I'm by no means a Pro but I would choose a double.

Big Five Jack
While I am not a professional PH I have been using a double rifle for the last 8 years.
I have used one in Texas, Montana, Idaho, Canada, and Zimbabwe. I have taken 3 elephants and 2 buff.
I MUCH prefer using a double rifle for DG.
I have only been charged be a few animals.
A few pigs that "ran my way", a bull elephant that came for me after being hit at 120 yards, that I brained at @ 60 yards, and a Gorilla, that charged me from 12 yards that I hit at 6 yards with a bolt 458 [boy did I wish I had my double that day ].
SO I can state with some experience that for me a double is the ONLY way to go in a charge.
I have found a double to be NO handicap for general hunting. I have taken game to 150 yards [iron sighted doubles], and to 300 yards [scope sighted doubles].
The ONLY disadvantage to a double is its cost, but IMHO they are worth every penny.

You have actually taken a "Gorilla"!!! Wow. I would like to hear that story. I didn't know there were Gorillas in Zim.

If something is charging you, you have to kill it instantly. What rifle you use is immaterial. Use the one you can shoot well.

Even a machine gun is not going to be much help if you don't hit it right.

The Gorilla was not in Zim.

PS If you think a Cape Buff looks at you bad....
He is just a big cow...
A Gorilla has a really mean "stare" and looks like a [primative] man with a mission.
They are VERY fast.

I qualify my vote with the admission that I have never been to Africa nor have I shot a DR.(Though that will be fixed this year). I vote for the DR. Two quick shots and a fast reload would be more important to me. Under the stress of a charge I would have to take into account that recycling a bolt may not happen as smoothly as at the practice range!
then again reloading a two-holer may not go smoothly either if I hear pounding hooves barreling down on me!

Buffalo = 458LOTT Bolt Rifle, LION= 450/400 to 500NE DOUBLE, ELEPHANT= 470NE or 500NE, LEOPARD= 12GA SHOTGUN.
Adam C.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The Gorilla was not in Zim.

Was the Gorilla you shot in Africa, or an escaped Zoo animal at home in the US? I seem to recall that you've been to Africa once, on your previous Zim hunt. Just curious.

In a real DG charge the animal will be close when the charge starts and moving fast. You will be lucky to get off a 2nd aimed shot with a double before the animal gets to you so forget the 3rd through 5th shot from a bolt gun.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
...and a Gorilla, that charged me from 12 yards that I hit at 6 yards with a bolt 458 [boy did I wish I had my double that day ].

It probably wasn't a pleasant experience at the time but I'll bet this makes for an interesting story! Probably the only gorilla shot in Texas in a LOOONG while. I don't imagine you had the option, but I can't think of anything that would piss off anti-hunters (and many hunters) in your house more than a pair of gorilla hand ash-trays.

Though it may be counterintuitive, it is better to wait to the last second, when the odds of hitting it, effectively, are maximized. In this case it really doesn't matter what the action type.

I think a lot of rifle shooters would benefit by going to their local skeet range and, if there is a Sporting Clays circuit at that range, try the difference in shooting with a double barrel shotgun and a pump for instance. I think most people would find that the double gun is faster on both the first and second shots. Doubles, if correctly fitted to your anatomy, will come to shoulder and cheek faster and on sight because they are better balanced, not as long for the same barrel length, easier to swing at a moving target, because they are made to do exactly that. Single barrel bolt action rifles are generally made with a bias towards long range accuracy from a rested position, it's not the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Though it may be counterintuitive, it is better to wait to the last second, when the odds of hitting it, effectively, are maximized. In this case it really doesn't matter what the action type.

How true!

We shot a lion once, and a lioness charged us. Both I and my PH had her in our sights, and he was shouting "don't shoot! Don't shoot!".

She stopped her charge about 10-12 yards from us, and walked over to where the lion was lying. He then said I could shoot her if I wanted.

I did just that.

Afterwards, I said to him i had her in my scope, and was waiting for her head to fill up the scope, at which point I was going to pull the trigger, regardless of his instructions!

He said "I would have shot her by time too!"

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Though it may be counterintuitive, it is better to wait to the last second, when the odds of hitting it, effectively, are maximized. In this case it really doesn't matter what the action type.

I agree with that 100%.

Canuck

I thank you all for participating in this exchange, please however do keep in mind this, my hypothetical scenario is that the man facing the charge is very, very experienced using both types of rifles, he is using good stuff, it fits his body etc. One of you wrote charges are typically sudden and short so shots 3, 4, and 5 are minimal at best as points to concider. That's the type of answer I am hoping for, one which teaches me the fine details of this type of event, it's why I am hoping 5 or 6 old PRO'S offer their view points. See, I own a bolt 5 shot in .450 Dakota caliber built by http://www.rifleactions.com, (WFF HEIN in Washington State)wearing a synthetic stock by McMillian. I am trying to decide if I should save up for a SEARCY .458 - .510 caliber double, shoot a few hundred rounds thru it under artificially stressed conditions here at home, THEN & ONLY THEN book my P.A.C. ellie hunt.

How does one wait until the last second with 5 animals charging????

My PH & I were in a leopard blind situated at a bottleneck we had failed to recognize, when a group of 30 or more buffalo stampeded through.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
If a guy is equally familiar and able with his .458 Caliber (Lott, Dakota, Wby) bolt action repeater and his .458 S x S double rifle (450 3 1/4, 450 NE, 450 #2 NE) which one will serve him better against a charging BIG FIVE beast?

Almost anyone who knows me will know which way I voted! I handle Bolt rifles as well as anyone I know, and I handle double rifles just as well, so I guess the machanical advantage would be the decideing factor in my case. My personal choice would be about 80 to 20 in favor of a double rifle in a close charge

quote:

He'd likely get off shot #2 quicker with the double, but I'm thinking with a FIVE round bolt action he could fire shot #3, #4 & #5 faster from the bolt gun than he could from the double.

This simply doesn't hold water in practical terms! The second "AIMED" shot is so much faster with a double, than with a bolt rifle, there isn't even a contest here. Nothing is faster for two AIMED shots then a double rifle other than a machine gun. With the third shot being about equal to the bolt in time, and the fourth shot way ahead of the bolt, assuming both shooters are equal in ability.

The fact is, assuming one is on target with his rifle at the start, it takes three moves by the shooter to fire the first two shots with a double, and five for the bolt rifle. As 500 says in the case of a lion, these two is likely all you will get with a double, and only one with the bolt, unless the first shot, from either, knocks the lion off his feet. NOTE, I didn't say KILLED, but knocked off his feet. If this happens but the lion is not killed both rifles MAY get a third shot, but the time saved between the first and second shots with the double over the time taken for the two shots with the bolt, will equalize the time taken to get off a third shot between them. The third shot on a lion chargeing, from even 50 yds, a is not likely with either, but more likely with the double.

NOW! If we are talking Cape Buffalo, we have a little more time, and a easier target to hit well. A Buff chargeing from as little as 15 yds, the double will absolutely get two, and probably get three, if the first two doesn't do the trick, before the bull gets to you. The bolt will likely get two, by the time the bull reaches the shooter if he is not stopped. As Saeed says, if you don't get the job done in the time allowed by the chargeing animal, it matters not, what you failed with, you're still in trouble!

quote:

when a group of 30 or more buffalo stampeded through.

Yikes! Doesn't sound like there was much chance of shooting your way out of that one regardless!!

If you are being charged by 5+ animals (which are intent on eating or stomping you, not just mistakenly fleeing in your direction), I suppose the definition of "last second" could be modified to suit the circumstance!

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

A Buff chargeing from as little as 15 yds, the double will absolutely get two, and probably get three, if the first two doesn't do the trick, before the bull gets to you. The bolt will likely get two, by the time the bull reaches the shooter if he is not stopped.

Mac...no offence, but I don't buy that. Maybe you mis-typed, but I can't possibly see a double rifle shooter getting THREE shots off at a buffalo charging from 15 yards! Refer to my past thread requesting video of double rifle shooters doing 4 shots as quick as they can. Nobody seems to be able to reload these things all that quick.

I won't argue about the quicker second shot...I've seen enough video now of guys shooting 470's and smaller that are pretty quick with a 2nd AIMED shot that I am willing to concede.

Cheers,
Canuck

" I watched Johann Calditz in Botswana walk up to a buffalo in the palm like cover...The buff was down like a dog lying on its legs and it reared up swing around in a flash...In real time it was all a blur..In slow mo you can see the head protrude and Johann dove backwards into the cover firing from betwen his legs..With a 500N.E.Searcy..Johann was between the buffs legs...After the fact you could see he was shook up..He came that close...His hat was under the buff chest...
So on a charge killing shots are what that is needed..

quote:

Yikes! Doesn't sound like there was much chance of shooting your way out of that one regardless!!

100% Correct!

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

Mac...no offence, but I don't buy that. Nobody seems to be able to reload these things all that quick.

Cheers,
Canuck

That is because you don't know me that well,and haven't seen me when I'm in dire need of a second, and third shot, Canuck!

One time in Zimbabwe, we had a learner PH in our camp helping.
He was asked to go make a leopard blind at one of the baits that has been eaten.

At 3 in the morning, we went to sit in the blind. The bait tree was about 70 yards ahead of us, and a few yards behind us there was a valley with water in it. As soon as we made ourslves comfortable, we realised that a herd of elephants were drnking at the water less than 100 yards way from us.

That was not a problem by itself, but, the elephant path that comes up the hill was right where the blind was!

Our PH said he is going to go out and scare the elephants away, just to make sure we get no surprise from them as they come that track!

No, we did not get our leoprad. He did not come to eat. But, the next day we found a herd of elephants close by that bait, and one tuskless cow started chasing us around!

At that time I had a 7mm Lazzeroni, with my 375/404 at the truck. Alan Vincent, volunteered to run to the truck and bring back teh 375/404, so we could shoot that cow.

As soon as arrived, we went looking for the cow, and found that she was looking for us too! One shot between her eyes and that was it.

Canuck,

Take a look at the African Hunter website. There is an article there on the performance of PH canidates for the Zim shooting test. I'd provide a link if I could.

The gist of the relevant portion of the article talks about how when they were designing the test they first restricted the bolt guys to three rounds in the rifle to act as a handicap for the double guys. This portion of the test is scored for speed and acuracy. Turned out the double rifle guys needed no handicap and their five shot (?) times were better than the bolt guys; so were their scores.

If you are familiar with loading a double you won't fall behind a bolt guy for aimed shots. I use a double 12ga for some of my duck hunting and a double 10ga for almost all of my goose hunting. I load from a belt when waterfowling no matter which type of action I'm using.

I'll stake a case of Bud on a contest with a member who lives near enough to me that we can meet. Guns of about equal recoil a given. I'm pretty confident but curious too.

BTW, loading from a belt is the second best, second fastest way to load a double. The best was described by Sureshot. It entails holding two spares in the forward hand, bullets pointing toward the wrist. I can't do this due to an old injury, and I'm comfortable from the belt anyway. But Surestrike told me he did best, in terms of speed in his recent competion, far faster than guys who loaded from a belt. My PH this Oct settled on the same method after trying several as well.

Anyone interested in the contest? We could do it at my hunting club on Maryland's Eastern Shore in the spring. None of the ranges I know of would be accomodating. Say three out of five for five shots. With a witness or two we would find out how it went with shots three and four too.

JPK

PS: I believe in what 500 Grains said 100% and that after two shots its all academic. But as I said I'm curious.

I don't disagree with anything Mac or anybody has said on the subject of which is better a bouble or bolt rifle. I also have no real personal DG charge expereince. What I have seen on safari is guys bringing very spendie doubles that they are not intimately familiar with, the gun is new to them, they have not practiced shooting anywhere near enough, these maybe the only opensighted rifle they own or have ever shot and reloading rather than being instintive is a laborious affair. They also find the guns heavy to carry and recoil heavier.

For an accomplished double rifle nut who uses the rifles regularly I think of course the double is better in a close quarters charge. For the mayority of us who grew up on bolt rifles and scope sights we'd be much more appropriately equipped with what we know.

Double rifles bring out the African nostalgia thing and I also find them very sexy but I know I will never do what is necessary to get good enough with one to take advantage of its positive points. I think a lot of hunters fall into my category and therefore buying a double for safari could be a waste of money and perhaps loose them a chance at a great trophy.

Mark

Mark's comments echo the comments from my PH this past Oct. Apparently guys show up with doubles they have hardly shot. Personally, I can't imagine doing that. I wonder how many guys show up with heavy calibre bolts they have hardly shot too. Maybe they can get by if their back home deer rifle is also a bolt?

On the wieght, I don't think its much of an issue since I think a rifle of X class recoil should weigh about the same no matter what action its built on. I do find a double rifle easier to carry long distances, even to the point that I find my 10 1/2lb double easier to carry than my 9 1/2lb bolt rifle.

JPK

Well , I just can't pass up the opportunity. I would pick a Marlin guide gun in 45-70 loaded with Garrett ammo. One im the chamber and 4 in the tube. 5 shots faster then any bolt gun.

I should have added (and don't know how to edit) that unless after elephant and until the last buff was shot a tracker always carried my 375H&H, while I carried my double. When the big stuff was all in the salt, I carried my 375H&H and the double stayed in the truck.

I've only been on one safari so experience is limited but this program seemed to work very well.

Yes, Joeybones, then you can throw the ammo at the elephant and try to beat him off with your stick for all the good it would do.

That's why all Ph's carry Marlin 45/70's and those cast bullets...


Mike

I carry ammo on the buttstock of my rifles.
I started doing this years ago when I hunted a lot with a Ruger No1. I use the same technique with my doubles, bolt rifles too for that matter. I still carry ammo on my belt.
Even IF a double is slower for the 3rd shot, It will not fail to feed,extract or jam between shots one and two, or 3and 4.
While I do not think you give up much in speed from shots 2 to 3 you gain a lot in reliability, and the handling of a double.
In the 8 years of so I have been using a double I have found the quick one/two has been better that a large magazine.

Saeed, that would be the one that just scares the hell out of me, one looking for me!! I have a fond affection for doubles (shotguns) don't own a dr, but have shot several over the years. However, I see no one has given the fact that maybe the charge doesn't happen until a shot is fired, at that point you only have one shot left, or maybe to play it safe the hunter gives the dg two shots and only piss him off, then your reoading skills are really tested because you are empty. I think Saeed has the right answer, go with what you have the most confindence in and make the first shot count. Bill439

In April, I was on the point tracking a wounded buffalo for 30 hours with a bolt action 404 that I knew to effectively be a single shot (it had developed jamitis on this trip). You talk about a pucker factor -- you couldn't have driven a 10 penny nail up my butt with a sledge hammer! I'm not sure I breathed for the duration of the stalk.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), we lost the blood trail on day three of tracking him.

But I can speak with relative authority that a single shot rifle is NOT the ideal weapon with which to face a charge.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I don't disagree with anything Mac or anybody has said on the subject of which is better a bouble or bolt rifle. I also have no real personal DG charge expereince. What I have seen on safari is guys bringing very spendie doubles that they are not intimately familiar with, the gun is new to them, they have not practiced shooting anywhere near enough, these maybe the only opensighted rifle they own or have ever shot and reloading rather than being instintive is a laborious affair. They also find the guns heavy to carry and recoil heavier.

I agree with Mark on the above statement! Over the years I have seen any number of hunters come into camp with rifles they haven't shot more than enough to zero the scopes in, if that much. The worst offenders on this, are usually those who go buy things like a 460 Wby Magnum, or something similar, three weeks before a Brown bear hunt, or a first Safari for Cape Buffalo. These guys haven't usually shot anything larger than their 30-06 before booking this hunt. Some even come into camp, and want someone to check their rifle for zero! I believe any rifle, that has some recoil, in the hands of a person who is basicly scared to death of it's pounding, is going to make some real mistakes.

Everyone knows that most charges start with a screw up, and this guy is a charge waiting to happen. This isn't the type of rifle, but the type of shooter, that is the problem. I find that most folks who shoot double rifles are generally, shooting them at every oppertunity, and tend to become far more instinctive shooters with there rifles than those who buy very large bore bolt rifles. Of course anyone who is afraid of his rifle is going to be slow, regardless of type. I believe it is a mistake to go on Safari with any rifle you are not up to snuff with.

quote:

For an accomplished double rifle nut who uses the rifles regularly I think of course the double is better in a close quarters charge. For the mayority of us who grew up on bolt rifles and scope sights we'd be much more appropriately equipped with what we know.

That only makes sense! As I said, no rifle will be right, if the guy useing it isn't up to snuff with it! That is why, in my example, in the other post, I said "Assuming" both shooters are equally compitant with their rifle type,of approximent equal recoil, the double will be faster.

quote:

Double rifles bring out the African nostalgia thing and I also find them very sexy but I know I will never do what is necessary to get good enough with one to take advantage of its positive points. I think a lot of hunters fall into my category and therefore buying a double for safari could be a waste of money and perhaps loose them a chance at a great trophy.

Mark

I agree again with Mark! It makes little sense for someone, who doesn't care enough for a double to learn to use one, to spend the money it takes to buy, and learn to use a double rifle well enough to have it become a "NATURAL" when they are hunting in Africa quite effectively with the rifle they are useing. The thought might run quickly through his mind,however, that he might have better chosen a fine double rifle, when he is faced with going into the Elephant grass to sort out a wounded lion!

quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:

quote:

Yikes! Doesn't sound like there was much chance of shooting your way out of that one regardless!!

100% Correct!

Nickudu,

Of course there are always exceptions to the rule. Once I had to use 5 rounds quite rapidly and therefore I always vote for magazine capacity.

I can imagine the situation of several buffalo coming my way, maybe not charging, but about to run me over anyway, and firing fast and furious would seem appropriate.

But I think the vast majority of charges are single animal events and knowing where to shoot and placing the shot effectively will work MOST of the time. But a lot of guys have got killed when it didn't!

Poor Francios that got charged by a buff and got nailed said he should have been shooting when the buff was first sighted and should have kept firing as quickly as possible and as long as he was able. So there you go!

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
In a real DG charge the animal will be close when the charge starts and moving fast. You will be lucky to get off a 2nd aimed shot with a double before the animal gets to you so forget the 3rd through 5th shot from a bolt gun.

By definition.....self defence never happened at 100 yards.....it's a very close and personal thing and the quote by 500 grains is right on IMO

I can't see getting off even the second shot from a bolt gun in this case.

Use the one you use best amongst the ones you use well !

Since this argument has been going on for quite a few decades I think that AR should hold a contest...The best bolt shooter versus the best DR shooter. First to place 4 shots into a target wins. That would be a good video addition to the site. What do you guys think?