry's position with my liberal friends, so I will play devil's advocate now. I see the middle class being squeezed, esp those who work for big companies. Pay is relatively stagnant; health care costs are increasing, downsizing seems to be corporate America's raison d'être, etc. I look at my three brothers and my sister: only one seems to have a secure retirement, and he is a union plumber (damn those unions!).

Now, I suppose one could say these folks should start their own business. That response reminds me a perfectly healthy looking "retired on disability" police officer (on his second career in the outdoor industry) I met who stated he had every dollar coming to him and if I didn't like it, I should become a police officer. That response is dumb, for the simple reason if everyone does it, there will be no one to pay the taxes required to fund the pensions. Similarly, if everyone in this country started a business, mine would go under, since I would no longer have employees. Makes me realize my employees are a cherished resource. After three years, I contribute 20% of their salary to a SEP retirement plan. I also pay 100 percent of their medical premium.

Frankly, I don't know what I would do if I worked for a big company, trying to save for retirement thru a 401K. The math just doesn't add up for most people. Adding on an African hunt now and then would be a real stretch. As Wendell stated, I see this as putting a lot of pressure on PG hunts.

Me? I am now buying my hunts like I buy real estate, stocks, and bonds: only at distressed prices. Spending a lot of money on a hunt is gut wrenching; waiting for the 3-0 pitch makes it a no brainer.

Great post...

I'm already booked for a buffalo hunt next year and will continue to go as often as I can afford to. I never could afford to go more than once a year and that will not change unless I win the lottery or some unknown to me relative that has lots of money dies and leaves me everything. I have my wife taken care of with my business and property, life insurance, etc and the gravy for me is to go and hunt when I can afford to.

Larry,

Great post. Unless you have tons of disposable $$$ and few do, I think its prudent to hunt for experiences as opposed to just collecting trophies and completeting this slam or that diamond level or shooting multiple animals of the same species.

I have always felt that shooting an expensive animal like a Sable doesnt really give you a "new experience" especially after you have shot a bit of the more common and cheaper plainsgame species. Dont get me wrong a Sable is a fantastic animal and I would love to shoot one but I would rather spend the money on an Ibex hunt in Asia where you would have a very different experience.

To me a hunter who goes on 10 different buffalo or tuskless hunts in Zimbabwe is doing himself a dis-service, when there is so much more of the world to see. Of course physical fitness, time and personal likes and dislikes come into play but to me personally its more about the experience of hunting vastly different species and different countries.

Regards,

Arjun

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
Larry,

Great post. Unless you have tons of disposable $$$ and few do, I think its prudent to hunt for experiences as opposed to just collecting trophies and completeting this slam or that diamond level or shooting multiple animals of the same species.

I have always felt that shooting an expensive animal like a Sable doesnt really give you a "new experience" especially after you have shot a bit of the more common and cheaper plainsgame species. Dont get me wrong a Sable is a fantastic animal and I would love to shoot one but I would rather spend the money on an Ibex hunt in Asia where you would have a very different experience.

To me a hunter who goes on 10 different buffalo or tuskless hunts in Zimbabwe is doing himself a dis-service, when there is so much more of the world to see. Of course physical fitness, time and personal likes and dislikes come into play but to me personally its more about the experience of hunting vastly different species and different countries.

Regards,

Arjun

Arjun:

You are dead on about ibex over sable. A big ibex is more impressive too, IMO.

But the experience quotient is something I really value. For example, hunting hill stags in Scotland won't net you the biggest red stag, but the experience is really top notch.

My signature line says it all!