quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Frankly, I don't care what you think, nor do I think the guy who is facing a few years in a Philippine jail cares either. Anyone who thinks there aren't ways to get these things done is living in a dream world.

A "few years?

quote:

http://manila.usembassy.gov/wwwhtr31.html
Consular Information Sheet


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Philippines

October 03, 2007

CRIMINAL PENALTIES
The Philippine Government also has strict laws against the possession of firearms, and several foreigners have been sentenced to life imprisonment for bringing firearms into the country.

Given the potential gravity of the issues here, offering "advice" that can aggravate the situation is, at a minimum, reckless.

No one here opined that the guy should be left in jail.

I'm going to post on this one more time.

Jim:

Let's see, given that you think he's potentially facing a life sentence, and, that on the face of the facts supplied, he is guilty, just how do you think working "backdoors" to get him out could "aggravate" the situation. I'm not there, if I was there, acting in his interest, obviously the first thing I would do is discuss with the appropriate authorities. probably either with or through a potentially "helpful" lawyer, what their intent is, and if they are leaning towards fining him, suspending a sentence, and putting him on a plane, that would be that.....OTOH, if they are taking a hard line, then you'd have to go to plan A, B, or C.

500grains:

I already specifically said that words like "bribe" are off the table. One would have to approach the situation with a scalpel, not a broad ax. For example, after hoping that you have found the right person to "discuss" the situation with, you say something to the effect that "my cousin/brother/whatever realizes that he made a serious mistake and while he is a man of limited means, he would like to know if there is ANY way that he could put this situation behind him and return to his family in the United States" etc. If the person asks, "are you offering me a bribe?", the obvious answer is, "Of course not, I was just trying to explore the amount of an appropriate fine to alleviate this problem." and go on to the next person.....if you find the right person, the delicate dance of negotiations won't be misunderstood by either party and "bribe" or any other similar word will never enter into it. All you are doing is offering to help pay for an orphanage building, or whatever to compensate for the mistake.......there are a million variations of baksheesh, it just depends on what gets the job done, some of them are really for the public good, and some of them are straight payoffs, if this isn't clear, then you need to stay in Utah.

Sorry Gato, but I will not agree that it is appropriate to pay bribes, regardless of what window dressing is put around it. I hope that your personal experience with this subject matter is unique among AR members.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I'm going to post on this one more time.

Jim:

Let's see, given that you think he's potentially facing a life sentence, and, that on the face of the facts supplied, he is guilty, just how do you think working "backdoors" to get him out could "aggravate" the situation. I'm not there, if I was there, acting in his interest, obviously the first thing I would do is discuss with the appropriate authorities. probably either with or through a potentially "helpful" lawyer, what their intent is, and if they are leaning towards fining him, suspending a sentence, and putting him on a plane, that would be that.....OTOH, if they are taking a hard line, then you'd have to go to plan A, B, or C.

500grains:

I already specifically said that words like "bribe" are off the table. One would have to approach the situation with a scalpel, not a broad ax. For example, after hoping that you have found the right person to "discuss" the situation with, you say something to the effect that "my cousin/brother/whatever realizes that he made a serious mistake and while he is a man of limited means, he would like to know if there is ANY way that he could put this situation behind him and return to his family in the United States" etc. If the person asks, "are you offering me a bribe?", the obvious answer is, "Of course not, I was just trying to explore the amount of an appropriate fine to alleviate this problem." and go on to the next person.....if you find the right person, the delicate dance of negotiations won't be misunderstood by either party and "bribe" or any other similar word will never enter into it. All you are doing is offering to help pay for an orphanage building, or whatever to compensate for the mistake.......there are a million variations of baksheesh, it just depends on what gets the job done, some of them are really for the public good, and some of them are straight payoffs, if this isn't clear, then you need to stay in Utah.

I have been following this thread with interest. I wonder how much of the advice is because of the country (The Phillipines)and our perception of it! Suppose it was the UK, Australia, France or even the USA? Now suppose it was Zim, RSA, Egypt etc?
Peter.

I think a lot of it is more about reading between the lines and using a bit of intelligence about not dropping yourself or anyone else in the smelly brown stuff...... but apparently some people don't seem to recognise that.

The guy was major league stupid, but doesn't deserve a long jail term. If he was my family or something like that, I'd be on a plane working out how I'd get enough cash into the country to sort it out.

In the phillipines, Mexico, African and other countries, the bribe, if that is what you want to call it, is a means of getting things done and well accepted as a way of life in those countries...Sometimes as Amercians we tend to think the only way to do things is by our own self contrived standards. On ocassion I have used this method in both Mexico, Spain and in Africa and it expediated the process..Not a bad system once you accept it as their way of life.

I was in a bar in Juarez Mexico with an old friend of mine who happen to be the head of the Federal Judical police and during one of our many tipsy conversations he told me that the difference in his countries "mordida" system (bribe system) and ours was his people laid the money out in plain sight "like men" and it was accepted..That my country eased it back and fourth under the table like punyetas. After many years in DEA I came to the conclusion that he wasn't too far off..

Sometimes a bribe works and sometimes it doesn't in these countries and it depends on the severity of the crime and how the bribe is presented, there are rules to this process...That said I know this mans Phillipine lawyer knows the process, and this man does not need to do or say anything.

In Mexico and a few other countries, you can go before a judge and get a writ of something or other, can't remember the name, to actually go kill another human being. the price of that piece of legal paper depends on the wealth and power of the person to be killed...You go shoot this fellow and present the writ to the officers when they get to the scene and you get a walk...

Gatogordo is not wrong in his thinking, it can be done in some cases and not in others, depends entirely on fate IMO. who your dealing with, what you did, how you did it, was their malace, intent, all these things are deciding factors...

Surely you guys don't think the Calley Cartel didn't have two or three countries in their palm!!! I mean they paid of the National Debt of Brazil, Columbia, bolivia ( one o those countries ) to keep DEA out of the country..

Will said it! I think some of us must live on a different planet, or that some are just naive.

quote:

Sorry Gato, but I will not agree that it is appropriate to pay bribes, regardless of what window dressing is put around it. I hope that your personal experience with this subject matter is unique among AR members.

I'm trying to be polite here but you're acting like some kind of prim moron.....let me give you an example and you put yourself in this spot and tell me that you wouldn't cough up the money.

You're going dove hunting in Mexico, you are going to rent guns and the shells will be supplied so you don't have any arms or ammunition with you, YOU THINK. You cross the border and get a few miles in country to one of the Federale checkpoints, you know, the ones where half of them look like something out of Pancho Villa days and the other half have uniforms and machine guns. It's your unlucky day, they pull you over and "strip" search your truck.....whether it was there or whether it was planted, they find ONE .30-06 round. They cuff you and say, you're going to jail. The penalty is something like 5 years hard labor. Luckily you speak excellent Spanish and beg to be able to call your hunt organizer who is a locally know big wig. He lets you and you explain the situation. He then talks to the office in charge....he then gets back on the phone with you and tells you that for $500, they'll forget the whole thing and he'll come pick you up and you can go on with your hunt. Let's see, $500 or 5 years in a Mexican hell hole jail......hmmmmmm.....I know, I know, you'd demand your rights to a trail. Yeah right.......moron.

Let's see: 500 Grains says:

quote:

Sorry Gato, but I will not agree that it is appropriate to pay bribes, regardless of what window dressing is put around it. I hope that your personal experience with this subject matter is unique among AR members.

In response, Gatogordo says:
"Yeah right.... moron".
Can someone please explain to me why we need this level of discourse? Perhaps there is something else going on behind the scenes?
Peter.