Sorry I know this is the wrong spot, But I need help ASAP, it can be move in a day or 2 thank you!!!

Problem:

My friend called me a couple hours ago he is in jail in the Phillipenes, he got caught with a North American Arms tiny .22 Darrenger in his checked suitcase, it was loaded. The X-Ray machine picked it up. Again it was checked. He is 62 years old and has $$$, but its bad. I warned him.

I just searched PI Law with no success. Does anyone here know the Law there???? He called the US Embassy and had a Lawyer. I dont know what I can do for him, There are alot of smart people here-so please let me know. He was stupid, he is becomming paranoid, perhaps he will learn somethiong here. I read one case where someone got a year there-but the case was from 1908-probably a nice black powder gun.

All else is ok, I'm feeling a bit betterm and hello to all of my extended AR family, Brother Ron, Saeed, Walter, Canuk Etc. I might be able to hunt next year!!!

Best thing would be to get a very good Philippine licensed lawyer that has connections with the powers that be, as I am sure that money and influence will do most of the talking there. He should be asking the lawyer that he already has there if he knows the very best lawyer that money can buy and the two lawyers should then work together on it.

I agree with Use Enough Gun, and that phrase of "USE ENOUGH GUN"is the best idea where legal matters are concerned in the Phillipenes, for sure! Money is only paper, and your friend doesn't want to spend a year in a Phillipenes prison!

Not to make light of this situation but if I were your friend I would make a financial contribution to the Provincial Governor's election fund and also to the judge's health and recreation fund. He might also send the Chief of Police's family a greeting card with a pre-paid gift card for dinner at the best restaurant in town.

Just my two cents.

Namibiahunter

I think he'll be very lucky indeed if he only faces local charges relating to endangering an aircraft and firearms offenses. The alternative for trying to smuggle a loaded firearm onto an aircraft are (for very good reason) considerable. Without meaning to cause offense, whatever was he thinking when he performed such a staggering act of lunacy.

Iv'e gotta say I can't feel any sympathy at all for anyone who does such a thing.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I think he'll be very lucky indeed if he only faces local charges relating to endangering an aircraft and firearms offenses. The alternative for trying to smuggle a loaded firearm onto an aircraft are (for very good reason) considerable. Without meaning to cause offense, whatever was he thinking when he performed such a staggering act of lunacy.

Iv'e gotta say I can't feel any sympathy at all for anyone who does such a thing.

I agree Steve, but the pistol was not in his carry on, but in Checked luggage, so it wasn't rndangering the plane. The big thing is it was loaded, and he had no permission to bring a handgun into the Phillipenes!

Mac,

He's endangering the aircraft and everyone on it simply by having a loaded firearm in his checked baggage. All it takes is for something to fall against his bag etc whilst it's in the hold and the aircraft is in flight and the firearm can go off. If that bullet penetrates the fuselage, (esp if the bag in in a pressurised hold), damages any part of the controls or navigation equipment or fuel lines etc or damages other freight (for example) it can and probably would endanger the aircraft.

Further to my last post.

Most aircraft accidents are either caused by human error or by a sequence of events that cause a 'chain reaction' such as happened in the Value-Jet crash (see link below). In that event, it was the fact that some idiot had loaded oxygen generators that should have been disabled but were not onto an aircaft and the same hold also contained some aircraft tyres. When combined they created what was in effect a turbo charged fire that was able to beat the airtight hold, burn through the 'firewall' and cause the aircraft to crash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592

This idiot could very easily have caused a similar scenario.

Yeah, Steve's right. It's doubtful a .22 would do much, but it could penetrate a hydraulic line or do some electrical damage, and Murphy's First and Second Laws apply.

I don't know what the guy could have been thinking, but whatever the case, I wish him well.

Glad to hear a real pro who's REALLY been at the sharp end agrees with me.

From my experience, if its in a pressurised hold a .22 is enough to cause an explosive decrompression if it penetrates the fuselage at the right altitude which could easily cause a lot more problems than just a small hole in the aircraft.

I tend to feel he put himself in the position he's in and that he must face the music. - At the end of the day, his rank stupidity could easily have caused a commercial passenger aircraft to crash with total loss of life.

I guess to a degree Im biased for a variety of reasons, but that's the way I feel and the cupid stunt deserves everything that's coming to him.

Er... OK... Well, not sure that the bits attacking an elderly man about forgetting his pistol in his suitcase help... Er, and NAAs are single actions, where the hammer rests against the cylinder, so even if it's hit, it cannot go off...

A couple points A) He's an absent-minded, elderly man who forgot a small gun, he normally keeps to deal w. snakes, etc. It's really too small to be useful against anything else, and he is sincerely sorry. B) Get a well-connected lawyer, and tell him to keep his $*%* mouth shut. C) If he's got some real bucks, it's time for some charitable contributions around the area -- hopefully he's been making some charitable contributions to other organizations -- if he does, get documents/letters, etc showing that. My uncle felt a great deal of gratitude to the Boy Scouts -- that gratitude helped him out considerably later in life.

Essentially, you need to start portraying your friend as a nice, grandfatherly figure, who had a "senior moment" but is a wonderful man... Who would love to help his new friends in the Phillipenes... Does he have any business contacts in the Phil? He also needs to get out on bail ASAP, and go start meeting people, become known as a very nice man.

If he has any health concerns/conditions, his lawyers should know about that as well -- if he is going to be sentenced, they may be able to get some kind of house arrest "to avoid giving him a death sentence," due to the rigors, etc of being in a prison.

Apart from my concern about absent minded men having "senior moments" related to loaded firearms, I would like to ask about Steve's statement below:

quote:

if its in a pressurised hold a .22 is enough to cause an explosive decrompression if it penetrates the fuselage at the right altitude

There was an episode of "Myth Busters" where they pressurized an aircraft and then fired a gun from the inside, through the window. There was no explosive decompression, the dummy was not sucked out of the window etc. etc. They concluded that the myth was "busted". Any people with more experience care to comment?
Peter.

as someone who is 60, i take serious exception to someone who is 62 being considered as elderly and therefore prone to "senior moments". sounds more like they guy is just plain dumb!!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Mac,

He's endangering the aircraft and everyone on it simply by having a loaded firearm in his checked baggage. All it takes is for something to fall against his bag etc whilst it's in the hold and the aircraft is in flight and the firearm can go off. If that bullet penetrates the fuselage, (esp if the bag in in a pressurised hold), damages any part of the controls or navigation equipment or fuel lines etc or damages other freight (for example) it can and probably would endanger the aircraft.

quote:

Further to my last post.

Most aircraft accidents are either caused by human error or by a sequence of events that cause a 'chain reaction' such as happened in the Value-Jet crash (see link below). In that event, it was the fact that some idiot had loaded oxygen generators that should have been disabled but were not onto an aircaft and the same hold also contained some aircraft tyres. When combined they created what was in effect a turbo charged fire that was able to beat the airtight hold, burn through the 'firewall' and cause the aircraft to crash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592

This idiot could very easily have caused a similar scenario.

quote:

Yeah, Steve's right. It's doubtful a .22 would do much, but it could penetrate a hydraulic line or do some electrical damage, and Murphy's First and Second Laws apply.

I don't know what the guy could have been thinking, but whatever the case, I wish him well.

quote:

Glad to hear a real pro who's REALLY been at the sharp end agrees with me.

From my experience, if its in a pressurised hold a .22 is enough to cause an explosive decrompression if it penetrates the fuselage at the right altitude which could easily cause a lot more problems than just a small hole in the aircraft.

I tend to feel he put himself in the position he's in and that he must face the music. - At the end of the day, his rank stupidity could easily have caused a commercial passenger aircraft to crash with total loss of life.

I guess to a degree Im biased for a variety of reasons, but that's the way I feel and the cupid stunt deserves everything that's coming to him.

Before we get into this very deeply, speaking of "EXPERIENCE", let me tell you here I retired in 1996 with 31 years as an aircraft machinic.

That being said you are both correct to some extent, Jetdriver more so than Steve. But what I thought Steve was refering to is a hyjacking potentual if someone got hold of the gun from the man's carry on. The little 22 with a shor barrel, and inside lugage wrapped in clothing, most likely wouldn't get out of the bag. It could, however, and that is a Murphy fact! Even if the 22 pearced the skin of the plane, it would not, as is common "movie conception" have caused a Pressure explosion, that is a falacy! All that would do is cause a loss of pressure,at the altitudes airliners fly, and cause the oxigen masks to fall, and the pilot to have to loose altitude till he could land. the hitting of a hydrolic line, would be one thing if it penetrated that far, or punch through the fibergalss inside wall of the belly, and cut wires.

ValueJet crash was a whole different thing! There should have been murder charges filed in that case. The oxigen generators that were place on that plane were listed as "Empty" by the shipper, and that was a purposefull misreprestation, by the shipper, because he didn't want to ship ground fraight! However a case od class I flamables is a whole different thing than a little 22 in a suitcase full of cloths.

Of course you are both correct, the pistol should have never been on the airplane at all, And anything is possible, so I suppose I will have to agree with you on a technically, but I doubt if the pistol had fired the whole cylinter, it would have nothing more than punch a hole in the guys underwear. On a legal level, I agree whole heartredly, because there in no way this guy didn't know he was carrying that pistol to the Phillipenes! He could have at least unloaded it!

This is a bad day at blackrock, any way you look at it!

I dont think deviating from the core issue to discuss what might or might not occur if it went off, or how old the chap is has much relavence, after all MUGABE is 80 and still of sane mind, otherwise how the hell could he be still be holding on to POWER, so age is not a factor.

The CORE issue is how can we help this chap to alleviate the criminal charges that he is facing over the error of judgement.

I think a local laywer with proven track record in this specific scenario might be the only way forward.

Cheers, Peter

quote:

Originally posted by LV Eric:
All else is ok, I'm feeling a bit betterm and hello to all of my extended AR family, Brother Ron, Saeed, Walter, Canuk Etc. I might be able to hunt next year!!!

Eric,

Hello right back at ya buddy! Unfortunately I have no pearls of wisdom that might help your friend, but I am VERY glad to hear that things are looking up for you!! That is fantastic!

Best,
Canuck

I was suggesting how it should be portrayed, not that all people over 60 are senile.

And, frankly, a man that forgets a loaded gun in his luggage is probably a bit absent minded.

Er... I forget about guns all the time -- one of my friends found an old Colt Pocket auto behind a chest freezer.

I do however, go diligently through my luggage and clothes before flying, however -- I forgot about a reload for my G29 once, and had to leave the line to go through security to go put it in my car.

Mac,

When I was talking about both the Value-Jet incident and the bullet penetration, I was trying to explain how these issues are caused by a sequence of events rather than a single event. - Nothing more....... PM sent anyway.

I think what Steve is trying to say is that negligents kills people and in my opinion your friend should learn from this experience.
I have an uncle who shot himself through the stomach with a 30-06 because he forgot there was a bullet in the chamber.
Spending his retirement in a jail is a bit stiff, I hope you get him out.

Eric,

I didn't know you had been ill. - Hope you get well soon!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
as someone who is 60, i take serious exception to someone who is 62 being considered as elderly and therefore prone to "senior moments". sounds more like they guy is just plain dumb!!

Agreed. I'm 66, and I damned sure wouldn't pack a loaded popgun in my checked baggage. I fly with both pistols and rifles at least a couple of times a year and they're laways legal. No problems.

I have a NAA .22 revolver, and you can do quite a job on a human with one if you're close enough. I've carried it for a backup for years. Head shot will ruin your whole day.

quote:

Originally posted by LV Eric:
All else is ok, I'm feeling a bit betterm and hello to all of my extended AR family, Brother Ron, Saeed, Walter, Canuk Etc. I might be able to hunt next year!!!

Very glad to hear you are feeling better and I hope you get to hunt next year.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
as someone who is 60, i take serious exception to someone who is 62 being considered as elderly and therefore prone to "senior moments". sounds more like they guy is just plain dumb!!

If at the age of 62 the mind is gone to "SINIOR MOMENTS" Then I must be brain dead at 72 yrs of age! NOW! Where did I leave my pants???????????

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Mac,

When I was talking about both the Value-Jet incident and the bullet penetration, I was trying to explain how these issues are caused by a sequence of events rather than a single event. - Nothing more....... PM sent anyway.

No problem Steve, I knew where you were coming from, and I agree, on the Murphy law of what can happen, sooner or later will happen!

Eric,

I am very sorry to hear about this.

The issue is not that it was only a .22 caliber weapon, the issue is that it was a concealed and loaded firearm "found" by the authorities in a country that has nothing even close to a second amendment.

Also, there is nothing even remotely similar to our "speedy trail" rule in the Philippines, so even if the punishment for the offense is a year or two, it could take years for the case to come to trial.

You can also forget about "spreading money around". Every citizen of the US is subject to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which makes it a federal felony here to offer or attempt to offer a bribe or payment for favorable treatment from foreign government.

The other concern here is what he will be charged with. He needs to be very careful about pleas offered to him. If he pleads to an offense in exchange for a light sentence, his record may reflect a felony conviction in the Philippines, which would bar him from owning or possessing firearms here in the US.

If you still need some assistance, drop me a PM. I had some legal contacts there, but that was some time ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
The other concern here is what he will be charged with.

As usual, Jim raises a very good point indeed. I guess it's not at all out of the question that he could be charged with anti terrorism offenses. Perhaps unlikely, but not impossible. Esp as the Phillipines are now considered a terrorism hotspot.

Eric, I'm a bit confused about how it happened. Was he checking in for a flight from the Phillipines to the USA when he got caught? In which case, where did he get the firearm? - or was he going from the US to the Phillipines, in which case did he get the firearm through US security?

Thanks, Steve. And as Dan pointed out, if any part of his visit there deviated from the straight and narrow, they will certainly find that out.

Forget about any "rights" you are used to here in the US.

And while the US Embassy is indeed a lifeline in situations like this, I would be VERY wary of following their recommendations on a course of action. Embassy personnel that have been in country for any period of time can develop a tendency to look at themselves as advocated for the host government rather than representatives of the citizens of the US. And if this gets to be a media sensation in the Philippines (e.g.,rich American smuggling arms) the situation goes from what passes as a "normal" criminal matter to a chance to stick it to America.

I certainly understand Eric's desire to help his friend here, but I would urge him at this point to refrain from sharing any details and perhaps deleting this thread in its entirety.

That had actually occurred to me as well, but I think it'll have to be done by a moderator.

quote:

You can also forget about "spreading money around". Every citizen of the US is subject to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which makes it a federal felony here to offer or attempt to offer a bribe or payment for favorable treatment from foreign government.

I dunno what world you live in, but you can "spread money around" just about anywhere you want in the US, a practice that is highly illegal, and that sure as hell includes Dallas, and you can damn sure do it overseas. You hire a lawyer who is connected and he charges "fees" for services rendered. I'd be working the local politicos for the right connection, it won't be hard to find.

Finally I hope you have never given a few bucks to ANY custom/police official as "tip" in XYZ country in Africa or you are in violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, heaven forbid.

Doing it and admitting in writing to doing it on a public forum that may well be, and probably is monitored by various groups are two very different things.

Personally, I'd never ever consider offering a bribe to anyone under any circumstances for anything.

This whole thread is pointless.

Your friend (or his friends) should contact the US Embassy, who will tell him how to get the best local lawyer. Then do as that lawyer says. All other speculation is of no value.

Having read a little about gun laws in the Philippines, and having heard what happens if an American hunter accidentally drops a .308 round in his car trunk and gets caught with it in Mexico, I would guess your friend, if he does everything right from now on, will get several years of hard time.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

I dunno what world you live in, but you can "spread money around" just about anywhere you want in the US, a practice that is highly illegal, and that sure as hell includes Dallas, and you can damn sure do it overseas.

In the world I live in, people have a right against self incrimination. Now, if one decides to waive that right by making incriminating statements or admissions against their own interests on a public forum, they are certainly entitled to give up that which our Constitution grants them.

But, just as expressed above, it would be my advice to hang onto that right and avoid making any statement that could be contrued as an admission to the commission of a felony, or could be used at a future date as evidence of a propensity to ignore certain criminal laws.

That is the world I live in.

Your friend will be better off disregarding any advise given on any internet blog and listen soley to his lawyers, and to keep his mouth shut and not volenteer anything at this point nor signing any documents unless forced to by torture, ands that can happen in a heartbeat so he better get tough...If a catfish kept his mouth shut, he would never end up in the skillet..

Bottom line is your intentions are good and I know your grieving, but be carefull about offering any advise as it can do more harm than good...He needs to remain humble and polite but even at that, I don't give him much of a chance.I have had to get a few ignorant huntes out of African jails, fortunately I had some paybacks coming and got it done, but they were for much lesser violations than gun smuggling on airlines in a foriegn country..His fate now lies with the US Embassy and his lawyer.

It's one of those deals wherein he made some bad choices and now he is having to live with the results of that choice.

Your best bet is too keep in touch with the US Embassy and keep pushing them so they don't get sidetracked to some tea party..Sometimes I think these Embassy people live in a different world than the rest of us...

Just pray they don't release him on a "PR" with "Legal Hold" he'll end up in the PI for ever

I don't care what any of the prim and proper in here crowd seem to think, if this guy has money (if he doesn't, he's cooked) and any relatives or very close friends who are willing to go to the Philippines for him, they need to take the next flight and start doing some digging. They need to use their heads and NEVER use the words "bribe" "payoffs" etc but they need to find the person who is in charge of the prosecutor's, or local head politico's, even, "gasp" judge's, fund raising or similar relationship, whether it a lawyer, brother, or whatever and explain the situation, "old man, forgetful, unintended" even possibly "insane" or "incompetent" are some of the words to use and ask how this situation can be alleviated without punishing a stupid but innocent mistake and allow an old man to go home with a promise to never darken Philippine soil again.....I could go on but someone should get the picture....expect to be cheated but try to keep some of the "fees" until he is on a plane back to the US. It may not work, but otherwise he is in for a very rough patch. Second fallback is to find some way to alleviate the length and conditions of his sentence if plan A doesn't work.

Gatodoro, your advice sounds to me like a perfect recipe for:

1. The 62 year old fellow to receive no leniency.

2. The relative or friend who you propose bribe Filipino officials would be subject to prosecution in U.S. federal courts for felony violation of the U.S. corrupt foreign practice act, and subsequent imprisonment.

3. The relative or friend who you propose bribe Filipino officials would be subject to prosecution in the Phillipines, and subsequent imprisonment.

4. The 62 year old to face new charges in the Phillipines and/or the U.S. for conspiracy to bribe Filipino officials.

Note: Just because the Phillipines is not wealthy does not mean that they will be amused by attempts to bribe members of their police, prosecution, and judicial offices.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I don't care what any of the prim and proper in here crowd seem to think, if this guy has money (if he doesn't, he's cooked) and any relatives or very close friends who are willing to go to the Philippines for him, they need to take the next flight and start doing some digging. They need to use their heads and NEVER use the words "bribe" "payoffs" etc but they need to find the person who is in charge of the prosecutor's, or local head politico's, even, "gasp" judge's, fund raising or similar relationship, whether it a lawyer, brother, or whatever and explain the situation, "old man, forgetful, unintended" even possibly "insane" or "incompetent" are some of the words to use and ask how this situation can be alleviated without punishing a stupid but innocent mistake and allow an old man to go home with a promise to never darken Philippine soil again.....I could go on but someone should get the picture....expect to be cheated but try to keep some of the "fees" until he is on a plane back to the US. It may not work, but otherwise he is in for a very rough patch. Second fallback is to find some way to alleviate the length and conditions of his sentence if plan A doesn't work.

Frankly, I don't care what you think, nor do I think the guy who is facing a few years in a Philippine jail cares either. Anyone who thinks there aren't ways to get these things done is living in a dream world.

Note: just because the Philippines aren't wealthy and can be bought on a daily basis is no reason for your opinion to leave the guy in jail.

I'm also done with this thread, if this isn't clear then good luck to him.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Frankly, I don't care what you think, nor do I think the guy who is facing a few years in a Philippine jail cares either. Anyone who thinks there aren't ways to get these things done is living in a dream world.

Note: just because the Philippines aren't wealthy and can be bought on a daily basis is no reason for your opinion to leave the guy in jail.

I'm also done with this thread, if this isn't clear then good luck to him.

What makes you think it's so easy to bribe officials in the Phillipines? And doesn't it matter to you that it is a felony both here and there??

It seems to me that advising someone to commit a fresh set of felonies is not prudent.