quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:
How does one wait until the last second with 5 animals charging????

My PH & I were in a leopard blind situated at a bottleneck we had failed to recognize, when a group of 30 or more buffalo stampeded through.

Is it safe to assume you were both killed, or just you?
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
In a real DG charge the animal will be close when the charge starts and moving fast. You will be lucky to get off a 2nd aimed shot with a double before the animal gets to you so forget the 3rd through 5th shot from a bolt gun.

100% on the money, Grains.
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:
How does one wait until the last second with 5 animals charging????

My PH & I were in a leopard blind situated at a bottleneck we had failed to recognize, when a group of 30 or more buffalo stampeded through.

Is it safe to assume you were both killed, or just you?
Dave

Both of us Dave and thanks for asking! Couldn't get Canuck to bite!

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Though it may be counterintuitive, it is better to wait to the last second, when the odds of hitting it, effectively, are maximized. In this case it really doesn't matter what the action type.
-----------------------------------------------
quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
In a real DG charge the animal will be close when the charge starts and moving fast. You will be lucky to get off a 2nd aimed shot with a double before the animal gets to you so forget the 3rd through 5th shot from a bolt gun.
-----------------------------------------------

500 & WILL - What, in your view is "close" for a charge to originate where you would wait until the last instant to fire or be lucky to get off more than one aimed shot?

Close in my book is under 20 yards. I would like to fire one shot at 15 yards and another at <= 5 yards. With a lion or leopard, that is just not going to happen. With an ele or buff it is possible, however, assuming a guy has himself wired tight that day. Buy things never go as planned.

FWIW, I had two charges this year that I stopped at close range ...... one was a Leopard and the other was a Buff (both obviously previously wounded).... which I stopped at 6 & 7 yards with a bolt action rifle and neither offered me time for a second shot (even if I'd had a double). So in these two particular instances I don't think it would have mattered which I had. As to whether one is better than the other, I'd say it all depends on the individual circumstance and it's probably more a case of individual preference than anything else....... however, I've personally never experienced a charge that would have offered time for a third shot, let alone a forth or fifth.

Although if I were playing the devil's advocate against myself, I might argue that one might possibly be able to get off additional insurance shots slightly faster with a bolt action........

Personally, I'm happy with my bolt action rifle and if I were to ever change it for a double it would have to be a traditional double with a traditional safety catch and not one with a cocking lever.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Close in my book is under 20 yards. I would like to fire one shot at 15 yards and another at <= 5 yards. With a lion or leopard, that is just not going to happen. With an ele or buff it is possible, however, assuming a guy has himself wired tight that day. Buy things never go as planned.

500 - Let's say the charge developes from 45 yards (assuming clear shooting paths). Would you still "like to fire one shot at 15 yards and another at <= 5 yards. "?

Hey Nick...sorry. I was logged in on a coffee break and never got back to the thread until today! Apologies for my insensitivity too...I didn't realize you had been killed in that incident!

FWIW, my opinion on "close" is the same as 500g's, even if the charge develops from 45 yards. This is based on experiencing 3 bear charges (all of which started at 45 yards or more, and 2 of which pulled up at 15 yards), and working in bear country with pepper spray (sadly) for most of my career....NOT based on experience with DG in Africa. I think you can get in more trouble by making a poor shot too early that you can by waiting, in many cases at least.

JMHO,
Canuck

Hi Chris!

I have a theory based on what I have seen afield or read in print that, more often than one might suspect, good shot opportunities are not seezed under duress, regardless of firearm type. This, of course, occuring most often at mid-range, say 45 to 75 yards, where fear of reloading the double or cycling the bolt precludes the taking of an opportunity to do damage, if not actually halt proceedings, before a bang-bang scenario developes. Where either double user or bolt gun user might get off an extra shot, early on, it seems that all too often the double user allows closure to within his "two shot comfort zone" and the bolt user does likewise, prior to the firing of shot one, so that he might cycle and ready himself for the finale. Put another way (this is quite difficult to convey), some shooters resign themselves to fewer good shots in fear of reloading. Keep in mind I comment here of mid-range charges with open shooting lanes.

quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Close in my book is under 20 yards. I would like to fire one shot at 15 yards and another at <= 5 yards. With a lion or leopard, that is just not going to happen. With an ele or buff it is possible, however, assuming a guy has himself wired tight that day. Buy things never go as planned.

500 - Let's say the charge developes from 45 yards (assuming clear shooting paths). Would you still "like to fire one shot at 15 yards and another at <= 5 yards. "?

Before answering the question, I would challenge the premise. Perhaps those really in the know like Ganyana can clarify this, but I do not think true charges of ele or buff often begin at 45 yards or further. Although elephant or even buffalo may run over from such a distance to take a look at you and give a snort, and although they may on occasion provide a mock or demonstration charge from that distance, that is usually not a genuine "I'm gonna squash you" charge. I think the serious type of charge will usually start at 20 yards or less.

So would I shoot at an ele or buff advancing toward me at a run at 45 yards? If I were hunting him then I might. But not in self defense.

With a bolt gun my first shot would be further out to allow for action cycling time. With a double I would like both shots to be inside of 20 yards, with at least one of the shots inside of 10 yards.


This is just an opinion.

Nick,

Your theory is definitely plausible. I can say that from my perspective, that wasn't part of my thought process (ie. fear of reloading). It was more from my experience with unwounded grizzlies....I don't want to shoot it unless I absolutely have to, as many charges are defensive and if they start from a ways out they are frequently bluffs.

If I was charged by a wounded bear, buff, ele or whatever, I would DEFINITELY start shooting as soon as I possibly could (ie. I wouldn't wait til it was close).

With unwounded animals though, regardless of species, I think my natural instinct would be to wait until it was within 15 to 20 yards.

Well, coffee's over again....work work work, back to work....braaaack! (a la Flintstones!)

Cheers,
Chris

500 - I've had a buffalo come from 90 to 100 yards out, just as soon as it discovered us, after the initial shot. It was taken for meat and intentionally shot behind the shoulders. It fell (.416), got up, broke cover and on out into an open area and just stood there, very sick. A few seconds later it spotted us on the heavily shaded hillside and came, taking two more hits from a .458 Lott before getting hung up in a cluster of smallish trees as it reached the hillside, where my PH brained it at perhaps 3 or 4 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Before answering the question, I would challenge the premise. Perhaps those really in the know like Ganyana can clarify this, but I do not think true charges of ele or buff often begin at 45 yards or further. Although elephant or even buffalo may run over from such a distance to take a look at you and give a snort, and although they may on occasion provide a mock or demonstration charge from that distance, that is usually not a genuine "I'm gonna squash you" charge. I think the serious type of charge will usually start at 20 yards or less

So would I shoot at an ele or buff advancing toward me at a run at 45 yards? If I were hunting him then I might. But not in self defense.

I agree fully with the statement above, for the animals listed. Every animal has his own comfort zone, and it is usually measured by the distance from the treat to the animal. As 500 says, an ele or Buff may show interest, and move toward you from even twoo huntred yds. This is simply curiosity, IMO. When either of these animals mives toward you quickly from 75-100 yds, he is usually bluffing, but this can change at any time durring the advance into a real charge, but usually doesn't. Here if he is a trophy you want, then have at it when he stops in the bluff usually at around 40 yds. There are signs as to what either of these two are about to do, but can't always be depended on. If either show no sign of slowing when he reaches 25-30 yds, chances are he's coming! If, however we are talking WOUNDED animals, the war is on, when he starts IMO, and you should shoot when it is right for YOU, depending what type of rifle you are useing. Now let's look at this from a different angle! If, here, we replace the animals with a wounded LION, if he sees you and comes, no matter the distance, it is Saturday night in Souix City, and you better not make a mistake! Nothing but a CNS will stop his advance, and he is fast, and hard to hit!

The good thing about an Elephant is, a good solid hit in the head, with a proper rifle, will usually turn him,giveing you time for other shots, but not always. The buffalo will not be turned, once he starts if wounded, in most cases, leaving you with one choice, kill him, or get a horn up the butt.

I've been around a lot of Brown bears in Alaska, and I find them to be mostly bluffers, unless wounded, or surprised at close range. In the "suprised at close range" sittuation, he is a lot like the lion, fast, and hard to stop, if the first shot isn't a good one. Unless very close, and/or wounded, I don't think he can be compared to dangerous African game. He doesn't take near the horse power to do a lot of damage to him. A good bullet in a 338 Win Mag is fine in a charge with a Brown. I certainly do not want to stand a charge of a Cape Buffalo, with a 338 Win Mag.

quote:

With a bolt gun my first shot would be further out to allow for action cycling time. With a double I would like both shots to be inside of 20 yards, with at least one of the shots inside of 10 yards.


This is just an opinion.

And................ a good opinion, in my opinion!

Gentlemen, use what you want, all have their pros, and cons. There is no question, in the thick of battle, one doesn't always do his best shooting, and Mr. Murphy, will get into the act, if he can. That is the reason one needs the most IDIOT PROOF weapon he can find, for such dances! I choose the double rifle, others may use what ever works for them best!

500 Grains

quote:

With a double I would like both shots to be inside of 20 yards, with at least one of the shots inside of 10 yards.

Exactly my point. You will tend to allow a degree of closure to ensure your "two shot comfort zone", thereby losing the shot of first opportunity, should the charge originate at mid-range. Follow?

I believe in a real charge only a brain, or maybe an upper CNS hit that parylizes, will save your bacon. The reason to wait is to be sure you can hit the brain from the distance the shot is fired.
The double is the only rifle that will give you TWO chances at doing this close up.

I suggest if you want to learn good charge stopping technique you should watch Mark Sullivan's videos. Start with his first one and watch them in order. You will see how he has got better with the technique over time.
If you are lucky you may never have to face a charge, but if you do It is best to have a pre thought out plan.
A "little" high speed close in shooting practice would not hurt either.
PS. Hope that bolt rifle trash works 100%.

N E 450 No2

quote:

I believe in a real charge only a brain, or maybe an upper CNS hit that parylizes, will save your bacon. The reason to wait is to be sure you can hit the brain from the distance the shot is fired.
The double is the only rifle that will give you TWO chances at doing this close up.

Of course. My question is, why wait for two shots when you can possibly have three?

With a DR you have two very high percentage shots (as far as hitting the CNS) within 5-15 yards. I would like to see someone with a bolt rifle pulling off two shots within the same time frame. I would take two high percentage shots with a very small chance of a malfunction over 3 lower percentage shots with a possible jam or short stroke in the middle. Also the supposed advantage of more shots only comes into play in the circumstance where the charge starts in open country from far away. I think its pretty clear.

quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:
N E 450 No2

quote:

I believe in a real charge only a brain, or maybe an upper CNS hit that parylizes, will save your bacon. The reason to wait is to be sure you can hit the brain from the distance the shot is fired.
The double is the only rifle that will give you TWO chances at doing this close up.

Of course. My question is, why wait for two shots when you can possibly have three?

In a 35 -40 yds charge of a buffalo, or ele, there in no reason you can't get off FOUR shots with a double rifle. Now on a lion, that's another story, and your full magazine will not help you here, because you will be lucky to get two off with a bolt rifle, and it is almost a given with a double! BUT HEY, do your thing! I'm hopeing to miss the opertunity to prove my theory in a lion charge, but have done it on Buffalo, from less than 30 yds!

quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:
500 Grains

quote:

With a double I would like both shots to be inside of 20 yards, with at least one of the shots inside of 10 yards.

Exactly my point. You will tend to allow a degree of closure to ensure your "two shot comfort zone", thereby losing the shot of first opportunity, should the charge originate at mid-range. Follow?

Yes, given the limitations of the hypothetical. But I think that very few real charges from buff or ele begin at 45 yards.

So the question for me is which rifle will permit me to get off more aimed shots during a real life charge. And since real life charges start closer than 45 yards, the answer for me is a double.

Nickudu,

If the animal isn't already wounded there is no mid range, for real, charge that you can yet discern. If he's coming from fifty yards unwounded you can't know its a real charge, yet. I believe that is what 500 Grains was talking about, at least that is how I took it.

If it charges from 40 or 50 yards you are bound to wait it out, if its not your target, perhaps backing out as he approaches, to see if its a bluff or mere curiosity...

If its wounded, the shooting would start at the very first oportunity for me. And I believe in that situation that for the guy with the double rifle it would be most prudent to shoot one, reload one, shoot one, reload one, shoot one, shoot two. Assuming their is time for the middle reload. But saving the last two for inside twenty yards, no matter how many were gotten off when the animal is further out and coming. Loading one cartridge is very quick, fwiw.

BTW, we were treated in Oct to a full blown charge by a cow elephant from 75yds. We had just left the truck to take a walk looking for a warthog. We made it the twenty five yards back to the truck with just a couple yards to spare.

We were also charged from 70 yards by an old scrum cap buff when we suprised him, while in the truck, at a spring where we had a leopard bait. He was hurting so he gave up after 50 or 60 yards, standing and staring at us. When he turned to leave we could see lion scares on his neck and flanks.

JPK

quote:

Of course. My question is, why wait for two shots when you can possibly have three?

Nick, Per my message above, I am still wondering if you are referring to "unprovoked" charges, wounded game charges or both? And do you concede a difference in approach for both?

I thought I answered your question, although somewhat indirectly.

JPK, I agree with your comments above.

MAC, I will only believe a double rifle shooter can get 4 shots off in the course of a 35 to 40 yard charge once I have witnessed it with my own eyes! I'll concede that one in a thousand might be able to pull it off though!

Cheers,
Canuck

What's the word I'm trying to think of?

Hearsay.

Yeah, that's it.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
What's the word I'm trying to think of?

Hearsay.

Yeah, that's it.

I know, we have to wait for the book. Are you taking pre-orders for signed copies?

Sure. I should have them in hand next Friday.

$49.95 + $5 postage.

P.O. Box 104
Spring Hill, Kansas 66083

I was assuming wounded game. Sorry if unclear.

I am favoring neither bolt or double rifle. Sorry if unclear.

I am merely posturing that under duress a lot of hunters, regardless of rifle type, wait for closure when they should be shooting.

Good Night All!

What book are you guys talking about?

quote:

What book are you guys talking about?

Will has just had one published.

quote:

I was assuming wounded game. Sorry if unclear.

I am merely posturing that under duress a lot of hunters, regardless of rifle type, wait for closure when they should be shooting.

Then we are in FULL agreement!

Cheers!
Chris

I am glad I started this discussion, I have learned alot! Thank you all for the input, and for tolerating me as I am brand new here and not to good at this computer stuff. NE 450 #2, we had a private couple of exchanges, I am trying to find my way back to them. By the way, I am gonna save up for the SEARCY DOUBLE. Now to another thought. Facing the charging elephant is one better served by the fairly new KRIEGHOFF 500/416 caliber @ 400 grain weight, which is supposed to do near 2400 feet per second, or the classic 500 Nitro Express, 570 grain weight at 2150 feet per second?

Whats the book about?

Go for the 500, Over 100 years and still goin strong.

I started a NEW thread for my caliber choice question guys, thanks for everything.