With all the discussion and mixed emotions on the "Single shot rifle----" thread, I just wanted to asked a real question for my own information. Please be objective on this. How likely is it for an actual charge on the first shot, considering the shot distance is probably going to be 20-60 yards??????? I'm not talking about elephant looking at you at 10-20 yards, but just buffalo.

I love to hunt with my muzzleloading rifles and welcome the single shot challenge, and I am also looking forward to hunting with my 450/400 Ruger #1. In wanting to book a buff hunt for '09 or '10, I might consider taking it as primary rifle with my 375 H&H as a second gun for the tracker to bring along.

How many here personally have had, or know of, a serious buffalo charge following the first shot? Every video I have ever watched, each story I have read, or person I have talked to about it can't come up with a story about one.

Even the stupid Mark Sullivan charges are after the animal is wounded, and multiple chances at greater ranges have been passed up in order to "induce" the animal to "decide how it wants to die". Why wouldn't I wait 15-30 minutes to track a wounded animal, instead of 5, if I was really worried about a charge.

Input please.

The problem is it only has to happen once

blank , i havent had it happen directly after the first shot but i have had a wounded buff ( wounded from a wire snare) jump up and charge us as we were following a herd ..

PHs are there for a reason , to get you into animals and to keep you safe ...thats our job , personally i have no problem with someone wanting to hunt with a single shot rifle..

i have guided both elephant and buff with single shot rifles and i know many other PHs who have with no dire consequences , often , even with a bolt action or a double there isn't time for a second shot and so it backs up what everyone says right here ...ITS THE FIRST SHOT THAT COUNTS !!

go for it ...

Ivan: Thanks for your input. I really appreciate the "experienced" speaking up. Saw your Tracks Across Africa show last week, and enjoyed it. I am hoping to speak with you at Reno.

My wife shot a buffalo laying down facing away from her this year. Distance was about 25 meters in very thick bush. Shot placement was perfect and would have been acceptably fatal. The buffalo rose to his feet and was immediately shot twice with .458's. He spun to charge and made it approximately 2 steps before she shot him in the face and dropped him. This is the only time I have ever run into this. It should also be known that this bull had tried to flatten a native earlier in the day and that is why we were tracking him. If everything had been riding on one bullet I probably would have gotten hurt since I was the fattest, slowest, one in the group, and a disgraceful tree climber.

I forget Ivan. How many clients have you had eaten?

Blank, thanks for the question, it is one I have thought about too and have always wanted to know the answer to myself! I would think that 9 times out of ten the animal would run away to the confusion and sound of the rifle's blast. However, taking a guess, I would think it would depend maybe on how close you were to the animal when the shot was taken, and whether the animal was aware of you or not, and whether it had been stalked, pressed, molested and flushed maybe earlier in the day (in other words was it in a good or bad mood).

Obviously we are talking about a healthy animal that has not been snared, carrying any previous lead, or been an attempted lion dish at some point (un-wounded basically). I would think that if you are very close, within it's attack zone, and the animal was aware of you pror to or just after the shot, your chances of a charge would probably be much greater than if you were further away, at least that is my guess. I am not sure what others have experienced though, and would very much like to hear their views too.
Cheers,
Nzou.

Blank,

I may be nuts but I don't think I'd give too much thought to the disadventage to a scoped single shot for buffalo. The PH will know you have only one shot and I'm sure he will be on full alert in the unusual case that things go south.

Mark

This is just an illustration of what happens when folks get all worked up about dangerous animals ....be it buffalo or badgers or whatever ..... I had supper at Joe's Beerhouse in August with an old friend. He told me that he had guided a lady and her husband just shortly before that. They had found a natural kill from a big leopard so set up a blind for the lady to get her cat.. He warned her that when the big tom came in that she was to kill it instantly !!! Otherwise it would just as instantly charge them !! To convince her of the gravity of the situation .. he had a tracker in the blind with them and gave the guy a pistol to use.. The big cat came in .. daylight .. fed ... looked their way a couple of times .. and finally got suspicious and melted away and was gone... She never pulled the trigger .. Her husband was in a rage later ... he had paid so much money for the safari and she hadn't shot the leopard when she got the chance .. I paid for the meal ... but really shouldn't have. (Is that more on topic ??? Sheeshhh !!! )

No unwounded buff will ever charge at the shot, except in exaggerated stories.

Blank,

Not much chance of a buff charging on the first shot but it could and has happened. The real question is what do you do with your single shot if a wounded buff charges and your one and only shot doesn't bring him down? Remember, PH's have been known to miss also.

465H&H

I have run timed drills on reloading my single shots (less than 3 seconds) and my muzzleloader (12 seconds first shot/4 aimed shots in a minute) to see just how worried I should be. If the PH misses his shot(s) in the event of a charge, I can be pretty sure I'll be getting off either the third or fourth myself.

Having repeating rifles and good PH's didn't help Bob Fontana or Niki Atcheson or a couple others in the past couple years, but that is hunting and life.

I am more worried about driving in heavy traffic, being murdered in town in J'Berg or Harare, or falling out of the sky on the air charter, than I am about the hunt itself. I'll just get insurance for my heirs, and what a story you'll have to tell on AR after I'm gone.

You all have good opinions, personal views on the subject, and suggestions, but aren't really answering the question asked.

Will, as you know, there are no "nevers" or "always" in hunting. This brings to mind a video, which I have, and which I have since seen here and on U Tube. The hunter, a woman, wearing a sky blue blouse, when she and her PH walked up on a sleeping buffalo, in the open, at what appeared to be 65-70 yards. The animal rose up, took a look at the group and instantly put on a serious charge. IIRC took seven or eight rounds to sort him out.

That said, I have taken 14 buffalo and been present for maybe 6 or 7 others. The only one that charged had been hit too far back and we had been persuing him for several hours in the jesse. The PH even suggested that after doggedly tracking the old boy, he might be getting pretty tired of us and would want to settle things up. Boy was he right!

Just a thought, maybe it was that woman's sky blue blouse that pissed off that sleepy buff.

Geronimo

quote:

I forget Ivan. How many clients have you had eaten?

not all that many , but it makes great footage ... not so good when eaten , better if just mildly trampled

blank , look forward to seeing you ,

smarterthanu
i have had similar , when a buffalo doesnt know that you are there and you are very close , sometimes as he is hit , his eyes fly open and he looks for what hurts him , and woe betide whoever or whatever he sees first ...

perhaps we should just advise on getting more powerful scopes on single shot weaopons and shoot from a very long way away to give time to reload when there is a charge...that way the animal will take a while to get to you and the Ph wont have to risk missing

quote:

Originally posted by Geronomo:
The hunter, a woman, wearing a sky blue blouse, when she and her PH walked up on a sleeping buffalo, in the open, at what appeared to be 65-70 yards. The animal rose up, took a look at the group and instantly put on a serious charge. IIRC took seven or eight rounds to sort him out.

I have also walked up on buff taking a snooze, but not when after buff, as such no shot taken. When the one jumped up after sensing our presence, he stood there for a long time looking at us. I thought for awhile he might come, but eventually decided to run off after we circled around upwind.

I just can't imagine the odds on getting an unprovoked charge out of an unwounded buff. Must be extremely small. I don't doubt your video, but I just never even hear of any.

But you never know when you will stumble across a wounded one, being that every square yard in some areas of Zim has a snare. Keeps the rookies on their toes!

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
I had supper at Joe's Beerhouse in August with an old friend. He told me that he had guided a lady and her husband just shortly before that. They had found a natural kill from a big leopard so set up a blind for the lady to get her cat.. He warned her that when the big tom came in that she was to kill it instantly !!! Otherwise it would just as instantly charge them !! To convince her of the gravity of the situation .. he had a tracker in the blind with them and gave the guy a pistol to use.. The big cat came in .. daylight .. fed ... looked their way a couple of times .. and finally got suspicious and melted away and was gone... She never pulled the trigger .. Her husband was in a rage later ... he had paid so much money for the safari and she hadn't shot the leopard when she got the chance .. I paid for the meal ... but really shouldn't have.

i guess i am a little slow, but what exactly does this have to do with the topic at hand?

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by scruffy:
I had supper at Joe's Beerhouse in August with an old friend. He told me that he had guided a lady and her husband just shortly before that. They had found a natural kill from a big leopard so set up a blind for the lady to get her cat.. He warned her that when the big tom came in that she was to kill it instantly !!! Otherwise it would just as instantly charge them !! To convince her of the gravity of the situation .. he had a tracker in the blind with them and gave the guy a pistol to use.. The big cat came in .. daylight .. fed ... looked their way a couple of times .. and finally got suspicious and melted away and was gone... She never pulled the trigger .. Her husband was in a rage later ... he had paid so much money for the safari and she hadn't shot the leopard when she got the chance .. I paid for the meal ... but really shouldn't have.

quote:

i guess i am a little slow, but what exactly does this have to do with the topic at hand?

.........UH, me too!

Blank, thanks for the question. I have often thought about it too. IMHO the reaction of a buffalo on being mortally wounded depends very much on the buffalo in question.

If you track and approach a herd unnoticed and quietly select the target animal so that the first thing the herd knows about hunters is a decent double lung shot through one of the nice big bulls from a close range. [But not from withing the critical attack distance as mentioned by Nzou.] Now there is confusion and fear all around: Cows and calves running away from the sound of the shot in a herd. Herd bulls doing what herd bulls do: They stick to the herd and run away too. What do you think the mortally wounded buffalo herd bull will do? Right! He will run away with the herd too!

After a number of yards he will begin to realize that he was actually hurt badly by the hunters and he may then stop, consider his options and actually turn around and start a charge. Usually he runs out of steam before the hunters even knows that they are being charged. My limited buffalo hunting experience have shown that all bulls shot from an unsuspecting herd ran away with the herd. After the shot we would wait for one cigarette before taking the blood spoor, and every single time the buffalo was found dead in his tracks, examination of which revealed that he was in a charge coming back at us before finally expiring!

My experience with shooting a bull from a herd of dugga-boys results in exactly the same situation. On the shot they all run away initially. Then the mortally wounded one turns around and charges back. I even once saw one such bull stop, turn around, sniff the air and then collapse before he could start a charge. It may be a lack of numerical buffalo hunting experiences, or good PH-ing to get the client close and talk him into a good shot, but I have never yet had to face a true close-up charge.

What is likely to happen when you creep up to a real old bachelor bull and mortally wound him. One who has been on his own for some time? You know the type? He would walk out of his way to go show a lion who is the boss! A real old warrior! Methinks such a bull is very likely to take the shot, and not run away with the rest, as there is no rest of the group or herd, but immediately try to locate you and charge. With such a bull I would not like to have a muzzleloader or a single shot as only weapon.

Like to hear what the more experienced PH's feel about this explanation.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Hopefully this will be relevant...
I was on a walking/safari holiday in Zim in Hwange NP and the Guide/PH went up to a dam where there was a very splendid bull elephant. He crept forward about 25 yards, with the usual instruction of "Stay here." He got into a good position and motioned us forward, to take the same route he did...
We tiptoed forward, and suddenly out of a concealed wallow shot a small hippo. We had inadvertantl committed the sin of separating a hippo from the water. The Guide/PH had not seen the wallow, which was concealed by thick bush. The hippo ran towards us, mouth open, reminding me of looking into a VW Beetle with the bonnet open - but with brown tusks. As I threw myself aside I saw the PH bring his rifle up, but the hippo passed through us and to one side, as we flung ourselves out of the way. He didn't have a clear shot as we were now his backstop. The hippo - a juvenile - dived into the dam.
No one foresaw this. We were incredibly lucky no one was hurt, but hopefully this illustrates that surprises - big ones - do happen!
And a week earlier, canoeing on the Zambezi (Chirundu-Mana Pools) one of our canoes was tossed by a hippo, which put a tusk through a chap's foot. The canoe guide - not a qualified PH - froze, and admitted he had left the First Aid kit in Kariba (where he had probably sold it) I had kept some field dressings in my bergen, and patched him up. Fortunately we were resued by some farmers who had taken a weekend off away from the troubles to take part in a game count.
So surprises can happen twice in a short space of time...
Lots of lessons there for me anyway. Guides/PHs can get it wrong, unqualified guides can be dangerous. Be prepared to get yourself out of trouble, and be prepared to get others out to.
I have never hunted in Africa, but have travelled a bit there, under my own steam, esp Namibia. I will hunt in Southern Africa. Probably with a cheap mag fed 375HH or whatever I can afford. But it'll have a mag. Good hunting.

quote:

No unwounded buff will ever charge at the shot, except in exaggerated stories.

I have had it happening once. The hunter shot it with a .375 H&H loaded with a 300gr Nosler Partition (against my instructions) on the point of the shoulder. It was angling 45 degrees towards us, dropped to its knees at the shot (from about 30 yards), jumped up and came straight for us, broken shoulder notwithstanding. Even though the client had a bolt action, he froze and did not get in another shot. Will, BTW if it has not happened to you, with your vast experience, it does not mean it cannot happen... Never (ever) is a long time indeed.

Andrew.......

If you whack em with a REALLY big projectile then you won't need to worry about a charge as the animal will be dropped on the spot eh? Of course, collateral deforestation is a liability.

You know what I'm talking about....

At least in my own experience, very unlikely.

This year I shot a bull at about 100 yards, he took off and disappeared into thick bush and grass. We ran after him. Apparently he changed course, and came straight for us.

We saw each other about 10 yards apart. He did not like the look of us, and veered to his left, giving me a percet chance to break his neck.

Here is the video

Don't be dickhead-use a double and live to tell the tale

Karl S, if you shot it and hit it, wouldn't this be a WOUNDED buffalo?
Peter.

Ask Husky about his buff hunt...they don´t even need that first shot to charge!

Peter, yes it would be. But the statement was "charge AT the shot". Not before the shot/ unwounded. (In Will's post anyway) The poster asked the question if they are likely "to charge on the first shot", a question which I have tried to answer.
Short and sweet- No, they are not likely to do so, but it does happen.

Karl,

My question to you: Was the charger at the first shot a bull from a herd, from a batchelor group or a total loner?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Andrew.......

If you whack em with a REALLY big projectile then you won't need to worry about a charge as the animal will be dropped on the spot eh? Of course, collateral deforestation is a liability.

You know what I'm talking about....

Yes. I know what you are talking about: Adding to the Global Warming! Burning all that black powder, black because it contains charcoal - that is obtained from trees,and thus worsening the deforrestation by the actual projectile - causes a lot of CO2 to be released. You are thereby adding to the global warming!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

The only animal I can remember charging us "at the shot" was an impala.

I shot him about 200 yards away, the bullet going through the top of his heart. He took off straight for us!

Luckily he never made it, as he dropped long before he got to us.

After that, anytime I shot an impala at charging distance I always hit them in the neck. Just o make sure they don't come after us.

Andrew, it was a total loner. And a cow.
Saeed, you can never be too carefull of impala!

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
What is likely to happen when you creep up to a real old bachelor bull and mortally wound him. One who has been on his own for some time? You know the type? He would walk out of his way to go show a lion who is the boss! A real old warrior! Methinks such a bull is very likely to take the shot, and not run away with the rest, as there is no rest of the group or herd, but immediately try to locate you and charge. With such a bull I would not like to have a muzzleloader or a single shot as only weapon.


Andrew McLaren

In all the years I've hunted big game, and been around animals, I've had exactly three animals charge me! One was a tame turkey Tom, when I was about four years old. We had turkey for dinner the next night after my mom stopped that charge with her broom!

The second was a wounded Badger, in the old Ascura atom bombing range in New Mexico where we were surveying a transit line across the valley for a new range road. I shot it with a 22 pistol, and when I went to collect it, it charged me, and only because I got in the bed of our pick-up did it not get to me.

The next was a lone Buffalo, just as Andrew describes above. We had been trailing some buffalo, but saw a real buster of a Cookson's wildebeest, and because it was getting close to time for the buff to look for shade, and lay down, and they were about 30 min ahead of us, we decided to try for the Willie. As we stalked the Willie, suddenly we heard something large coming our way from thick bush to our right. We couldn't see him till he was about 10, or 12 yds from us, in a definite charge. Both the PH and I fired on him, no effect, then we both fired on him again with one round going through the brain, dropping him in a cloud of dust, sliding right up to us, as we were certainly back peddling!

The buff was not wounded as far as we could determine, but he was absolutely alone. The only thing I can think of was we got too close, and he heard us, and charged not knowing, or careing what we were, because he didn't have our wind. The PH said he was by himself, and was likely to charge anything that got close to him. IMO,this is what some folks call a "charge without provocation" , and my belief goes along with what my grandfather told me about a bear. He said " A bear will never charge you un-provoked, but you must understand, the bear decides what constitutes provocation!" The fact that you are there, may be provocation enough!

Though I think actual charges from Cape buffalo, are rare, unless you are hunting with MS! Wounded, or not, they do happen, and the buff above is the very reason a single shot may be a liability, if it is the primary rifle! Though both our bullets hit the buff, the one that hit the brain was mine, and was the second shot from a 500/450 NE double rifle. If I had been using my Ruger No1, I wouldn't have gotten off that second shot, so in this case the PH's two 375 H&H shots did not drag my nuts out of the fire, and neither of us would have gotten off another shot. The above is the reason why the single shot is a specialty rifle, to be used in conjunction with another more suitable rifle, and only for special occasions!

Though I've done it, and am not afraid to do it again, in the case above, it would have been a disaster! This is what I meant about the real answer being someplace in the middle of all the answers you got. Take the Ruger, but take another DGR rifle as well, and pick your wars!

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
How likely is it for an actual charge on the first shot, considering the shot distance is probably going to be 20-60 yards???????

IMO, highly unlikely. Buffalo are inherent cowards and would much prefer to run away. But if you push a wounded one hard enough he will certainly come for you. Or if you get within the buffalo's personal space without a shot being fired, he will also come for you. There is also the chance that he will just run in a random direction which happens to be right where you are standing.

You should obtain the book "Nyati" put out by African Hunter because it has excellent information on all topics buffalo.

I remeber having one of the biggest laughs I have ever had on a hunt while watching one of those very old bulls Mac mentioned being shot.

We had a German friend with us, who had never fired anything bigger than a 338 Winchester before.

He was visibly worried about shooting my 416 Rigby Improved, but, he had no choice if he wanted to shoot a buffalo.

We were driving along late one morning, when we saw this really old, old bull lying in the shade of a tree close to the road.

I loaded the rifle for our friend and handed it to him. He went with Roy to put that old bull out of his misery.

The bull was lying facing away from them, and Roy was apparently telling our friend not to shoot yet, as he wanted to get into a position where the angle is better.

Apparently, our friend in his excitement, did not hear anything but the word "shoot", and he pulled the trigger.

We were a few yards behind them, and could hear the conversation:

Roy "FUCK! I TOLD you NOT to shoot!"

Now the bull was trying his best to get up, but was not able - this was not due to the bullet hit, as he wasn't hurt much anyway, as you will see in a minute.

Oscar "Is he did?"

Iwas watching the bull trying to get up, and Oscar was asking if he was dead! That really cracked us all up, and I burst out with laughter so loud I could have woken the buffalo even if he was DEAD!

Roy "No he is NOT dead! You shot before I blocked my ears! Shoot bhim again!"

Oscar proceeded to fire two more shots at the buffalo, at least one of them we could hear recochete off something.

Eventually the bull died - probably more of excitement than any wounds inflicted on him.

We found that Oscar's 3 shots have actually created 18 holes in the buffalo!

This was caused by the bullets hitting him on the surface of the body, and stitching in and out of his as he lay lengthways!

We had a discussion later on that if we had left that bull where he was, we would have found him dead by the afternoon anyway.

If you watched Saeed's video above, that was some pretty damn nice shooting on Saeed's part.

Of course, it is reminiscent of some Sullivan videos I seen.

After nominating Saeed for the 2008 Mark Sullivan Award, I sure hope he wins!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
If you watched Saeed's video above, that was some pretty damn nice shooting on Saeed's part.

Glad someone else noticed that shot. I'd say our Host's about ready for whitetails in the swamps of Aroostock County!

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Andrew.......

If you whack em with a REALLY big projectile then you won't need to worry about a charge as the animal will be dropped on the spot eh? Of course, collateral deforestation is a liability.

You know what I'm talking about....

Yes. I know what you are talking about: Adding to the Global Warming! Burning all that black powder, black because it contains charcoal - that is obtained from trees,and thus worsening the deforrestation by the actual projectile - causes a lot of CO2 to be released. You are thereby adding to the global warming!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Try not to shoot any Buffalo whom are standing in front of trees then!!

Thanks for the input, and real world experience. I'm sure a lot of readers appreciated the answers, as I did myself.

Looking forward to meeting some of you in Reno, and maybe others in Africa someday. Good hunting and be safe out there.

Blank,

I think sometimes we here on AR incluing myself get distracted from the original questions that are posted. To answer your question and I'm no buffalo expert but every buffalo I have encoutered that was not already wounded has made it his quest to get out of the country. I think a charge from an previously unwounded buffalo unless there is something wrong with the buff is very unlikely.

If you'd like to use your ML on buff I'd like to talk to you about it.

Mark

Mark what is the story behind buff charge on your site : Safari trackers promo video (at 4 min 10 seconds time)?