Because of the Canadian guide being killed by a buffalo's surprize charge while hunting a lessor kudu the statement was made that in Africa always carry a DG caliber rifle. Of course, the unfortunate man probably never had time to react in getting a shot off himself no-matter what gun he carried. As we all know a buff or even a deer for that matter, outside of a brain or spine shot, are very unlikely to go down in a heep at the shot whatever caliber is used. At that extremely close range you would be just as well off with a standard deer caliber in going for a head or spine shot(neck or between the shoulder blades from above), the boss-shot probably being the only real advantage to a DG rifle in-hand at that moment. Certainly the PH "has" to be armed with a DG rifle when in DG country just to be sensible. On another thread where a PH was wounded by the client while being attacked by a buff, well what's the alternative? If something bad and nasty has you down, you "will" be begging for someone to shoot the dam thing just like the PH in "Through the cross-hairs"(hope that's right) was doing when that lion made contact. You just have to hope your help keeps his aim away from your anatomy.

I think this is one of the reasons many people like the 375 H&H in Africa....works for everything.

IF you are not going to hunt plains game with a proper DG rifle a good idea would be to use a heavy for caliber premium bullet that would shoot through a buffalo's head. If in elephant country I would also carry some solids.
When hunting plains with my 9,3x74R double rifle in Zim this June [I had a 450 No2 for the big stuff but only caried it when specifically looking for buff or elephant] the first time we encountered elephants on an impala stalk the PH turned to me and said "Load 2 solids please".
After this incident anytime we encountered elephants [which was quite a bit they are everywhere ] I would always load 2 solids. This is another nice thing about a double rifle, it is easy and SILENT to change ammo.
You would not have time to change ammo if you encounter a sudden charge, but with premium bullets you would at least have a good chance on a buffalo brain shot.
As to the solids, I felt quite a bit better when elephants were about when they were in the rifle. I ALWAYS carried 8 solids for the 9,3 when plains game hunting.

If hunting in country were dangerous game is, then carrying a capable rifle is good advise..A 9.3x62, 338 Win. or a 375 is not a bad idea...Put about 5 solids in your belt...

You can carry something like a .375 H&H for everything if you want to, and some guys even carry some flavor of .416 for the whole works. I've carried only a .375 H&H before myself, and with excellent results.

Quite honestly though, I'd still rather carry a combination of two rifles if buffalo and lion are on the menu or in the neighborhood: either a .300 Win. or .338 Win., plus a .416 Remington or Rigby.

I'll be damned if I'm going to run scared and carry just a .416 or .458 -- or something even bigger -- for everything from Thompson's gazelle to bull elephant.

Hunters have met with tragic, freakish ends in Africa for a long time. It's nothing new.........

AD

Mr. Day--Not sure I follow you. You speak of carrying 2 rifles. Surely you don't do that literally, meaning that your tracker or one of the hands is carrying the other? If so, then in time of quick need, I contend it's not very handy or available, hence might as well be back at the wagon, hence might as well be back in camp or at home. I reckon what I'm saying is that having 2 guns in DG country, one a plains game caliber, the other a DG caliber, doesn't seem to be an advantage, other than a spare gun.

I think everyone is confused by the statement that one should carry an adiquate rifle when in DG country, eventhough he is hunting plains game! Nobody means to carry a 500NE to hunt dik dik, but to carry a rifle that will give you a fair chance of comeing out on top if the need arrises!

I do not consider a 338 win mag, 9.3X74R, 9.3X62, or a 375 H&H to be over gunned in places where there is an abundence of Buffalo, or Lion about! All those chamberings are fine for any plains game, but with proper bullets, and good shooting will handle a Buffalo, or Lion, if you step on one by accident! The rounds, and many like them, listed above, will shoot flat enough to take very small antilope at African ranges, and are welcome added power for things like Eland, or wildebeest. These are not big bore chamberings, but medium bore, with the largest of them, not overly heavy to carry,or haveing undue recoil. Any one of them will take even ele with a heavy for cal solid, and good shot placement. This will only be used for these animals in an emergency, and the little, if anything, you give up in long range accuracy, is a fair trade off for the added security over a little 30-06, or 7mm .

I simply don't see how one can object to such a small move, in the form of insuance, one makes by carrying an adiquate rifle! It is not a matter of being scared, it is a matter of being prepared to take charge if the need arrises, nothing more!

I've done just what Allen suggested on several occasions...let one of the trackers pack my second rifle. If you have time to make the switch before the shit hits the fan it works wonderfully. But most of the time you won't have time, so why bother.

Either you are willing to take the risk of being undergunned IF something big and mean jumps up at your feet, or you're not. Like Allen, I refuse to walk around the bush packing a cannon just so I can feel prepared for anything. My life insurance is paid up and I can handle my rifles, if I have any time at all to shoot and still get hammered I will have no regrets.

Tried the 375H&H and the 338 as a light rifle on different safaris. Absolutely not my idea of a good plains game rifles for the places I hunted. In Zimbabwe or other well forested areas they might have worked better, but the east African plains just didn't endear them to me. YMMV.

First time something tries to seriously step on you guys, I can hear that tune changing!

All I can say, is, the two-rifle battery has worked for me before, and likely will again. It's worked for a lot of guys. Like John says, have a tracker carry your big rifle, and you'll have both guns in the Landcruiser in any event.

The idea of using a some big bore pumpkin roller like the Lott or a .416 in places like Tanzania for plainsgame really sucks in my opinion, and my experience is that something like a .300 of some sort is tailor-made for many of the long shots that are encountered.

But by all means, if you feel more secure with a really big bore for the whole shootin' match, have at it. There's no law against it.

AD

AD,

I figured that would goose you into a reply!

Norbert claims he uses his 458 Lott for EVERYTHING. I, myself, have whimped out with a 416.

How about mrlexma's lion? A lion of 500 lifetimes!!

I've always taken 2 guns, some combination of 300 win mag, 375, 416 rem mag and 450 dakota. Not anymore. I'm downsizing to just one rifle, a 416 weatherby that is currently in process.
Plenty of trajectory for long range, plenty of knockdown for close range. I'm into simplicity.

Wes

Will, that lion is simply fantastic. I like the sounds of that hunt!

AD

I owned a 416Wby for a brief period of time..a very brief period. Absolutely too much recoil for me, even for 50yd shots at big targets. If you can handle it well enough to hit small goat sized targets at 350+yds my hat is off to you sir...because I damned sure ain't worthy!

Reminds me of tracking them in the Chobe area of Botswana, many years ago when their game dept. wasn't anti-hunting as they are now. Great lion!

The chances of such an event are so remote that its ridiculas..Sure it can happen but lightening can strike you also....But since it happened recently it is the topic of the day...and if your in DG country someone will be packing a heavy caliber I assume...and I am not saying its not a good idea to pack a medium gun for plainsgame that's capable fo stopping a whatever in a pinch, in DG country, it probably is...

I have no problem with having the tracker pack my heavy and me carrying a 30-06, and I could probably stop anything but an elephant with the 06 and a 180 or 200 gr. Nosler...If one is concerned about elephant then nothing short of a 375 with solids will work...perhaps a 338 or 9.3 with solids, but if I were in thickly populated elephant country and concerned about it, then I would just take a 404 or 416 and shoot everything with it...It's not something that I am concerned about when in the bush...

Keep in mind that the recent event probably happened and was over with in a split second and nothing would have stopped it any sooner. Even though the bullet that killed the bull also wounded the PH, it also saved his life, not a bad trade off IMO...

This thread has taken one of those "turns" that leaves it open to divergent points of view that somehow make sense. Personally I LOVED my plains game only hunt as my really first african hunt( I don't count the one I went with my dad and uncle as a teeager). In a twelve day hunt, I took 7 animals, exceeding ALL my expectations.

Next year, I'm going on a buffalo hunt, with "plains game" also on the menu, although I question the validity of a bushbuck being a "plains game" per se. That is my second "target of interest." I'll also shoot impala, another warthog, bushpig and another zebra. Like I posted previously, once the buff is on the hook, the 416 goes to one of the trackers and my 300 H&H will be my primary gun, feeling totally comfortable that John Sharp will be able to cover any contingency.

I guess there is no right answer here, but again in my opinion, hunting plains game with an over 40 bore is bordering on, well, overly cautious. jorge

Mac, have you hunted Tanzania and Namibia?

AD

I have shot most of my African animals with my 375 and think it is nearly perfect. I like the idea that I can take a shot with the animal standing in any position. This ability has allowed me to shoot eland,zebra and red hartebeast with a quartering away shot with no worries. I also took a mountain zebra with Steve Tors in Namibia at what he estimated at a little over 400 yards. That shot took place after a long day of climbing and no way to get any closer.

My 375 is my light rifle and for me it is perfect.

Mike

Mac,

I am not objecting to this man's desire to use his 416Wby as a do-all rifle for safari use IF he can handle it. And for you, biased towards the buffalo as you are, I think your choices are just fine. I was just saying that I personally couldn't handle that level of recoil, and I don't believe most hunters could either. What Allen and myself have said is that we don't believe in carrying a big rifle just because of the proximity to dangerous game, ie the "just in case" scenario that happens so very rarely. We also prefer to use smaller rifles because they are easier to shoot well...at any range...something even the most ardent big bore fanatic would be hard pressed to deny. We've also seen virtually no difference in the results on game, when compared to larger calibers. And, if you've hunted the Masai plains or in Namibia for their specialized trophies, I think you'd better understand our penchant for flatter shooting ordinance.

Unlike yourself, many of us enjoy hunting select species of plains game and will spend a good deal of time and effort doing it. Things like gerenuk, lesser kudu, Kafue and black lechwe, situtunga etc are highly sought after and frankly, much harder to obtain than a buffalo, and a good deal more costly too.

Depending upon where in Africa you've hunted, you might have had long range opp's and chose not to take them, possibly because you place so little emphasis on them. I, and a number of others do place a great amount of emphasis on them, and carrying a 375 or similar to shoot them with is not, in my mind, the best choice. That's not saying it won't work.

MacD37 pretty much summed up my feelings [Great minds think alike ] Africa for me is about Elephants, Buffalo and the Cats. Every thing else is just icing on the cake.
My 450 No2 and my 9,3x74R [the 9,3 with scope] both doubles were a perfect battery for the area in ZIM that I hunted.
Allen does have a point, some places you just might need a long range rifle for that "icing on the cake". If I ever go to one of those places I may need a new Chapuis Double in 300 win Mag.
In fact a Chapuis with a set of 300 Win Mag bbls and a set of 375 H&H bbls would be a good rifle to test the use of modern cartridges with a modern designed/constructed double rifle.
DARE to be different.

Any gun in my hands is a DG gun!! Kidding, very much so. :-)

If I am ever able to go to Africa for plains game I am taking my 35 Whelen AI. I don't think it qualifies as a DG rifle, but if I go to Africa I'll have my stepfather at my back and he'll most likely be carrying the new 416 Taylor he is getting for Christmas, and he is a MUCH BETTER SHOT than I am. I agree with Ray, if I were in DG game country I would get a bearer to carry my 458 for me, if I didn't have time to get that gun I doubt that I had enough time for it to make a big enough difference.

But then again, can any of you really listen to a guy that only has arm chair safari experience? :-)

Red

Dago Red
Do not sell that 35 Whelen of yours short. I recommend you read John Taylors rifle books and "The Rifle, Its Development for Big Game Hunting" by S.R. Truesdell.
The 400/350 [.350 Rigby] with a 310grain bullet, soft and solid, aat 2150fps, was very well thought of by those who used it.
I would develop a load with Woodleigh 310 grain solids, it would be good insurance.

Year before last I shot about 20 head of plainsgame from Bushbuck to Eland with my Searcy Mauser in 416 Rem cal. in RSA, then did some meat hunting for the concession, then up to Tanzania and shot 3 Buffalo, Zebra, Hartebeeste, Impala and Nyasaland Wildebeest...

I never got the impression that I was over gunned or undergunned...It worked very well for me with little meat damage and quick kills and of course it worked fine on Buffalo...I would not hesitate to do it again...I was wondering at the time why I didn't sell all my guns and just hunt with the 416...

I still love hunting plainsgame, especially Kudu and Eland..Kudu are a beatifull and challanging animal and Eland are so damn good to eat....The Bushbuck is great sport and spunky in a corner...I love hunting the Mountain Rhebok and Mt. Reedbuck in the high mountains of RSA, that is a test of skill and endurance...

Heck, as long as I am hunting I really don't care what it is...I don't care for sitting in blinds, but will do so if I have no other alternative...beats sitting in a bar anyday.

Jorge,

One of my friends leaves tomorrow to hunt with John Sharp. He is doing a plainsgame only hunt and will only be taking one rifle, a M70 in 300 Win Mag. He is shooting 200 grain Swift A-Frames in factory Federal Ammo. John Sharp told him it should be fine for everything he is going after.

As I mentioned before, I will carry my 416 Rigby until I get a buffalo on the ground. After that, I will go to my Pre-64 M70 300 H&H loaded with 220 grain Nosler Partitions at a chronographed 2,700 fps. I will also carry a few rounds loaded with 180 grain Barnes Triple Shocks. These bullets shoot exactly 2" higher than the 220 grain Partitions (which are sighted in for 100 yards) and are moving along at just over 3,000 fps.

My friend N'gagi and I leave on August 12th (his 1st safari, my 2nd). Can't wait!!!

Tim

Shumba: Your friend will hunt the Malangani Conservancy and that caliber/bullet combo is John's favorite for the area. I took almost everything with my 375, except the impala and Warthog where I used my 300 Weatherby and 180gr Hornadys which although put both animals down with authority, the recovered bullets solidified my views on using only premium bullets from then on. Just curious, but what is your formula for your 180gr TSXs in your 300 H&H? I use 65gr of IMR 4350 and get right at 2950. jorge

Ditto MLindsey

My first two trips to Africa, I used my 375 H&H as my plains game rifle. Last trip I carried bow only. I figure I'm more likely to be killed on the way to the hunt than while hunting.

Jorge,
I use 73 grs. of 4831 and the 200 gr. Nosler for 3090 FPS , 70 grs. with the 220 gr. Nosler for 2770 FPS in my 26 inch barrel pre 64 M-70 300 H&H..BUT I have a supply of old WW 2 surplus 4831 (4350 Data Powder)from a 150 lb. ss canister, the stuff that Jack O'Connor got 62 grs of in his .270...

With todays H4831 you must cut that load by 2 grs. or there abouts...which I have done on ocassion and got less velocity but a bit more than I can get with 4350...for what its worth.

Thanks for the info Ray. I was aware that the new H-4831 is a bit different than the older stuff. I know I'm not breaking 2950 with 65gr of IMR-4350, but that pre-war H&H of mine just loves that load with Nosler Partitions. I've shown photos before but I get a bit less than 1" groups at 200 yards! Plus at 100 the 180 and 200 NPs shoot exactly to the same POI and at 200 the 200s are about 2" lower. Can't beat that! jorge

This debate reminds me of the 375 H&H for everything discussion. Works for most everybody. Of course the one's it doesn't work for aren't around to type, or argue...

s

Truth be Socs that if a man has a 300 and a 375 H&H, he doesn't really need anyhthing else except a 222, 22 L.R. and a 12 ga. shotgun....

Mac, with all that hunting behind you, you must surely recognize the long-range superiority of a .300 over the .375! But maybe I'm too much of a western-U.S. type hunter for my own good!

Ray, so simple, but so true, that basic battery of cartridges you listed will truly do it all. To heck with the fuss and feathers, grab a rifle or two, a couple of boxes of cartridges, and go hunting.

Although I could build a case for substituting a .416 Rem. for the .375!

AD

Allen,

As you know I have never been to Africa but I would wager I have shot more small game with big bores than most people on this forum.

In my experience for animals likes roos and pigs I would say I have done about as well with the 375 (and also 458 with 400s) as the 270 and 300 Win BUT with an exception and I think this esception would apply to Africa.

On a shooting trip there is no question that the hits to shots fired is better with the 270 and 300 as compared to the 375 and up FOR the first day or so of shooting and then you seem to get onto the animals with about any calibre. But that first day of shooting probably involves more shots than you would get in 6 trips to Africa.

One of the problems with bigger bores is that they are much more influenced by how the gun is rested or held and I think this comes into play for the first few shots.

So with limited shooting on smaller animals I would take the 270 or 300 over the 375 and bigger.

Mike

Socrates
Gee, but if you only own a few guns it simplifies life too much! I currently own
.22 lr - a CZ 452, a Sears bolt action, and a BSA Martini
7x57 mmm - a CZ 22F and a CZ 550
.30-06- an EAA Under/Over rifle
.300 Ultramag- Winchester 70
8x57- WWII Mauser unmodified (Grandfather's war trophy)
8x60S - a sporterized Mauser
.35 Whelen- a Remington 7600 pump with a 19" barrel
.376 Steyr- a Steyr Prohunter
.416 Rem- Winchester 70
.45-70- a Pedersoli double and a replica Sharps
.577/450- a Mark III Infantry rifle and a Mark IV carbine
12 Gauge- a Remington 870

So if I only need a .300, .375 (.376), .222, .22lr and 12 gauge what do I do with the rest? The problem I have is that I don't stick with one rifle long enough as I like to shoot them all.
I used to be so indecisive but now I am just not sure!
Jason