Rather than have this discussion in the middle of another hunter's thread, it seems worth starting a thread of its own.
With the advent of video cameras popping up everywhere and of course the treat of regular African hunting shows on television, the detailed photographic records of gun handling have multiplied. While the videos are of course intended to capture the memories and excietments of the hunt, they also reveal just how easy it is for even the most experienced hunters AND PHs to sweep others in the party with the muzzles of their guns.
I know, sometimes it is the camera angle that makes an incident look more dangerous than it actually was. But I suspect there is a whole lot of self denial going on among both clients and PHs on this subject.
And especially in the case of PHs who by the nature of African hunting tend so often to be directly ahead of the client, reviewing the video closely must surely cause the hair on the backs of their necks to stand up as they realize "Shit, I could have been shot there, and there and there ...."
On last week's "Tracks" in the Caprivi, it looked also like the PH's African carry swept the client or at least the camera man more than once.
It would be instructive to assemble 30 or 40 videos shot for clients, as well as 30 or 40 commercial episodes and analyze them carefully for gun handling. The result might be a chance for all of us to make sobering reassessments of our gun handling in the field, to become more aware of how easy it is to sweep especially in certain circumstances and with certain carries. The crouching close follow seems to be a particularly frequent culprit.
And if this information was disseminated and taken to heart, we might just end up with fewer fund raisers for injured PHs.
What do you all think?

Bill

The DVD experience is here to stay.

Before taking my first safari, i purchased many different DVD of African Safaris and tried to learn something from each of them...

From Shooting set up, the call to take the shot and of as you have brought to light rifle handling.

If you take a look at the DVD's ratings you will see rifle handling being rated. Very few obtain a rating above 8 on a scale of 10. some fall to as low a 5 from the one i have looked at.

I am sure that a training video using field footage would be useful and eye opening. Anything we do to bring safety to a higher level of conciousness is helpful. As a hunter ed instructor, I hope each student in each class remembers the muzzle part and the trigger part of the ten commandments of gun safety on a concious level. Guns, like chainsaws and automobiles, are inherently dangerous and deserve respect. But, dangerous game and dangerous equipment will result in injured hunters, both professional and amateur. Like you, I hope we can see less fundraisers for injured ones.


Tom

Bill

Sweeping is why I now carry my rifle with a sling on my shoulder. That African carry will eventually have you pointing your rifle at someone no matter how careful you are. If we are in the thick shit or on a planned final stalk I just take off the sling and carry the rifle ready in both hands.

Soon after Roger Whittal tragically shot his tracker while using the African carry with his 465 H&H I hunted with one of his close friends. This PH since Roger's accident was carrying his 470 with the muzzles pointed backward or more specifically at the hunintg party behind him. I bet those double 470 muzzles were trained on my head 100 times during that hunt. Quite scary to say the least. This was early in my safari career and as anovice I said nothing. Now I would be howling my extreme disapproval.

Mark

It almost makes me wonder if the rifles are unloaded when they are shooting the video sequences, it's as if they have taken on a much looser attitude.

I personally always use a sling, however I was told that slings can cause problems in thick cover now couple that with DG and it could be a recipe for disaster, but if disaster is to be I can't think of anything worst than shooting some person accidentally

Well, this brings up another pet peeve of mine.

First, I regard the "African carry" as just as impractical and stylized as the TV shoot-em-ups where the "cool" guys hold their handguns sideways. In other words, it is not a normal or practical way to carry a rifle, but rather a "style" which hunters in Africa seem to have adopted to say "I'm and African hunter!" As this thread has discussed, carrying a rifle in the horizontal plane necessarily means that it will regularly be pointed at something you don't want a rifle pointed at.

Secondly, I can't stand to see someone handling a rifle with his sweaty palms on the BLUED METAL, as one must in the "African Carry" position. It just sends me into convulsions. Anyone with any sense knows that you don't touch blued metal any more than absolutely necessary, particularly not with sweaty hands, and after touching it you wipe it down as soon as possible. Sheeesh!

Most particularly when hunting in close proximity to others, as in a tracking party, rifles should be carried on slings, muzzles constantly skyward.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Well, this brings up another pet peeve of mine.

First, I regard the "African carry" as just as impractical and stylized as the TV shoot-em-ups where the "cool" guys hold their handguns sideways. In other words, it is not a normal or practical way to carry a rifle, but rather a "style" which hunters in Africa seem to have adopted to say "I'm and African hunter!" As this thread has discussed, carrying a rifle in the horizontal plane necessarily means that it will regularly be pointed at something you don't want a rifle pointed at.

Secondly, I can't stand to see someone handling a rifle with his sweaty palms on the BLUED METAL, as one must in the "African Carry" position. It just sends me into convulsions. Anyone with any sense knows that you don't touch blued metal any more than absolutely necessary, particularly not with sweaty hands, and after touching it you wipe it down as soon as possible. Sheeesh!

Most particularly when hunting in close proximity to others, as in a tracking party, rifles should be carried on slings, muzzles constantly skyward.

You think all those folks carrying rifles like that all do it for show?? you dont think that after slogging 10 miles that they might think... to heck with the show?? It iis the most comfortable way for some people to carry a heavy rifle that thhey dont want to put a sling on. Where they point the muzzles is up to the carrier....

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Well, this brings up another pet peeve of mine.

First, I regard the "African carry" as just as impractical and stylized as the TV shoot-em-ups where the "cool" guys hold their handguns sideways. In other words, it is not a normal or practical way to carry a rifle, but rather a "style" which hunters in Africa seem to have adopted to say "I'm and African hunter!" As this thread has discussed, carrying a rifle in the horizontal plane necessarily means that it will regularly be pointed at something you don't want a rifle pointed at.

Most particularly when hunting in close proximity to others, as in a tracking party, rifles should be carried on slings, muzzles constantly skyward.

Really? I might agree with you to some extent concerning a scoped bolt rifle but when it comes to a double, the African Carry is the absolute most comfortable method of carrying a heavy rifle. If you balance it just right, one hardly feels the weight. And again, properly done, the rifle does not point forward at the hunting party but rather off to 45 degrees and clear of the others. Should the line swing in the direction of the muzzles, they are easily moved further to the right or left, depending on the shoulder, or temporarily pointed straight down by pulling the muzzles into the chest. You have total control and awareness of where the muzzles are at all times.

With a sling, yea most of the time the muzzles are pointed to the sky. But when ducking for branches or going up or down a steep incline, you have no idea of where those muzzles are and I don't know how many times I've looked right down the barrel of a rifle being carried on a sling by the guy in front of me.

The discussion of Mr. Whittal's accident is certainly relevant. However, Ant was shot this year by a client's rifle that apparently fell to the ground and discharged when the sling or sling swivel broke. A sling is not a guaranteed safe carry method.

Come on guys. We've beat this dead horse until it's just about ready to get up and run! It isn't the carry method as much as it is the guy carrying the rifle and paying attention to what he is doing with the rifle at all times. There is no fool proof method of carry that can just be put on the shoulder and forgotten about. Awareness of the muzzles is required at all times regardless of which carry method is used.

having separated shoulder i always use a sling if for no other reason that comfort. BUT unless i'm sneaking up on something my gun is always unloaded. just a habit perhaps, but it is the safest way

Todd,

I know you for one disagree but I only load my gun when I feel I am entering a danger zone and this could simply be thick grass or thicket. My hand cups the trigger guard and therefore protects the trigger until it is needed. Otherwise it is empty on a sling or shoulder. I will do the same with my double. If a Buffalo falls on my head then so be it but I am not going to shoot anyone.

Then again I hunt open country and do not have too worry much about tree climbing buff.

I will probably never get to Africa, but the point is the same...

A long time ago I discovered the best way for me to carry a slung rifle was muzzle down, with the off hand on the forend. Mounting was quick if necessary, and the sling was already "wrapped" around the offside arm if/when the rifle was shouldered, ready for the shot.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Todd,

I know you for one disagree but I only load my gun when I feel I am entering a danger zone and this could simply be thick grass or thicket. My hand cups the trigger guard and therefore protects the trigger until it is needed. Otherwise it is empty on a sling or shoulder. I will do the same with my double. If a Buffalo falls on my head then so be it but I am not going to shoot anyone.

Then again I hunt open country and do not have too worry much about tree climbing buff.

Andrew, you and I do disagree on the gun loaded vs unloaded issue. I respect your opinion for sure. When I'm not in DG country, there is no reason not to. However, every PH I've hunted with in Africa to date, 11 of them so far, have instructed me to load up as soon as we get out of the cruiser.

You certainly have MUCH more experience than I but I did witness a situation this October in which an unloaded gun could have spelled disaster. Driving into camp, a cow elephant took offense to our cruiser and came out of nowhere from the jesse and charged us. She ran after us for 100 yards dead set on mischief. Some pics of this are in my recent hunt report. Any hunter walking by in her vicinity with an unloaded gun would have been squashed.

But Andrew, my commets above really have more to do with my opinion that a slung gun is no more safe than an African carried gun. Many here believe they can simply put the rifle on a sling and that's it. I disagree. I've said it several times, I've looked down the barrel of numerous rifles that were being carried on a sling. It's no guarantee that you won't sweep the other guy. With the African carry, I know where my muzzles are because I'm constantly thinking about them. With the sling, not so much! IMO, it matters not if the gun is loaded or not, muzzle control must always be utmost in the hunter's thoughts. Putting the sling over the shoulder tends to put that focus a bit further down the list of priorities.

I have to agree that the "Africa" carry gives the hunter the most control over the muzzle, or muzzles. With the hand wrapped around the muzzle, I have instant control of it should I need to change position. A slung rifle can be caught by a branch, pivoting the muzzle rearward, right at the person behind me. Wearing a glove eliminates the problem with sweat on blued steel, if that sort of thing bothers you.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
I will probably never get to Africa, but the point is the same...

A long time ago I discovered the best way for me to carry a slung rifle was muzzle down, with the off hand on the forend. Mounting was quick if necessary, and the sling was already "wrapped" around the offside arm if/when the rifle was shouldered, ready for the shot.

I have carried rifles this way for 35 yrs.




In the vehicle we carry weapons magazine loaded-chamber empty. when we get out and head into the brush its time to load the chamber.

since i always use camp rifles, i never worry about sweaty palms- it ain't my gun!
and i have noticed that about half the rifles i have used have slings and the other half didn't... seems that to the Ph's it really doesn't matter. it's all about muzzle control.

Muzzle control my ass.

If a ten-pound double rifle, the mass of which is centered over one's shoulder, is bumped by a branch, or begins to slide off the shoulder due to the carrier's foot falling into a pothole, or something similar to upset the its rather delicately balanced position, then the carrier's wrist in no way has the strength to control the attitude of the gun due to grasping the gun (by the slick metal) so far from its center of gravity. In other words, if the gun, for whatever reason, starts to slide from the shoulder, then it's going to go just about wherever gravity takes it.

Besides, I can't think of a slower position from which to get a gun into shooting position should the need arise.

But what do I know? They didn't even play the rhythmic drum music during my stalks on African game like they do on the high class safaris seen on TV. Nor did the happy natives take off their Reeboks and dance in celebration of my kills. Maybe someday I'll get to go on a real African hunt and learn to carry my rifle the cool way.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Todd,

I know you for one disagree but I only load my gun when I feel I am entering a danger zone and this could simply be thick grass or thicket. My hand cups the trigger guard and therefore protects the trigger until it is needed. Otherwise it is empty on a sling or shoulder. I will do the same with my double. If a Buffalo falls on my head then so be it but I am not going to shoot anyone.

Then again I hunt open country and do not have too worry much about tree climbing buff.

Andrew, you and I do disagree on the gun loaded vs unloaded issue. I respect your opinion for sure. When I'm not in DG country, there is no reason not to. However, every PH I've hunted with in Africa to date, 11 of them so far, have instructed me to load up as soon as we get out of the cruiser.

You certainly have MUCH more experience than I but I did witness a situation this October in which an unloaded gun could have spelled disaster. Driving into camp, a cow elephant took offense to our cruiser and came out of nowhere from the jesse and charged us. She ran after us for 100 yards dead set on mischief. Some pics of this are in my recent hunt report. Any hunter walking by in her vicinity with an unloaded gun would have been squashed.

But Andrew, my commets above really have more to do with my opinion that a slung gun is no more safe than an African carried gun. Many here believe they can simply put the rifle on a sling and that's it. I disagree. I've said it several times, I've looked down the barrel of numerous rifles that were being carried on a sling. It's no guarantee that you won't sweep the other guy. With the African carry, I know where my muzzles are because I'm constantly thinking about them. With the sling, not so much! IMO, it matters not if the gun is loaded or not, muzzle control must always be utmost in the hunter's thoughts. Putting the sling over the shoulder tends to put that focus a bit further down the list of priorities.

Todd you have more experience with Doubles than I and indeed over the shoulder is the way to carry. I use a sling because I cannot handle gun, binos and sticks at the same time.

As you state it is all about muzzle awareness and control. Mental preparation.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Muzzle control my ass.

If a ten-pound double rifle, the mass of which is centered over one's shoulder, is bumped by a branch, or begins to slide off the shoulder due to the carrier's foot falling into a pothole, or something similar to upset the its rather delicately balanced position, then the carrier's wrist in no way has the strength to control the attitude of the gun due to grasping the gun (by the slick metal) so far from its center of gravity. In other words, if the gun, for whatever reason, starts to slide from the shoulder, then it's going to go just about wherever gravity takes it.

Besides, I can't think of a slower position from which to get a gun into shooting position should the need arise.

Bullshit... sorry, that was a sneeze.

My wrist is plenty strong enough thanks...

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Todd,

I know you for one disagree but I only load my gun when I feel I am entering a danger zone and this could simply be thick grass or thicket. My hand cups the trigger guard and therefore protects the trigger until it is needed. Otherwise it is empty on a sling or shoulder. I will do the same with my double. If a Buffalo falls on my head then so be it but I am not going to shoot anyone.

Then again I hunt open country and do not have too worry much about tree climbing buff.

Andrew, you and I do disagree on the gun loaded vs unloaded issue. I respect your opinion for sure. When I'm not in DG country, there is no reason not to. However, every PH I've hunted with in Africa to date, 11 of them so far, have instructed me to load up as soon as we get out of the cruiser.

You certainly have MUCH more experience than I but I did witness a situation this October in which an unloaded gun could have spelled disaster. Driving into camp, a cow elephant took offense to our cruiser and came out of nowhere from the jesse and charged us. She ran after us for 100 yards dead set on mischief. Some pics of this are in my recent hunt report. Any hunter walking by in her vicinity with an unloaded gun would have been squashed.

But Andrew, my commets above really have more to do with my opinion that a slung gun is no more safe than an African carried gun. Many here believe they can simply put the rifle on a sling and that's it. I disagree. I've said it several times, I've looked down the barrel of numerous rifles that were being carried on a sling. It's no guarantee that you won't sweep the other guy. With the African carry, I know where my muzzles are because I'm constantly thinking about them. With the sling, not so much! IMO, it matters not if the gun is loaded or not, muzzle control must always be utmost in the hunter's thoughts. Putting the sling over the shoulder tends to put that focus a bit further down the list of priorities.

Todd you have more experience with Doubles than I and indeed over the shoulder is the way to carry. I use a sling because I cannot handle gun, binos and sticks at the same time.

As you state it is all about muzzle awareness and control. Mental preparation.

Andrew, I use a sling at times as well. Usually if action is not immediately anticipated. I can certainly agree with your statement about needing to handle gun, binos, and sticks at the same time. I'm not intending to come off as anti-sling. Really just stating that the African carry method isn't unsafe when done correctly and by that I mean always keeping the muzzles 45 degrees or offset from the line ahead. It forces the hunter to think of the muzzles at all times because you are actively handling the gun vs a somewhat out of sight, out of mind situation with the sling. Then you bend down or go down a steep incline and without even knowing it, the muzzles sweep your partner.

Contrary to Stonecreek's statement, I also find the African carry method the absolute fastest method carry for getting the rifle into action. He and I must be doing something differently.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Todd,

I know you for one disagree but I only load my gun when I feel I am entering a danger zone and this could simply be thick grass or thicket. My hand cups the trigger guard and therefore protects the trigger until it is needed. Otherwise it is empty on a sling or shoulder. I will do the same with my double. If a Buffalo falls on my head then so be it but I am not going to shoot anyone.

Then again I hunt open country and do not have too worry much about tree climbing buff.

Totally agree. I have a pretty long record of saying the odds of being shot are at least equal to some maniacal buffalo stomping you out of nowhere, and this year has proven that in spades.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Todd,

I know you for one disagree but I only load my gun when I feel I am entering a danger zone and this could simply be thick grass or thicket. My hand cups the trigger guard and therefore protects the trigger until it is needed. Otherwise it is empty on a sling or shoulder. I will do the same with my double. If a Buffalo falls on my head then so be it but I am not going to shoot anyone.

Then again I hunt open country and do not have too worry much about tree climbing buff.

Beware opening and closing your double all day long while moving through the field. Every time you open it, it is a chance for dust and debris to get in there and foul the action. I have found carrying a double for weeks and months at a time is a lot different to a bolt gun. This year my gun was looking to jam when I tried to close it (not forcibly), so I pulled it down and found a tiny tiny twig had fallen into the lug recesses, perhaps while I was carring it broken open or unloading while walking out of brush.... I still carry it unloaded at certain times but I will never abide a sling.

quote:

Beware opening and closing your double all day long while moving through the field. Every time you open it, it is a chance for dust and debris to get in there and foul the action. I have found carrying a double for weeks and months at a time is a lot different to a bolt gun. This year my gun was looking to jam when I tried to close it (not forcibly), so I pulled it down and found a tiny tiny twig had fallen into the lug recesses, perhaps while I was carring it broken open or unloading while walking out of brush.... I still carry it unloaded at certain times but I will never abide a sling.

Sage advice Matt.

I guess we all have our differing styles but almost all African PHs whom I have known will diligently clean their weapons at the end of every hunting day. I most certainly do and have always offered the same attention to the client's rifles when I see they have been in a state of neglect.

I make it simple for others. When you hunt with me carry your rifle any way you please. Let the muzzles point at me and you will get a stern but friendly warning and I don't care if your a client or PH. Point it at me a second time and you are very likely to get a punch in the nose!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Todd,

I know you for one disagree but I only load my gun when I feel I am entering a danger zone and this could simply be thick grass or thicket. My hand cups the trigger guard and therefore protects the trigger until it is needed. Otherwise it is empty on a sling or shoulder. I will do the same with my double. If a Buffalo falls on my head then so be it but I am not going to shoot anyone.

Then again I hunt open country and do not have too worry much about tree climbing buff.

Beware opening and closing your double all day long while moving through the field. Every time you open it, it is a chance for dust and debris to get in there and foul the action. I have found carrying a double for weeks and months at a time is a lot different to a bolt gun. This year my gun was looking to jam when I tried to close it (not forcibly), so I pulled it down and found a tiny tiny twig had fallen into the lug recesses, perhaps while I was carring it broken open or unloading while walking out of brush.... I still carry it unloaded at certain times but I will never abide a sling.

Sound advise mate.

Cheers

I make it simple for others. When you hunt with me carry your rifle any way you please. Let the muzzles point at me and you will get a stern but friendly warning and I don't care if your a client or PH. Point it at me a second time and you are very likely to get a punch in the nose!

465H&H
Posts: 4811 | Location: Nampa, Idaho | Registered: 10 February 2005 IP

+1

I own a shooting range where we train people to prevail in a gunfight. You would be surprised how unsafe professionals often are.

I carry my rifle with a sling and my right hand on the butt. This way, I ALWAYS know where the muzzle is pointed.

If we think we're near game, I carry it in both hands. I have never had the sling catch in the brush or anything.

The African carry is unsafe for clients to use for the simple reason that usually you are walking behind the PH and maybe three trackers. These guys don't have the"courtesy" to always stand in a line, so sooner or later you will sweep some of them.

Certain insecticides remove bluing from rifles. My most recent PH had a beautiful Westly Richards (Los Angeles version) double with the bluing worn off the barrels for this reason.